VSR's

[ranmar850]

So, another VSR failure back in June. In this boat, they are only lasting about 18 months. Previously, I had zero problems with this generic type of VSR, and the only real factors I can see is that I am now have a larger motor and more electronics to run.
Current arrangement as below, Start and House switches, with a parallelling switch to bypass the VSR ( blue item, on the right as viewed) if needed.




The only conclusion i can come to is that , although most of these things are "rated" for 140 amps, they just don't like a surge of current which comes about when the House battery is down a bit and you start the motor and the state of charge of the House battery calls for some real charging current. I'm sure the 150 Merc 4-stroke has a bigger alternator than the 90 2stroke or 115 4-stroke Yam on the other boats. Not that I tend to run it right down in normal operation, as I have a voltage readout for House on one of the MFD's, and it is usually quite healthy after several hours of shut down and anchored. But usually down quite a bit after anchoring up late afternoon and running fridge, etc until well after the sun has risen next morning. Also there is the operation of both the anchor winch and, in season, the electric capstan for the craypot winch. Both of these are always operated with the motor running, and doubtless the VSR closed, so effectively, I am probably drawing all that current straight through the VSR from the alternator.

So, to sum it up, these things are probably getting overstressed in this type of operation. When they fail, no big deal--I always pick it up from the voltage display on the screen, charge starts to get erratic, then slowly drains. So I close the parallelling switch and run it in old-fashioned Both until I get a replacement.

So I am looking at alternatives. The one that currently stands out is a Redarc model normally used in 4 WD applications. I had one of these for 10 years in my last ute with zero problems, although the useage was different.



Looking at the specs, whilst they are only rated at 100 amps continuous, they have an inrush rating of 400 amps. The 200 amp model is for applications like vehicle winches, and they are good for something like 600 amps inrush. The cad-plated brackets are not the best for a boat, just have to keep them well-sprayed.
Has anyone else used these in this sort of application, or have any other ideas?

[NAGG]

This might be worth looking at - Enerdrive 160A (Continuous) VSR - It's what I used in my Seajay after replacing my BEP

Chris

[Lovey80]

While I don't have the foggiest as to why your VSR is failing. I was surprised to learn with my latest re-wire when I installed a VSR with an LED indicator that the VSR remained in closed circuit pretty much all the time. Once the start battery hits 13.4 Volts the VSR will parallels both batteries and remain paralleled until both are at 12.8v when the VSR disconnects and isolates the start battery. That means effectively you have one large battery for most of the time until you draw both down to 12.8v.

If that is also your house battery down the back, is it safe to say there are some fairly long runs of cable from it to your anchor winch and pot hauler capstan? Could it be possible that when those are in operation they are getting warm and affecting your VSR?

[Dignity]

Ranmar, does your motor have an auxiliary charging circuit, my 150hp Yammy does. It does split the number of amps but I can live with that. I run the start battery with only the outboard, trim tabs and the anchor winch (it needs grunt and the motor running to work efficiently).

The auxiliary circuit runs the house battery. Both have their own circuits and CB's but I do have the 1,2,both setup as a backup. Start the motor and both batteries are being charged independently and from the readout I can see where the voltage input is higher on the battery that is discharged the most, beats having a VSR due to all the issues I've read with them and I haven't had an issue with this setup since I installed it a couple of years ago (Scottar was who suggested it at the time - and still very grateful).

This setup is simple and that's how I like it as batteries and their requirements are just too much for my poor head to get around. BTW love your neat work with the cabling.

[stevej]

have you cut one open and looked for corrosion , i wouldn't exactly call where they are out of the weather or safe from a hosing

[NAGG]

have you cut one open and looked for corrosion , i wouldn't exactly call where they are out of the weather or safe from a hosing

I was thinking the same ...... that's a lot of exposure there

chris

[frank100]

My 2c , I agree with stevej and nagg wiring looks like it may get wet from time to time, I have had corrosion in an isolator before.

Frank

[Iron Maiden]

I believe the pic shown is when the hinged door that its all mounted on is down and the switches in fact face the floor of the boat when back in place.

[scottar]

I currently run dual output charging but am in the the planning stages of going to lithium house and a DC to DC charger - most likely the Enerdrive product due to warranty and location. If you want to stick with a VSR, Intervolt has one that is solid state - not cheap at around $200 but it gets away from what I would expect kills most VSR's - burnt or pitted contacts. That said they are an electronic device (and a cheaap one at that in a lot of cases). I've used the Redarc products in 4wd's - one of which has now been in service for near enough to 20 years under bonnet. If you go this way you could always find an adaptable box to put it in to keep the water off. I have used the 24 volt Baintech ones on some Nanni diesels in the company workboat which are now a couple of years old with zero issues too.

[ranmar850]

I believe the pic shown is when the hinged door that its' all mounted on is down and the switches in fact face the floor of the boat when back in place.

The battery switches shown in the picture are in the open position. The flap hinges at the back and latches up at the front, so that everything is actually facing upwards into a dry void when running.

[ranmar850]

While I don't have the foggiest as to why your VSR is failing. I was surprised to learn with my latest re-wire when I installed a VSR with an LED indicator that the VSR remained in closed circuit pretty much all the time. Once the start battery hits 13.4 Volts the VSR will parallels both batteries and remain paralleled until both are at 12.8v when the VSR disconnects and isolates the start battery. That means effectively you have one large battery for most of the time until you draw both down to 12.8v.

Yes, I understand that, thats how VSR's keep things charged. When you hit the starter, the voltage on the start battery should drop below the 12.8 v instantly which will cause the VSR to disconnect, BUT, and this is a big But, reading the specs of some VSR's, there can be a delay before disconnection. Some specify as much as 5 seconds. So you could be drawing start current via the VSR every single time you start after only a short shutdown , if the the VSR is still closed.

If that is also your house battery down the back, is it safe to say there are some fairly long runs of cable from it to your anchor winch and pot hauler capstan? Could it be possible that when those are in operation they are getting warm and affecting your VSR?

yes, they are long runs, but they are suitably sized for length of run. IIRC, I have 25mm2 from breaker at battery to winch solenoid then to winch itself. The pot winch is on 16mm2, but that is a very short run, no more than 2 metres .

[Lovey80]

yes, they are long runs, but they are suitably sized for length of run. IIRC, I have 25mm2 from breaker at battery to winch solenoid then to winch itself. The pot winch is on 16mm2, but that is a very short run, no more than 2 metres .

I don’t think your first statement is correct. If they are in parallel, when you hit the starter motor it will draw from both batteries. My previous rig didn’t have the LED light on the VSR with a cranking battery and an AGM, so it’s hard to know for sure. Grand_Marlin did that wiring job at the end of 2008 I think, and the VSR is still working beautifully.

But for the re-wire I just did that does have the LED connecting two lithium’s. Even if I’m down around 13.2v the VSR stays with a closed circuit when I’m starting every time.

There’s a lot of differences between our set-ups of course. My engine is nearly 1/3 the size of yours and would draw a lot less on staring and the lithium’s have a flatter discharge curve on voltage. If both those batteries of yours are fairly full I wouldn’t expect them to drop below 12.8v on start up. Scottar will be able to answer that one.

What winch and capstan are you running?

[brett62]

I currently run dual output charging but am in the the planning stages of going to lithium house and a DC to DC charger - most likely the Enerdrive product due to warranty and location. If you want to stick with a VSR, Intervolt has one that is solid state - not cheap at around $200 but it gets away from what I would expect kills most VSR's - burnt or pitted contacts. That said they are an electronic device (and a cheaap one at that in a lot of cases). I've used the Redarc products in 4wd's - one of which has now been in service for near enough to 20 years under bonnet. If you go this way you could always find an adaptable box to put it in to keep the water off. I have used the 24 volt Baintech ones on some Nanni diesels in the company workboat which are now a couple of years old with zero issues too.

Scott I am going to build a 400 amp lithium house bank for the project boat and was looking at the dc/dc enerdrive gear and now going with victron gear. They have 5 year warranty and the ability to network and more control over charging etc. Have you looked at them as I would be interested on your thoughts.

ranmar I have had a few VSR's loose the plot over the years and decided on the project boat to not go with one again. I researched on a few different set ups and the cost was not much less than installing a DC/DC set up. Now that I am going lithium it's a no brainier to me. What amps does your outboard out put. There is many different set ups and equipment that do a much better job then a VSR, cost a little more but you get what you pay for.

[ranmar850]

I don’t think your first statement is correct. If they are in parallel, when you hit the starter motor it will draw from both batteries. My previous rig didn’t have the LED light on the VSR with a cranking battery and an AGM, so it’s hard to know for sure. Grand_Marlin did that wiring job at the end of 2008 I think, and the VSR is still working beautifully.

But for the re-wire I just did that does have the LED connecting two lithium’s. Even if I’m down around 13.2v the VSR stays with a closed circuit when I’m starting every time.

There’s a lot of differences between our set-ups of course. My engine is nearly 1/3 the size of yours and would draw a lot less on staring and the lithium’s have a flatter discharge curve on voltage. If both those batteries of yours are fairly full I wouldn’t expect them to drop below 12.8v on start up. Scottar will be able to answer that one.

What winch and capstan are you running?

Not sure what you mean by my first statement is not correct? The cable sizes quoted are purely to feed those loads, not for starting. Both batteries are under the splashwell, so very short runs on starting. . 25mm2 for a 6.5 metre)-yes, count that as 13m) is well within recommended cable size for that winch, as is the 16mm2 for the capstan. Yes, I understand that they are operating in parallel when the VSR is closed, and overall current flow to the starter will theoretically be halved for each battery, assuming internal resistance is the same. But the very act of cranking the motor SHOULD cause the VSR to disconnect, meaning I am only drawing from Start. However, if there is a built-in lag before opening, it may mean that I am effectively drawing from both. But here is something else to think about --if they are both in play, then the VSR disconnects during cranking, you are effectively opening it under a high load. You may be opening it under a load of 150 amps if your motor draws 300 amps cranking. If they are not meant as a load break rated device, this must shorten their life. Very few systems, in my experience, will fail to drop under 12v during the act of cranking. if ypou have been sitting anchored with everything running for a while, the vSR will disconnect. So you are only drawing from Start on engine start. But, if you shut down for a short period, all your engine-off draw ( fridge, MFD's, radio, etc) will be coming from both batteries. So, to drop below the 12.8v disconnect might take a while. So a quick restart will likely see the above scenario.
I am running a Tuffwinch 240HC anchor winch ( compares to Lonestar GX3) and a Maxwell Anchormax capstan for the pot pulling.

[Lovey80]

Not sure what you mean by my first statement is not correct? The cable sizes quoted are purely to feed those loads, not for starting. Both batteries are under the splashwell, so very short runs on starting. . 25mm2 for a 6.5 metre)-yes, count that as 13m) is well within recommended cable size for that winch, as is the 16mm2 for the capstan. Yes, I understand that they are operating in parallel when the VSR is closed, and overall current flow to the starter will theoretically be halved for each battery, assuming internal resistance is the same. But the very act of cranking the motor SHOULD cause the VSR to disconnect, meaning I am only drawing from Start. However, if there is a built-in lag before opening, it may mean that I am effectively drawing from both. But here is something else to think about --if they are both in play, then the VSR disconnects during cranking, you are effectively opening it under a high load. You may be opening it under a load of 150 amps if your motor draws 300 amps cranking. If they are not meant as a load break rated device, this must shorten their life. Very few systems, in my experience, will fail to drop under 12v during the act of cranking. if ypou have been sitting anchored with everything running for a while, the vSR will disconnect. So you are only drawing from Start on engine start. But, if you shut down for a short period, all your engine-off draw ( fridge, MFD's, radio, etc) will be coming from both batteries. So, to drop below the 12.8v disconnect might take a while. So a quick restart will likely see the above scenario.
I am running a Tuffwinch 240HC anchor winch ( compares to Lonestar GX3) and a Maxwell Anchormax capstan for the pot pulling.

Yes, I understand that, thats how VSR's keep things charged. When you hit the starter, the voltage on the start battery should drop below the 12.8 v instantly which will cause the VSR to disconnect,

sorry I know how that got confusing. This is the part I was referring to. You may be correct with lead acid batteries. It’s certainly not with lithium’s. I just would have thought that considering both batteries are fairly short runs to the starter motor, and the fact they are in parallel if they’re above 12.8v at the time you turn the key, that the voltage drop would effectively halve across both batteries. As the draw is split between the two.

In the absence of a battery monitor or shunt, I guess the only way to know is to put a voltmeter on them when they are charged and test the voltage drop?