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Thread: Tailor Stocks Hanging by a Thread

  1. #76

    Re: Tailor Stocks Hanging by a Thread

    Originally Posted by manta man
    Well i"ll go for the 10 Tailor and 40cm, also close all Netting from Nygala to the Cape for a period of 3 months per year. Get rid of the Netters out of the Great Sandy Straights forever. Oh and while i"m here, raise the Legal Length of Whiting and Bream to 27cms anything smaller is a Joke.
    I'm in for that change also no probs. Great suggestion Manta Man as who is ever going to eat more than 10 Tailor per day anyway. If you are fishing with a mate that's 20!

    I just got back from Double Island Point where I took a group of 'at risk' boys from a school on the Brissy Northside up for 3 days camping and fishing. See http://www.su-connect.org.au/ for details of the program I help run.

    On the way up we dropped in at one of the tackle shops at Tewantin to buy some pillies and asked how things were up at Teewah. The response was not promising. The owner told us that Pro Netters had been working the beach several days last week with their mullet gill nets. He explained that their method was to drive along the beach with a net attached to the bull bar and the other end of the gill net was attached to a jet boat that shot out though the waves and circled around and back to the shore for a haul. This was then done over and over down the beach wherever they could spot the schools. Sounded very effective and so instead of buying a 4 kg I backed off and got a 2kg block of pilchards as I was a tad concerned.

    The DI lagoon I knew was already buggered by these guys from doing their hauling and now it sounded like Teewah was gone too!

    So how the heck am I going to get these boys onto a fish up here I wondered??

    Well first we tried some prime beach gutters using pippies in the hope of snaring a dart as that normally works. Well straight up that was a total fail with almost no touches on fresh pippies.

    So knowing the lagoon is out and now Teewah I was only left with DI Point itself as netting is banned within 500mtrs of the rocks as its a Dugong habitat area?! Hooray at least something is protected and we may have a show!!

    Not happy about this idea as its more dangerous and meant I could not allow boys to cast (due to getting snagged) or get near the edge of the rocks etc.

    But onto some safer rocks we went in a reasonably low swell (about 2 foot) and on Thursday arvo we managed about 6 Tailor with only one going legal at 42cm but there was plenty of smiles from the lads as they landed their first fighting Tailor. An awesome moment and one I'm sure many of you can still remember.

    Next morning we went out further due to a high tide forcing us off the close in rocks and though we only caught 1 more Tailor that day we managed to get 2 more small groups of boys (one boy at a time and carefully/closely monitored) on to a heap of dart (good ones over 40cm in many cases), a few Tarwine, 1 keeper bream and one nice whiting.

    Conditions out there with a howling southerly (at our back) were amazing and we watched as Dolphins, Eagles, Sea Birds and Turtles came by and all said gidday. Gotta love our Country that we can still get out and enjoy stuff like this and expose the next generation to the joys of fishing and our coastal environment.

    All in all the trip was saved but we fished hard all day last Friday out at one of the best rock spots DI Point has to offer and all we got was 1 Tailor for our troubles (though we did focus on dart once we realised they were there). Saw some guys tossing lures and Pillies further out where its more risky and they got a few more but nothing of size.

    So there it is. Up to date info straight from the beaches and rocks we are trying to protect for future generations.

    I for one am committed to the idea of Recreational Fishing Havens being introduced in Queensland and I hope that we can all find a way to agree on the need for these, shut down and buy out the beach netters and leave something for kids like the ones I take away.

    If you guys are concerned about the greenies shutting us down by sneakily introducing green zones that turn into 'no fishing zones' then PM Lindsay with your ideas. Maybe you don't want him to represent you with fisheries but I see a guy who is sold out and doing the best he can with a very limited resource base and I applaud his efforts.

    Sure some of you may know more due to your background, training and life experience but lets find a way to help each other to work together to make RFH's happen! If we don't then scenes like what I'm writing about could became a thing of the past.

    The last night around the camp fire was precious. Most of these boys have tough life circumstances and several said that the fishing was the highlight of their camp and half had never caught a fish let alone eating them fresh around the fire. They loved it and we now have some new addicts that will potentially join web sites like this in future years and have an alternative to computer games, gangs and drugs.

    Hopefully we can all work together and create a future for these guys,

    Cheers,

    Mal

  2. #77
    Ausfish Silver Member
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    Re: Tailor Stocks Hanging by a Thread

    Well done Malby, you and the Boys sound like you always have an enjoyable experience, and that is "What It"s All About". Cheers Manta Man.

  3. #78

    Re: Tailor Stocks Hanging by a Thread

    "New evidence suggests that Tailor may be responsible for a spout of ciguatera poisioning deaths in SE Queensland"

    problem solved?

  4. #79

    Re: Tailor Stocks Hanging by a Thread

    I am disturbed by the quality of debate that takes place, when someone gets it into their head, that overfishing is the only, or, even major, cause of a fall in fishing takes.

    There are many other contributions to be considered before the self flogging and further Government restriction begins.

    Here is a short but probably not complete list using tailor as an example.

    1. Reduction of bait fish: It is well known that pilchards are a large part of the coastal tailor diet. There has been a significant reduction in the pilchard population after they were hit with a virus, a couple of years ago. Anecdotally, there has been a significant reduction in observed schools of pilchards migrating along the coast. Tailor is a high level predator and the lower catch numbers may be a consequence of less available food, close to the coast.

    2. Fish population cycles: It has long been known that fish population numbers ebb and flow as a sum of all the factors affecting them. Cycles as long as forty years have been observed for other species. It may also apply to tailor. If one does not eyeball a straight trend line on the tailor take statistics, it is possible to observe one and half 40 year cycles. This theory needs research over a couple of cycles to be confirmed.

    3. Coastal Development: Changes to the coastal fish habitats due to development. The mangroves surrounding many of the local nurseries have been depleted with progressive development. This may be affecting tailor nurseries and other bait fish that support tailor growth.

    4. The 10 year Drought: The decade long drought on land must have had an effect on fish nurseries and on nutrients fed in to the coastal seas, through lower river and nutrient flows.

    5. Floods following the drought: The massive rains, which followed the drought, not only added significant fresh water to coastal regions, but also recharged the ground water tables of the sandy coastlines. The combination of the floods and the significantly increased runoff from overcharged sandy coastlines must have changed the salinity on the beaches and estuaries. This would probably have a greater affect on the baitfish, than upper predators such as tailor. Off shore pro fishermen, who don't net tailor, have reported large schools of tailor travelling about 400 metres out to sea, maybe following the path of baitfish in saltier water?

    5. I am sure the forum could add to this list.

  5. #80

    Re: Tailor Stocks Hanging by a Thread

    Just in case anybody cares to think that Ellemcbeast might have any sort of case....

    the wet seasons are no good for tailor and neither are the dry ones. The attached graph (Fraser/Cooloola Yield & Rainfall) probably speaks for itself in this regard.

    By August and September when the bulk of tailor are taken both recreationally and commercially, the surf is crystal clear. The fresh influence is neglible and can only be an enhancing factor, but I'll argue this point further if required.

    Pilchards - (sardinops sagax) actually proliferate following floods due to connectivity from the land and anecdotally have been seen in massive shoals inshore (10 metres out from the beach) since the 2007 floods during late winter and spring in the Cooloola/Fraser region. Unfortunately, these shoals haven't been attended by predators of any variety which is of very significant concern.
    The pilchard virus referred to which actually occurred about a decade ago and in southern W.A. and S.A. waters where the eastern Australian migration of tailor does not occur, is of no relevance and should not be mentioned as relevant. These populations have since recovered anyway and well and truly by 2011/12.

    Btw - anchovy are just as significant a food resource for tailor on their southern feeding migration and they also have been anecdotally observed as being in a healthy population state and also benefit from connectivity.



    I won't dispute the point regarding habitat destruction in tailor nursery grounds being a potential factor. However,if this is the cause of the collapse, then we are not going to see a recovery by doing nothing elsewhere as this scenario of habitat depletion is unchangeable and collapses in other species would also be concerning us at this present time - one would expect. Recovery of Sydney Hbr fish pops does also create substantial doubt that this is of major significance.

    I expect that there is a more offshore migration of tailor and so do FQ. Should this be the case then 1/ they shouldn't be there and their population is unlikely to be sustainable there, and repercussions to offshore species inundated by the tailor are likely - and 2/ they aren't of much value to shore based anglers or beach seiners when they're offshore. We need to resurrect their inshore spawning migration for a number of reasons and this can be done. I doubt however that this offshore migration of 'hidden' fish is of any substantial size and can be relied upon to sustain the species in the long term.

    It wouldn't be hard to perceive that we are overfishing tailor when it is documented that 80% of fish available to the fishery are taken by fishers each year - wouldn't you think?
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Lucky_Phill; 01-08-2013 at 02:41 PM.

  6. #81

    Re: Tailor Stocks Hanging by a Thread

    I thought your initial discussion had significant merit and needed to be considered in the totality of all contributing factors. I have not excluded fishing pressure as a contributory factor, but it is one factor.

    The fact that the greatest concentration of tailor fisherman on Fraser Island coincides with major tailor aggregations is of course going to have an effect on tailor populations. The main reason tailor aggregate is to get together to procreate the species. If the majority of tailor are taken at this time then the number of fecund fish is bound to be reduced and future populations will be affected.

    It would be interesting to see if a closed season on Fraser Island during aggregation times would result in a marked increase in tailor numbers in future years?
    Good grief! An alternative suggestion to permanent Government imposed bag limits?

    Despite the fact that pilchards the appeared to have recovered and are in a healthy state in the southern ocean, they have not recovered on the east coast. There are many less travelling schools today than a decade ago. Just talk to fishermen in northern NSW to confirm this.

    The cause and effect of a lower tailor population because of lower bait numbers is probably not likely to be correlated in real time. The effects are probably delayed, and, if there is a link, then the effects are likely to be observed later anyway.

    The graph on the comparison of tailor take with annual rainfall also confuses the facts. A high rainfall for a full year may not correlate with baitfish and tailor migrations close to the coast at the time of the rain, or at the time of floods. This needs more detailed evaluation.

    The “straight trend lines” on the graph of tailor take from 1945 to 2011 appear to be eyeballed and not statistically drawn trend lines. There appears to be a bell curve of the fish takes from 1945 to the mid-eighties, but without more data it is difficult to be certain. That is why a longer data set that would cover any long period cyclicity would help the interpretation here.
    Last edited by Lucky_Phill; 01-08-2013 at 02:42 PM.

  7. #82

    Re: Tailor Stocks Hanging by a Thread

    Are the yields in the charts taken from sales figures or log books?

  8. #83

    Re: Tailor Stocks Hanging by a Thread

    Can we please stick to the topic and keep personal attacks / sledges out of this thread.

    First and Last warning to all.



    Cheers LP
    Kingfisher Painting Solutions:- Domestic and Commercial.

    For further information, contact details, quotes or advice - Click Here





  9. #84

    Re: Tailor Stocks Hanging by a Thread

    As I attempted to point out earlier, one of the problems with that data is that it doesnt come from the one original source, and at various points in time, the data collection methods have also changed, and changes were made such as introducing TAC's, changing min legal sizes, plus there have been changes in log book practices and enforcement, and so on. There is quite an extensive history in behind that data.

    You actually need to delve into the history behind the data to really understand what you are looking at.

    So, what that means is that presenting that kind of data on one graph as if it was a continuium of the same data, without pointing out the points at which these kinds of changes happened, and without providing an explaination of how those changes might have affected the integrity of the picture painted by the graph overall, is really not satisfactory practice at all.

    The result is that the "story" being told by the graphs is quite likely to not be what it appears to be, if that makes sense!

    The fisheries specialists do all of that when they assess the status of the stock, or they should do that, and it will influence their management decisions.

    Ellemcbeast - the suggestion you made re a tailor closure during spawning at Fraser Island - did you not know that exactly that has now been happening for quite a few years? In fact the spawning closure is on right now!

    Plus, it was only a couple of years ago that recreational tailor bag limits were reduced to their current levels, along with a size increase to 35cm. That needs some time to play out over a few cycles and new data gathered to see the effect on stocks.

    We should all definitely be demanding that good, robust science be the basis of management decisions that ensure the sustainability of all fish species. If that means changes to size or bag limits, then I, for one, would support it.

    To be honest, what you, me or anyone else "thinks" might be a good idea to do, or what we would find personally acceptable, doesn't fall under the heading of "good science".

    It's fun to debate those things, but you only have to look at the recent proposals for most bag limits being halved in NSW and which appear to now be based on some form of "socail acceptability or reasonableness" rather than the science of good fisheries management, to see where that approach could lead. Not good.

    What we dont want is knee-jerk reactions from our politicians that are brought on by indivuduals or groups with a particular personal perspective or agenda, however well-intentioned that might be.

    Cheers

    ML
    Note to self: Don't argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience....

  10. #85

    Re: Tailor Stocks Hanging by a Thread

    I've been following this thread and I have to say I'm no tailor expert, and I'm not going to engage in the raging arguments above.
    This is just from my personally observation, I do fish for tailor and have done so for along time and I do believe in conservation of a fantastic sport fish that they are.
    Over the last 10 or so years I have taken boat and jetski out on the great sandy strait spit in August and Sept and I can tell you that. The closed season for tailor should cover this area also, Its good that the rock at indian and waddy are closed during spawning season as they congregate there, but I'm pretty sure they actually do their thing out on the spit.
    For realistic management of this species the area that needed protection the most isn't even protected.
    Just my 5cent as we no longer uses 2 cents
    Humility is not a weather condition.

  11. #86

    Re: Tailor Stocks Hanging by a Thread

    Check out the catalyst (ABC ) article on predator avoidance training for mullaway fingerlings for release .

  12. #87

    Re: Tailor Stocks Hanging by a Thread

    Interesting read on the Alvey Reels facebook page..........

    I have copied below fyi,





    A recent Story in the Noosa News and Ipswich QT .We need to manage our fisheries to ensure their future. Beach NETTING: Cr Frank Pardon wants commercial takes on Noosa North Shore banned. Brett Wortman
    A DISGUSTED Councillor Frank Pardon has renewed his call for a ban on commercial fishing on Noosa North Shore after two separate incidents involving what he regards as overkill of local marine stocks. One involves the ripping out of 30 tonnes of mullet from local waters two weekends ago, where Cr Pardon said the fish ended up being worthless because of the way the catch was handled.
    The councillor said he saw the mullet in the nets on the Sunday and was told by an industry source that the 30-tonne catch was totally spoiled because of the amount of time it took to haul them in. "I've got this straight from the horse's mouth - they were in the nets around 10 (pm Saturday) and they did not get the fish out until about 12 the next day."
    He believed it was a combination of having too many fish in the nets and the incoming tide that led them to be crushed to the extent they had no scales left. "These sort of netting practices are not sustainable, especially when you take them to the processor and the processor rejects them because they've been pulverised," Cr Pardon said.
    "A friend of mine who was actually given some of these mullet said they were mush - they had not a scale on them." And in another instance not related to the mullet catch, on the same weekend he alerted local fishing authorities to the illegal take of 700 pipis by a couple of persons in a four-wheel drive 12 km along Noosa North Shore. The allowed limit for the popular food and bait is 50.
    "My friend had driven up there and saw this happening and said Frank, 'what can I do about it?'," Cr Pardon said. "When I arrived the fisheries patrol was there. They went north from there and got another lot so good on them for responding like that. "They went up the beach and found another lot with too many pipis as well," Cr Pardon said. The long-time advocate for commercial fishing licence buy-outs on the North Shore said he had spoken some weeks back to the Fisheries Minister John McVeigh concerning this issue and "told him I'll be back". "I want a buy-out with compensation.
    "No one's talking about kicking anyone out (without remuneration), but we didn't become a biosphere to do unsustainable practices," Cr Pardon said.

  13. #88

    Re: Tailor Stocks Hanging by a Thread

    Has been a fair amount of discussion re the 30 tonne of mullet that allegedly were 'wasted'. While the commercial fishers involved and Markwells Seafood deny that any fish were 'wasted' I don't believe that anyone has as yet brought up the real issue associated here.It is now known that Markwells Seafood purchased the entire catch and state that no fish were 'wasted', contrary to the claims by Councillor Frank Pardon. However, it depends on what one means when using the term 'wasted'. It is not uncommon with large hauls of mullet that a percentage of the catch are damaged, either as a result of being crushed and tumbled in the net or due to excessive time elapsing before the fish are iced or processed. Those fish that are damaged and not suitable for sale for human consumption or bait are often sold to be used as fertiliser. Is the use of wild caught fish being used as fertiliser a 'waste'? Not according to Markwells or the relevant commercial fishers, but I'd be fairly confident that the rest of us see it as a waste. Thing is - this is not a one off event. It happens each mullet season. As to the suggestion from the commercial sector that mullet netting on our beaches is providing fresh seafood to the local community - I'd say is a rather large stretching of the truth when Markwells purchase the lot and process the catch in NSW to be sold to southern markets. Some fish might eventually end up in Noosa Woolworths and Coles, but most of the mullet available to consumers in this region come from the Noosa River and lakes.Of course, from my perspective, I see that the issue is not so much about the sustainability of the mullet fishery, but the sustainability of the other species affected by mullet nets and the impact on recreational fishing during the course of the mullet season - several of the best weather months for beach fishing and when tailor and bream in particular would otherwise be available to anglers but rarely are because they are fleeing mullet nets and especially hauls of this size. Rando - talked at length with Culum Brown following the Catalyst story on jewfish fingerling training. Which by the way isn't a new thing ... Canadian scientists have been training Atlantic salmon fingerlings for many years. The reality is with stocking programs that released fingerlings do not have innate recognition of natural predators and high percentages of all fingerlings of all species are predated upon before they reach maturity. Such training should ideally be applied to any restocking program whether it be in fresh or salt water. Mortality rates of untrained fingerlings are stated as being around 90% and the main beneficiaries are often invasive species which become well fed and reproduce above levels that would otherwise occur. Culum, by the way, agrees entirely with my thoughts on the netting of fish and the flight reactions that occur. But then, the applicable science states that fish must flee nets containing species of the same prey guild ... and I've watched them repeatedly doing just that.

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