MBAA Update on the Moreton Bay Marine Park Review

[Derek Bullock]

From Todays ABC

No decision yet on Moreton Bay green zones: Minister

Posted August 20, 2007 08:06:00

Queensland Environment Minister Lindy Nelson-Carr says there has been no decision to close areas of the Moreton Bay marine park to fishing.
A group of recreational fishers met at Shorncliffe in Brisbane's north-east yesterday over concerns that areas of the bay have already been earmarked for closure.
Scientists have said at least 10 per cent of the park should be turned over to protected green zones.
But Ms Nelson-Carr says a draft plan should be released in October and a decision on the park will not be made until next year.
"All I can say is it's based on some misinformation that's probably circulating," she said.
"We have ongoing consultation which is not over yet. No decision has been made about Moreton Bay.
"The only thing that I can say conclusively is that we want to protect the bay for the future."

[Greg P]

Maybe she needs to tell the EPA that

[flick]

It is all in the wording greg.

"there has been no decision to close areas of the Moreton Bay marine park to fishing."

That statement is true until it is policy. Just another way of dodging a bullet.

Jim

[SgBFish]

From Todays ABC

No decision yet on Moreton Bay green zones: Minister

Posted August 20, 2007 08:06:00

Queensland Environment Minister Lindy Nelson-Carr says there has been no decision to close areas of the Moreton Bay marine park to fishing.
A group of recreational fishers met at Shorncliffe in Brisbane's north-east yesterday over concerns that areas of the bay have already been earmarked for closure.
Scientists have said at least 10 per cent of the park should be turned over to protected green zones.
But Ms Nelson-Carr says a draft plan should be released in October and a decision on the park will not be made until next year.
"All I can say is it's based on some misinformation that's probably circulating," she said.
"We have ongoing consultation which is not over yet. No decision has been made about Moreton Bay.
"The only thing that I can say conclusively is that we want to protect the bay for the future."

Yes Minister but whose protecting the Bay form the Port of Brisbane who can continue to destroy habit and the EPA cannot touch them.

[timddo]

With all this happening, What can us normal fisho's do.

?????????

[PinHead]

refer to the EPA website: http://www.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/St....aspx?id=53391

This advice has been used to identify sites within Moreton Bay Marine Park that are worthy for consideration for greater protection, based on their environmental significance, and taking into account what people have told us about their use of particular areas,” Ms Nelson-Carr said.

“Now further discussion can occur with key marine park user groups to refine and prioritise these sites and the level of protection needed.

“During August, we are working with representatives from stakeholder groups to share knowledge about the special sites in Moreton Bay, and achieve a comprehensive understanding of what increased protection of these areas might mean for various groups. "

She is correct in that no decision has been made however the areas noted are those that the EPA assigned "experts" have identified as the various forms of areas thewy are interested in.

Evan (I cannot remember his full name) from the QGFA informed us at the meeting that EPA told him that these areas were non-negotiable. So who is the Minister listening to?

[PinHead]

With all this happening, What can us normal fisho's do.

?????????

Swamp your local member and the EPA with letters and emails outlining your concerns.

[Black_Rat]

"We have ongoing consultation which is not over yet. No decision has been made about Moreton Bay.

And look what happened to Hook Point and parts of Moreton Island

[lippa]

DATUM: GDA94Candidate Area NameIdDMS (Longitude)DMS (Latitude)Degrees Decimal Minutes (Longitude)Degrees Decimal Minutes (Latitude)Decimal Degrees (Longitude)Decimal Degrees (Latitude)Cherubs Cave/Henderson Rock9153º 29‘ 26"27º 10‘ 8"153° 29.43‘27° 10.13‘153.49042-27.1689Cherubs Cave/Henderson Rock9153º 25‘ 42"27º 10‘ 8"153° 25.7‘27° 10.13‘153.42837-27.1689Cherubs Cave/Henderson Rock9153º 26‘ 39"27º 6‘ 29"153° 26.64‘27° 6.48‘153.44408-27.10798Cherubs Cave/Henderson Rock9153º 29‘ 26"27º 6‘ 29"153° 29.44‘27° 6.48‘153.49064-27.10798Cherubs Cave/Henderson Rock9153º 29‘ 26"27º 10‘ 8"153° 29.43‘27° 10.13‘153.49042-27.1689Cox Bank25153º 17‘ 1"27º 32‘ 5"153° 17.02‘27° 32.09‘153.28362-27.53483Cox Bank25153º 18‘ 27"27º 32‘ 42"153° 18.46‘27° 32.71‘153.30761-27.54512Cox Bank25153º 18‘ 27"27º 33‘ 53"153° 18.46‘27° 33.88‘153.30761-27.56465Crab Island/Blue Hole17A153º 23‘ 57"27º 18‘ 23"153° 23.95‘27° 18.39‘153.39923-27.30647Crab Island/Blue Hole17A153º 24‘ 32"27º 19‘ 50"153° 24.54‘27° 19.83‘153.409-27.33058Crab Island/Blue Hole17A153º 24‘ 32"27º 22‘ 5"153° 24.53‘27° 22.09‘153.40889-27.36816Crab Island/Blue Hole17A153º 21‘ 60"27º 22‘ 6"153° 21.99‘27° 22.1‘153.36654-27.36827Crab Island/Blue Hole17A153º 21‘ 59"27º 18‘ 23"153° 21.99‘27° 18.39‘153.36643-27.30647Crab Island/Blue Hole17A153º 23‘ 57"27º 18‘ 23"153° 23.95‘27° 18.39‘153.39923-27.30647Crab Island/Blue Hole17B153º 23‘ 57"27º 18‘ 23"153° 23.95‘27° 18.39‘153.39923-27.30647Crab Island/Blue Hole17B153º 24‘ 32"27º 19‘ 50"153° 24.54‘27° 19.83‘153.409-27.33058Crab Island/Blue Hole17B153º 24‘ 32"27º 21‘ 2"153° 24.54‘27° 21.03‘153.409-27.35046Crab Island/Blue Hole17B153º 21‘ 4"27º 21‘ 1"153° 21.07‘27° 21.02‘153.35123-27.35035Crab Island/Blue Hole17B153º 21‘ 4"27º 18‘ 23"153° 21.07‘27° 18.39‘153.35123-27.30647Crab Island/Blue Hole17B153º 23‘ 57"27º 18‘ 23"153° 23.95‘27° 18.39‘153.39923-27.30647Deception Bay8153º 4‘ 43"27º 8‘ 29"153° 4.72‘27° 8.48‘153.07875-27.14136Deception Bay8153º 7‘ 13"27º 6‘ 33"153° 7.22‘27° 6.55‘153.12027-27.10919Deception Bay8153º 4‘ 43"27º 8‘ 29"153° 4.72‘27° 8.48‘153.07875-27.14136Deep offshore area13153º 30‘ 0"27º 14‘ 21"153° 30‘27° 14.35‘153.50005-27.23922Deep offshore area13153º 34‘ 31"27º 14‘ 27"153° 34.52‘27° 14.44‘153.5753-27.24075Deep offshore area13153º 34‘ 31"27º 15‘ 20"153° 34.52‘27° 15.34‘153.57527-27.25566Deep offshore area13153º 30‘ 0"27º 15‘ 24"153° 30‘27° 15.41‘153.5-27.25679Deep offshore area13153º 30‘ 0"27º 14‘ 21"153° 30‘27° 14.35‘153.50005-27.23922Deep offshore area19153º 29‘ 12"27º 20‘ 14"153° 29.21‘27° 20.23‘153.48676-27.33711Deep offshore area19153º 34‘ 15"27º 20‘ 14"153° 34.25‘27° 20.23‘153.57076-27.33711Deep offshore area19153º 34‘ 15"27º 22‘ 1"153° 34.25‘27° 22.01‘153.57076-27.36688Deep offshore area19153º 29‘ 12"27º 22‘ 1"153° 29.21‘27° 22.01‘153.48676-27.36688Deep offshore area19153º 29‘ 12"27º 20‘ 14"153° 29.21‘27° 20.23‘153.48676-27.33711Deep offshore area7153º 32‘ 33"27º 5‘ 60"153° 32.55‘27° 6‘153.54246-27.09997Deep offshore area7153º 30‘ 55"27º 5‘ 60"153° 30.92‘27° 6‘153.51531-27.09997Deep offshore area7153º 30‘ 53"27º 1‘ 31"153° 30.89‘27° 1.52‘153.51483-27.02538Deep offshore area7153º 31‘ 30"27º 1‘ 31"153° 31.51‘27° 1.52‘153.52512-27.02538Deep offshore area7153º 32‘ 33"27º 5‘ 60"153° 32.55‘27° 6‘153.54246-27.09997Flat Rock(Centroid) - Approximately 1200m buffer21153º 33‘ 4"27º 23‘ 25"153° 33.07‘27° 23.41‘153.55112-27.39021Flinders Reef (Centroid) - Approximately 500m buffer4153º 29‘ 7"26º 58‘ 44"153° 29.11‘26° 58.74‘153.48523-26.97894Heath Island5153º 23‘ 30"27º 1‘ 44"153° 23.49‘27° 1.73‘153.39158-27.02889Heath Island5153º 25‘ 55"27º 1‘ 44"153° 25.92‘27° 1.73‘153.43196-27.02889Heath Island5153º 25‘ 55"27º 2‘ 0"153° 25.92‘27° 2‘153.43196-27.03336Heath Island5153º 21‘ 47"27º 3‘ 49"153° 21.79‘27° 3.81‘153.36313-27.0635Heath Island5153º 21‘ 47"27º 2‘ 48"153° 21.79‘27° 2.8‘153.36313-27.04663Heath Island5153º 23‘ 30"27º 1‘ 44"153° 23.49‘27° 1.73‘153.39158-27.02889McCoys Creek33153º 22‘ 39"27º 49‘ 17"153° 22.65‘27° 49.28‘153.37747-27.82133McCoys Creek33153º 22‘ 39"27º 49‘ 22"153° 22.65‘27° 49.37‘153.37747-27.82278Middle Moreton Banks16153º 17‘ 24"27º 18‘ 27"153° 17.4‘27° 18.44‘153.28992-27.3074Middle Moreton Banks16153º 19‘ 46"27º 18‘ 25"153° 19.77‘27° 18.42‘153.32945-27.30703Middle Moreton Banks16153º 19‘ 46"27º 23‘ 36"153° 19.77‘27° 23.6‘153.32957-27.39333Middle Moreton Banks16153º 17‘ 25"27º 23‘ 35"153° 17.42‘27° 23.58‘153.29035-27.39299Middle Moreton Banks16153º 17‘ 24"27º 18‘ 27"153° 17.4‘27° 18.44‘153.28992-27.3074Mirapool Islands18153º 25‘ 38"27º 18‘ 22"153° 25.63‘27° 18.37‘153.42712-27.30624Mirapool Islands18153º 29‘ 12"27º 18‘ 22"153° 29.21‘27° 18.37‘153.48676-27.30624Mirapool Islands18153º 29‘ 12"27º 21‘ 11"153° 29.21‘27° 21.19‘153.48676-27.3531Mirapool Islands18153º 25‘ 49"27º 21‘ 11"153° 25.82‘27° 21.19‘153.43038-27.3531Mirapool Islands18153º 25‘ 38"27º 18‘ 22"153° 25.63‘27° 18.37‘153.42712-27.30624Northern Wedge3153º 9‘ 41"26º 50‘ 39"153° 9.68‘26° 50.65‘153.16127-26.84419Northern Wedge3153º 9‘ 46"26º 50‘ 31"153° 9.77‘26° 50.51‘153.16285-26.84183Northern Wedge3153º 14‘ 17"26º 54‘ 29"153° 14.29‘26° 54.48‘153.23811-26.90803Northern Wedge3153º 17‘ 3"26º 55‘ 30"153° 17.05‘26° 55.5‘153.28422-26.92497Northern Wedge3153º 20‘ 52"26º 56‘ 44"153° 20.86‘26° 56.73‘153.34766-26.94546Northern Wedge3153º 22‘ 7"27º 0‘ 5"153° 22.11‘27° 0.09‘153.36854-27.00142Northern Wedge3153º 17‘ 32"27º 3‘ 19"153° 17.53‘27° 3.32‘153.2921-27.0554Northern Wedge3153º 11‘ 34"26º 54‘ 12"153° 11.57‘26° 54.2‘153.1928-26.9033Northern Wedge3153º 9‘ 41"26º 50‘ 39"153° 9.68‘26° 50.65‘153.16127-26.84419Offshore North Stradbroke Island30153º 29‘ 60"27º 32‘ 10"153° 30‘27° 32.16‘153.49997-27.53604Offshore North Stradbroke Island30153º 29‘ 59"27º 40‘ 46"153° 29.99‘27° 40.77‘153.4998-27.67943Offshore North Stradbroke Island30153º 27‘ 41"27º 40‘ 45"153° 27.68‘27° 40.74‘153.46141-27.67907Offshore North Stradbroke Island30153º 29‘ 60"27º 32‘ 10"153° 30‘27° 32.16‘153.49997-27.53604Offshore South Stradbroke Island35153º 28‘ 59"27º 53‘ 51"153° 28.98‘27° 53.86‘153.48297-27.89764Offshore South Stradbroke Island35153º 25‘ 31"27º 53‘ 51"153° 25.52‘27° 53.86‘153.42539-27.89764Offshore South Stradbroke Island35153º 25‘ 55"27º 49‘ 53"153° 25.91‘27° 49.89‘153.43183-27.83147Offshore South Stradbroke Island35153º 29‘ 23"27º 49‘ 53"153° 29.38‘27° 49.89‘153.4897-27.83147Offshore South Stradbroke Island35153º 28‘ 59"27º 53‘ 51"153° 28.98‘27° 53.86‘153.48297-27.89764Peel Island24A153º 21‘ 30"27º 27‘ 57"153° 21.5‘27° 27.95‘153.35831-27.46591Peel Island24A153º 21‘ 30"27º 29‘ 31"153° 21.51‘27° 29.52‘153.35842-27.49206Peel Island24A153º 20‘ 42"27º 30‘ 49"153° 20.7‘27° 30.81‘153.34497-27.5135Peel Island24A153º 20‘ 42"27º 31‘ 24"153° 20.7‘27° 31.4‘153.34503-27.52337Peel Island24A153º 19‘ 8"27º 31‘ 24"153° 19.14‘27° 31.41‘153.31902-27.52343Peel Island24A153º 19‘ 8"27º 29‘ 38"153° 19.14‘27° 29.63‘153.31901-27.49384Peel Island24A153º 20‘ 45"27º 27‘ 58"153° 20.75‘27° 27.96‘153.34582-27.46602Peel Island24A153º 21‘ 30"27º 27‘ 57"153° 21.5‘27° 27.95‘153.35831-27.46591Peel Island24B153º 21‘ 30"27º 27‘ 57"153° 21.5‘27° 27.95‘153.35831-27.46591Peel Island24B153º 21‘ 30"27º 29‘ 31"153° 21.51‘27° 29.52‘153.35842-27.49206Peel Island24B153º 19‘ 8"27º 30‘ 21"153° 19.14‘27° 30.35‘153.31902-27.50584Peel Island24B153º 19‘ 8"27º 27‘ 57"153° 19.14‘27° 27.95‘153.31902-27.46591Peel Island24B153º 21‘ 30"27º 27‘ 57"153° 21.5‘27° 27.95‘153.35831-27.46591Prices Anchorage/Pelican Banks26153º 22‘ 36"27º 34‘ 20"153° 22.6‘27° 34.33‘153.37662-27.57218Prices Anchorage/Pelican Banks26153º 24‘ 40"27º 34‘ 20"153° 24.66‘27° 34.33‘153.41108-27.57218Prices Anchorage/Pelican Banks26153º 24‘ 46"27º 37‘ 18"153° 24.77‘27° 37.31‘153.41276-27.6218Prices Anchorage/Pelican Banks26153º 24‘ 25"27º 37‘ 18"153° 24.41‘27° 37.31‘153.40686-27.6218Prices Anchorage/Pelican Banks26153º 24‘ 15"27º 36‘ 29"153° 24.26‘27° 36.49‘153.4043-27.6081Prices Anchorage/Pelican Banks26153º 24‘ 15"27º 35‘ 20"153° 24.26‘27° 35.33‘153.4043-27.58886Prices Anchorage/Pelican Banks26153º 22‘ 36"27º 35‘ 20"153° 22.6‘27° 35.33‘153.3767-27.58886Prices Anchorage/Pelican Banks26153º 22‘ 36"27º 34‘ 20"153° 22.6‘27° 34.33‘153.37662-27.57218Redcliffe Point12153º 8‘ 18"27º 13‘ 41"153° 8.3‘27° 13.69‘153.13838-27.22815Redcliffe Point12153º 8‘ 18"27º 14‘ 46"153° 8.3‘27° 14.76‘153.13838-27.24604Redcliffe Point12153º 6‘ 40"27º 14‘ 46"153° 6.67‘27° 14.76‘153.11119-27.24604Redcliffe Point12153º 6‘ 56"27º 13‘ 41"153° 6.93‘27° 13.69‘153.11556-27.22815Redcliffe Point12153º 8‘ 18"27º 13‘ 41"153° 8.3‘27° 13.69‘153.13838-27.22815Scarborough10A153º 6‘ 43"27º 11‘ 29"153° 6.72‘27° 11.48‘153.11194-27.19129Scarborough10A153º 6‘ 43"27º 10‘ 59"153° 6.72‘27° 10.99‘153.11194-27.18313Scarborough10A153º 7‘ 57"27º 10‘ 59"153° 7.95‘27° 10.99‘153.13253-27.18313Scarborough10A153º 7‘ 57"27º 11‘ 34"153° 7.95‘27° 11.56‘153.13254-27.19272Scarborough10A153º 6‘ 53"27º 11‘ 34"153° 6.88‘27° 11.56‘153.1147-27.19272Scarborough10A153º 6‘ 43"27º 11‘ 29"153° 6.72‘27° 11.48‘153.11194-27.19129Scarborough10B153º 6‘ 59"27º 12‘ 25"153° 6.98‘27° 12.41‘153.11632-27.20691Scarborough10B153º 6‘ 53"27º 11‘ 34"153° 6.88‘27° 11.56‘153.1147-27.19272Scarborough10B153º 7‘ 57"27º 11‘ 34"153° 7.95‘27° 11.56‘153.13254-27.19272Scarborough10B153º 7‘ 57"27º 12‘ 25"153° 7.95‘27° 12.42‘153.13252-27.20697Scarborough10B153º 6‘ 59"27º 12‘ 25"153° 6.98‘27° 12.41‘153.11632-27.20691St Helena Island15B153º 15‘ 51"27º 23‘ 35"153° 15.85‘27° 23.59‘153.26408-27.39312St Helena Island15B153º 15‘ 51"27º 24‘ 56"153° 15.85‘27° 24.93‘153.26408-27.41557St Helena Island15B153º 12‘ 32"27º 24‘ 56"153° 12.53‘27° 24.93‘153.20877-27.41557St Helena Island15B153º 12‘ 32"27º 23‘ 35"153° 12.53‘27° 23.59‘153.20877-27.39312St Helena Island15A153º 13‘ 17"27º 22‘ 20"153° 13.28‘27° 22.33‘153.22141-27.37217St Helena Island15A153º 15‘ 4"27º 22‘ 20"153° 15.06‘27° 22.33‘153.25104-27.37217St Helena Island15A153º 15‘ 51"27º 22‘ 20"153° 15.85‘27° 22.33‘153.26408-27.37217St Helena Island15A153º 15‘ 51"27º 24‘ 56"153° 15.85‘27° 24.93‘153.26408-27.41557St Helena Island15A153º 13‘ 17"27º 24‘ 56"153° 13.28‘27° 24.93‘153.22141-27.41557Tripcony Bight2153º 4‘ 48"26º 58‘ 2"153° 4.8‘26° 58.03‘153.08008-26.96716Tripcony Bight2153º 3‘ 59"26º 58‘ 2"153° 3.99‘26° 58.03‘153.06651-26.96715Tripcony Bight2153º 3‘ 59"26º 56‘ 16"153° 3.98‘26° 56.27‘153.06634-26.93784Tripcony Bight2153º 5‘ 2"26º 56‘ 16"153° 5.03‘26° 56.27‘153.08377-26.93784these are the marks i have,
any help?


cheers

lippa

[lippa]

sorry, didnt cut and paste the way it should read, i suck with computers!!!!

[Alchemy]

Just saw Beattie on Seven news stating that he would ensure fishing would continue to be allowed on the Redcliffe jetty. His reasoning is that "people have been fishing there since Adam was a boy" (or close to that). Perhaps if we can show we've been fishing in proposed green zone areas since that same era, then they'll be left open too?

Somehow I think not!

Dave.

[Moonlighter]

Update as at 21 August 2007.
Recent MBAA Action
In the past week or so we have commenced another series of meetings with State MLA’s whose electorates border Moreton Bay. These meetings have covered a range of issues including:

• Reinforcing and ensuring MLA’s understand the Alliance’s position on the review
• bringing issues of concern to their attention (such as the potential impact on fishing if “areas of interest” were to turn into green, yellow, pink etc zones), our concerns with the review process such as EPA’s refusal to release maps of the areas of interest to stakeholders and to allow sufficient time for stakeholders to consult members
• explaining progress with our research project, encouraging them to ensure that Government takes notice of our recommendations when they are released.
• We have already met with the following MLA’s: Michael Choi (Capalaba), Phil Weightman (Cleveland) Lillian Van Litzenberg (Redcliffe).
• We have meetings lined up shortly with Neil Roberts (Nudgee), John English (Redlands) and Paul Lucas (Lytton), Karen Sullivan (Pumicestone), Pat Purcell (Bulimba), Vicki Darling (Sandgate), Tim Nicholls (Clayfield).

Media

• MBAA Deputy Chair Grant Bennett did a media interview with Dave Downie that was broadcast on his 4BC radio show on Sunday 19 August.
• We received media coverage in the Bayside Bulletin on 14 August, although what was printed did not properly reflect the position we put – unfortunately we can’t control what the general media prints after we give them the story!

MBAA Research Project Update

• From our surveys conducted at the Tinnie and Tackle Show we now have economic estimates of the importance of specific locations (e.g. Scarborough Reef, Peel Island etc) to recreational fishing in the marine park. Such fine-scale economic estimates have never been available before.
• Charter operators should have received their surveys by mail last week and we strongly encourage any charter boat operators who read this to complete and send in their surveys ASAP.
• We have completed a draft habitat map and we have identified a number of anomalies in terms of what the EPA have produced on their habitat maps. We will be sharing this info with EPA to hopefully help improve their data.\
• Surveys for commercial fishermen are nearly complete, data has been analysed and final verification is underway.

EPA’s Review

• MBAA representatives attended a briefing for the Stakeholder Reference Group on Tuesday 14 August where EPA provided information about the “areas of interest” and outlined their plans to meet with stakeholder groups to discuss these areas. As is now well known, EPA had deleted the lat/long from the charts they showed us, making area identification guesswork at best. They then refused to release maps of these areas to enable stakeholders to consult with their constituents. Later, EPA provided GPS coordinates for some but not all of these areas.
• A major concern with these “areas of interest” was the lack of any attempt to minimise social and economic effects on the community, as evidenced by the inclusion of 4 Redcliffe foreshore areas as well as the jetty, close reef areas on the Redcliffe Peninsula and at Scarborough, Peel Island Kalinga Bank, Ormiston Point to name but a few.
• MBAA representatives subsequently attended the first of these meetings (Charter Boats) and did everything possible to ensure EPA is aware of our concerns and to suggest possible alternatives. Only the offshore areas were covered at this meting, and we were concerned that EPA staff commented that those offshore areas were drawn to minimise impact on the trawl sector, but apparently had little consideration of the recreational, charter boat or other sectors. Again, this highlights important deficiencies in EPA’s data that our research project can help to overcome.
• There was insufficient time to cover all of the areas of interest at this meeting, and it is not known how or when the EPA plans to finalise these discussions with the Charter Boat sector.
• Our scientific team has commenced a review of the values and justifications for the areas of interest that EPA have identified to ensure that scientific literature supports them, as our initial assessment has raised doubts about some of the reasons they provided. We aim to have this completed by the end of the week.

Grant Bennett
For the MBAA Team

[Derek Bullock]

Thanks Grant.

[kc]

I feel so tempted to post the involvment, actions and efforts of the many and varied peak bodies, lobby groups and LMAC's which took place during the Great Barrier Reef RAP program. I won't, because it would take up 30 pages and also dishearten those fighting the good fight.

I hope the EPA has taken some lessons from the RAP fiasco, I hope the same people, who drove RAP and are now working on the Bay learnt something from the process, and I hope MBAA is not left feeling as shattered and p^%$#off as we were when the dust settled.

What Grant & the MBAA crew have done is absolutely admirable and they deserve everyones gratitude.

Political activism is the fall back position; the last resort.

If we had not been so poorly dealt with the the GBR rezoning there would be no political party...and we would all be better off if the buggers listened in the first place.

Here's hoping. After all...there from the government...they are here to listen and they are here to help

KC

PS : Anyone want to buy a second hand car??

[Lovey80]

Im getting far to wound up to make a sensible comment so i'll leave it at that. Keep fighting the good fight guys but I fear David hasn't got enough rocks for that Shangi.

Cheers Chris