saltwater fly rods

[DR]

i am thinking of dabbling in fly fishing, to those that are into it, what is the preferred fly rod weights to use for saltwater ??

[hooked.up]

Hi DR
Suggest you start with an 8 weight if you are really keen.
This rod will handle most of the flies you will toss around inshore.
Will also be usefull if you get on to some big lakes in windy conditions.
If you are just starting you may be able to pick up a second hand rig.
Suggest you spend a few hours with professional instructer, it is well worth the money and will save you a lot of cursing.

HAVE FUN.

[wessel]

Mate, it is an evil sport. Rather stay at home and watch the lawn grow ;)

My preference is a 9 weight, medium to fast action. That is also where the problems will start. Everybody has a different preference and it generally is all good. The problem is the costs associated with the sport. What is good for me, you may find excessive.
So, do yourself a favour and book a day with a professional and ask a million questions. Try out the gear he has, get a feel for it and then start hanging out in tackle shops. Try all the different gear before you make up your mind. Read all the posts in this section. There is an absolute wealth of information in here, especially about equipment.

A personal word of advice though. Never start out with cheap gear like those 30 bucks combo sets you can get. You can skimp slightly on a rod, maybe a small bit on the line but whatever you do, never skimp on the reel. In the ocean you need something that can take a kicking in the guts and then some.

Have fun

Wessel

[DR]

thanks fellas, still just thinking at the moment, but now have a bit of an idea..

[yasplayer06]

Mate I was in your position 8 weeks ago and I got a Loomis IM6 8 weight for $250... This will cover all round fly fishing and its a fantastic rod to cast with... But I think when your starting the key is to go second hand to save you some $$

Scott

[cammac]

I would suggest a 6/7 weight rod and just practice in the estuaries first up - your on solid ground so easier to balance a good quality rod will certainly help you wont get as tied either casting a lighter rod. get a 8/10 weight later when more competent

cam

[Nick_Currey]

Hi DR,

Couple of suggestions - first would be to give the guys a bit more information on where you live and which fish pond you play in, as if in a NSW estuary the gear will be generally lighter than say if you live in Darwin etc

Second would be to see if there is a local fly fishing club in your vicinity and check them out, as there should be some knowledgeable swoffers who will help you out.

Talk to local tackle shop, especially if there are some staff who flyfish

Hope it helps

NC

[Maxg]

You need to keep in mind that everyone from Huckleberry Finn to Micket Mouse has different ideas on what is a salt water fly rod and what is salt water fly. First off it ISN"T fresh water fly fishing. So if you start off on that point you are halfway there.
You need to know that in the range of rods, as they come from the shops, in 6/7/8 weights there is a spread of weights from 160 to 210gns casting weight, thats 50gns, so if you had a 7 weight you could just as easily fit it with a 6 weight, or 8 weight line and you wouldn't. tell the difference. If you were classsed as expert you might. But there are 437.5 gns/ounce so its not a lot really.
It really depends on where you want to fish and what fish you want to catch. Not much point hanging an 6# on a blue pointer or a 15# on a mullet.
A 9 weight is a half ounce rod, like 240gns, and in general fishing terms that is not very heavy. It is however quite useful in any area you fish. Most fly rods are overloaded by anglers, trying to meet the standards set by experts
A 9 weight would be fine, you can fish it anywhere and its going to catch fish. They are light, easy to cast and will not get overloaded by the fishes you are going to hook. Which is important because it means you will not be overstressing the fish.
Don't go berserk and buy one of those zillion dollar rods, you might not like fly fishing and getting rid of a very expensive rod will lose you money. Big buks. Beginners should not spend hundreds of dollars on startup gear.
There are cheap reels around but get one in Large Arbor, at least 4 to 4.25 inches in diameter, because of retirieve rate, and load it with GsP braid. It should have a reasonable drag.
Get a standard intermediate Scientific Anglers WF fly line to start with, don't pay big dollars for ANY fly line, regardless of the recommendations. Fly lines are expensive, over $1 per foot of length, so get used to the one you have before you go mad on collecting fly lines.
And keep away from Clouser flies in the early days, they have a rod kill rate higher than the USAF and RAF kill rate during the whole of WW2.
Apart from that they need special casting techniques to keep that lead eye away from the tip of your rod.
Casting a fly rod, in the standard style, is called progressive loading in which you start off with a load, line, that is really under the optimum load and cast it to and fro building up line speed and rod load. It is inefficient really, so I suggest you get a 10# line and put on your 9# rod and use less false casts to load the rod. Its quicker, which you might need if you are casting to fast moving fishes.
Any instructor will tell you it isn't a good idea, but it really is because that 9# rod is really an 11# rod in disguise. At least the optimum load is 360+gns, at least 1.5 times the recommended 9# load of 240gns. No one is going to tell you that, its one of the fly fishings best kept secrets. But don't let it put you off a 9# rod. They are the SWF utility stick. Really useful gear in the early days of your fishing.
I suggest you get on Dan Blantons board, www.danblanton.com and put up a post to Bill Nash and get a copy of his book, called "Flycasting Systems" its the original book on leaders, knots, lines etc, and it will not cost a mint. It is the SWF bible.
However have fun, don't get your head in the mist, its just fishing after all.
Max Garth

[Martin.E]

Hi DR,

Pretty much all fly rod/line weights can be used in saltwater, but which you choose will be mostly determined by what size flies you want to cast and what size fish you are aiming to catch. Pretty much like conventional tackle really - if you are wanting to throw 60g chrome lures for tuna off the rocks you're not going to want to do it with a 2m rod designed for casting unweighted yabbies at whiting on 2kg line, except that in fly fishing fly size generally line size which in turn determines rod size.

I find an 8 weight outfit is a good choice for all-round use in estuaries (bream, flathead) and bigger bass in freshwater - fly size in these cases doesn't generally exceed 2/0, and more usually in the 1-4 sizes. Up to 2/0 is OK for light inshore pelagics, particularly from a boat. In the tropics you may need to go up a size or two (9 as Max suggests, or maybe 10) to chuck the bigger flies you would be using. You can use lighter sizes on heaveir fish and bigger flies of course (and vice versa) .


Wind is the other big issue - heavier class rod/line combos will generally make it easier to cope in windy conditions than will lighter outfits.

Martin.

[DR]

thanks fellas, some more good info there [smiley=2thumbsup.gif] will check out that site..

[Maxg]

Martin... These days I've gotten rid of my 9 foot fly rods,, for everything, since I don't fish off boats. Fishing estuaries I'd go for a 5/6 weight 12 foot double hander, longer cast easier to use, cover much greater area and with less effort. You can simply roll cast it out to 60/70 feet and not have any running line problems, and use the rod lift to retrieve the fly, which goes faster than you can strip retrieve. Off other platforms I use a 12#x12' TFO which is really in the 15# class, like 500/600gn heads and modified with single foot guides so that its now a dual purpose spin/fly rod. I can fit it with a fly reel shooting head set up, or a threadline reel, or a South African KP Scarborough type DD reel designed to cast lead slugs at pelagic fishes. Latest crazy thing is a Shimano Starlo 9 foot graphite spin rod, 20/60g load, like 300/925gns, somewhere around 18# . Its two piece with a modified butt to make it DH, cost 130 buks all up, very hunky can't cast it one handed but get 83 feet two hands. Got it for Tom Foolery rock fly fishing, but can also fit a threaddy on it and fish it like a hefty spin/jig rod.
Fly rods are just fishing rods, nothing more or less than that. And spin rods can be fly rods too.
This Shimano should be good for big Barra in the dams. Pull the eye teeth out of hippos.
Go to www.flyangler.com.au forum post TFO 12x12 and see a pic, plus a link to bluewater who have a pic of it in use in spin mode.
I have one TalonGraphite USA 15' Midgar 10/11, 2x TFO 12x12's one TalonRA 9/10# 14 footer and a TalonRA 7/8 12 footer. I do use a TFO 2# at times.Cheers MaxG.

[FishMarket]

I have an 8wt Scierra Blue Water with an 8/9 Fenwick. I use 7,8 and 9 wt lines and anything from 6lb to 25lb leaders. I target anything from Bream to Flatties, even small Trevally and have not had any probs. Get the best outfit you can afford! I'm sure your local tackle shop will fill you in on all the Pro's and Cons of cheap Fly gear. It doesn't have to get expensive but generally does if you want to cover most situations on the water.
Get some lessons or go to Flycasting to begin with .... just to see if you like it.

Cheers
Fishmarket

[Martin.E]

Hi Max,

I've seen your comments about the Shimano spin/fly switch stick on Blanton's board. Interesting! I fully agree with your views on de-mystifying fly fishing and the gear that goes with it. I remember when I was kid teaching myself to fly cast in suburban Melbourne. Between weekend fishing trips the closest waterway was the back yard swimming pool; barely room for a back-cast between the clothes line and swing set and under the big tree by the fence, and certainly not with a 9ft fly rod. I set up the fly reel on a 6ft trout spin rod and had a ball (didn't catch anything though :D). So much for my misspent youth ;D.

Am looking at double-handers at present - not sure about the Talon range - have seen some comments recently (in response to your question on sexyloops) that they were a little slow actioned and the pic on Barry's web pages suggest that too. How does Barry's Talon RA 9/10 wt compare to the TFO12x12? And is TalonGraphite USA the same as TalonRA?

I'm looking at a 14-15' 9-10wt DH rod for pelagics off the rocks and maybe jewfish from the beaches/breakwalls here in northern NSW but have my eye on a couple of other blanks - Composite Developments (NZ) have a 15' 10wt in their GHR range - love that range (my favorite 9' 8wt at present), the fast action feels good to me, and light in the hand as well. The other option is a 14'9/10wt Forecast/Rainshadow blank from the USA which is much cheaper but I haven't ever seen one of their rods up close; their spin/baitcaster blanks get a very good rap though. Definitely plan to build it up as a switch rod too with Fuji single-foot guides to use it as a threadline beach/rock rod for when it gets too windy for fly. That's why I'm keen on a fast action blank like the CD Rods GHR. From their specs it should cast 30g baits/lures quite happily as well as 500-600gn heads. With a mid-sized threadline spooled with GSP, casting distance will be absolutely scary.

I'm also aiming to get a second light (6/7wt probably) DH rod for estuaries, as you suggest. Again, Forecast/Rainshadow seem to have some nice blanks in this range.

On fly reels, I think I've found the best ever value for money DH fly reel out there - even better than your Penn :). It's not on their website yet unfortunately as is a new release - Alvey 456BE -all graphite/plastic and stainless steel, large arbour, 4.5" diameter wide spool, direct drive with the Alvey E-system drag, about 450g, current price is $40 through MO Tackle in Coff's Harbour. Rugged as you'd imagine (it's listed as a boat reel in their catalogue) but at $40 who cares if I drop it on the rocks? I haven't spooled it up yet but it's a big reel - more capacity than most 12-weight reels I've seen so it should be just right for a DH 10wt rod. I notice Alvey has also just come out with a 4.25" version (426BE) which is also large arbour, something like a large arbour version of their "real" fly reel (the 425BE), but, like the 456BE, also only about $40-$70 depending on the retailer. It's narrower than the 456BE from the photo I've seen and weighs in at around 360g, so looks like a genuine 12wt reel for 9' rods or, alternatively, 13' 8/9 wt DH rods.

All the best, Max, and thanks once again for your feedback to this and past posts ... always much appreciated.


DR, Sorry if I've inadvertantly hijacked your post ;).

Martin.

[DR]

thats fine, it's all info to take on board.. [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

[DaveP]

I just joined your board as I will be traveling to AU in a few months. I will have some time in Coffs Harbor and will be bringing along a travel rod. Looks like my 8 or 9 wt will be fine. Any information on flies, and fishing locations or flyfishing guides in the area would be helpful.

Dave P
Cape Cod, MA

[Maxg]

Hey not a problem, you should note that the Shimano Steve Starling Surf Spin 9 footer has a brother which is 12 feet long, made of the same stuff and has the same butt design. Its just as easily modified as the 9 footer and it would be hell on wheels. The only reason I din't have one is because I can't find one. The latest Starlo stx are a bit lighter but are much the same type of rods. Rather easy to modify and cast very well using two hands, Bit hunky for one hand.' Talon Graphitte is a USA mob, but TalonRa are good rods, I have 2 the 12 and 14 and they work well and are very good gear out of a very notable factory in Korea.
The TF) 12x12 is a very nice rod, bit different to most DH rods, maybe harder to cast than the general run. But its really a 12x15 rather than a 12x12.
The CTS blanks are very expensive but extra good gear, used by Bob Meiser who is on their Pro Staff.
I do think that a 14 would be a bit long for rocks, 11/12 or 13 might be OK with a preference for the 11/12. My ideas are for cheaper workable rods that aren't gold plated but perform quite well. I think that you can catch trout on a willow stick in most cases so why spend hundreds of buks on rods.
I intend to track down a long starlo stick just to see what its like. Have to go to town on monday so will trip to a far off tackle shop for a scout.
Today I got a new running line, bought a 4#DT shakespeare line for 15 buks, cut the front and rear tapers off it and its a good running line for my 12 foot 7/8. They also make great shooting heads for 2/3/4# rods. Just chop the 30 feet ends off and you get two, plus a 30 foot 4# level line.
Every buk counts. MaxG.

[GHOST-147]

Hi,

Fly fishing is such a specialist fishing area. As they say, it is "The sport of Kings". So regal it is in history that only the wealthy could afford to "dabble" in the sport itself.

Today, it still is not an inexpensive sport at all. Sure enough you can by combos and cheap fly rods, line, reels, etc, but as with soft plastic fishing, if you want to really do something with it, you should look at investing good money into it.

I personally don't see the point in buying a "cheapish" outfit for fly fishing. However, an 8wt Innovator is not too bad in price and castability.

If you do have the money to invest into fly fishing, then to cover most your saltwater angling potentials, I suggest at least an 8wt or even a 9wt.

If you're only going to target estuarine species, then start with a 7wt. If you're intending to target more pelagics such as tuna, GTs, mackerel and the like, then definitely a 9wt.

Line wise....... Rio Outbound Tropical WF (Weight forward) is one not to be missed in your choice of purchase, nor the Cortland 444 Lazer Tropical Downunder..... They are great lines and Peter Morse does endorse them. I myself use a Sage 9wt with 300yd braid backing to Rio Tropical Outbound. It casts like a dream and has 37ft weight forward head compared to the usual 30ft, which means, faster casting speed and thus increasing distance.

If you're a novice at casting, wherever you are from, find an instructor who'll teach you. It will help improve your casting distance immensely.

It is about technique, knowledge and skill, just like most areas of fishing. How far you want to get into it, is a personal preference.

Good luck and I hope you find what you're looking for.

Time for me to chase some longtails again.

[Maxg]

Martin, no problem. Those Barry rods are fine, I have 2, a 14 9/10 and a 12 7/8. I do like the 14, its about the standard for tropical beach fishing. Barry also has running lines and heads to suit.
Back in the dim darks I modified a 6" Alvey boat reel to act as a fly reel. Put a shroud over the spool, like a full frame fly reel. .
But it really didn't work and I turfed it.
Max

[Martin.E]

Thanks Max. Interested in your preference for 12wt 12 footers over 14 or 15 footers from the rocks - is that because of concerns over the extra leverage the longer rods give to heavier fish? I'd still like to get a 14 or 15 footer for the beaches as you suggest - hell of a job even fishing the close gutters with a 9 footer.

Re the TalonRA gear - what grain rating for the 12 foot 7/8 in your experience? Most DH rods seem to be designed throw shorter heads at around 4 AFTMA levels above their labelled rating, so I'd expect it should be best with something about 300-350grains?

Check out that Alvey456BE if you get the chance - nice alternative fly reels for DH rods although, with its graphite frame, flex under load may be an issue. At about $50 it, at the very least, makes a good beach reel however.

All the best for xmas and the new year.

Martin.

[Maxg]

Fly fishing isn't a specialist sport, its just that we are brainwashed into thinking that. Its just fishing.
I don't particularly prefer 12 weights 12 footers over 14/15 footers , but I do prefer the TFO 12x12 because it really is a 15#, and its somewhat different in feel and casting. It casts a 625gn SA T40 head quite well, and does like a Cortland 15# 550gn head
The TalonRA 12 footer in 7/8 is designed to cast heads in the 400gn 32' range.
The TalonRa 14 foot 9/10 is designed to casts a heads in the 550gn 32' range.
My Talon USA 15 footer is a 10/11 and casts heads in the 800gn range. At least I use a 50' 770gn intermediate on it.
I only use heads, full lines are too expensive and each one comes with a running line which is most cases isn't long enough but in every case costs anything from $1 to $1.50 per foot which is ratgher expensive.
I have 2 TFO 12x12's one has snake guides and the other has been re-runnered to single foots as a sort of experiment to evaluate single foots on DH rods. So far its a success, so much so that I definitely think it's a lot better than the rod with snake guides.
My reasons for 12# off rocks is that generally in weights, like the 12x12 TFO, it has enough grunt to handle most fish.
The longer rods are harder to work than short rods although they have lots of butt grunt.
Considering the advantages of te long rod, easier casting with the 2 hand grip, longer casts as well, which is quite often necessary off rocks, added to the speed of presentation, less casting strokes, more casting styles available and of course bigger flies.
When I used 9 footers off rocks it was 12# and above. The lighter rods are not for places like rocks, the variety of fish species around tropical and semi tropical rock platforms is just too much for light rods, like 9 weights.
The ideal rock fly rod would be a Mieser 13x13 of one of the CTS heavier class 13 foot blanks.
Bit expensive though, even in NZ buks.
Even a standard 12# is a bit light for rocks, I''ve been busted by some horrific fish on 9 foot 12# rods. Like big kings in the 25/40lb class. Big trevvors, sharks, mackerels and some lunker tunas, like LT in the 70lb region.
The cobes were great stuff.
Maxg