Bilge pump - what size for going over bar.

[Oscar]

Has anyone taken a wave over the bow while going over the bar in a runabout - what GPH bilge pump would you recommend that would keep the boat seaworthy while still motoring - a bloody big one is not the answer I'm looking for. This is in addition to the under floor ones already there.

Oscar

[Jabba_]

I copped a wave over the bow down at Brunswick, scary stuff.... I have a cuddy cabin, so not a hell off a lot off water got in... Still, it dumped about 500-1000lt in the boat at a guess..... If I had a open center console sort off boat, the situation would off been dire, even if I had double the pumps I currently have....

I have 2 bilge pumps...
The primary pump is a 750gph, and the emergency pump is a 3000gph...

If you have a open runabout, I would suggest nothing smaller then a 3000gph, and fit 2 off them and have them running when your going through the bar, not once you take on some water, and make sure you have very good quality, and high amperage batteries. Seconds are vital....

[Spaniard_King]

Oscar.. pumps wont save you in all occaisions.

Buy a boat that has a self draining hull if its that much of a worry. Have you thought of doing a bar course?

I only run 1 x 800GPH pump and I cross some of the worst bars on the east coast

[levinge]

Im with Jabba, even though we don't have those troubles up here in NQ. Better to have too much stuff to get you out of the crap than finding out that it wasn't good enough when the rescue boys are dragging your arse out of the water....

Can never be tooooooooooo cautious with bar crossings

[seastorm]

What happens to your battery if the back of the boat is full of water will it short out and the bilge pump stop working?

[nigelr]

If you took a wave over the bow that compromised the seaworthiness of your runabout, I doubt a bilge pump would be of sufficient help in the short time you would have before the next wave arrived.
If you had lost power, you'd be in deep stuck. As soon as you got hit side-on you'd likely be capsized, depending on your hull configuration and the size of the wave.
If you still had power you could gun the boat straight out as hard and fast as possible to avoid the next wave, once outside your pump can offload the water.
Too flippin' scary a situation to put yourself in for the sake of a fish, IMHO.
Bar course sounds great!
Cheers.

[jimbo59]

If you took a splash from a breaking wave ordinary blge pumps will be ok but if you got a boat full of water your stuffed,the pumps will still be working while your paddeling to shore..sorry. Get a safer boat it sounds like your boating skills dont marry up to your craft.

[peterbo3]

Oscar,
I don't think there is a real answer to your question.:o:o:o

Boats that roll on bars seem to go over in a flash. Without a self draining hull you are most likely stuffed as the centre of gravity moves aft with the seawater. You lose control & the next wave gets you.

[spearking]

Mate I'm with Jabba ........... seconds count,
If your dead set on crossing the bar regularly and your budget doesn't allow for a bigger craft, even on a perfect day and after all the bar courses ...... if some how you lose power whilst crossing and a wave hits right, you will want all the help from a bilge(s) that you can to keep you upright and give you a chance to repower.
If in those brief moments if you can maintain flotation and repower out if a bad situation a good bilge set up is worth it, ........learnt this one the hard way.
Since my little mishap in a runabout I have since upgraded, and even though the boat is very dry and I never use the bilge pumps I still have 3 of them ready to go , couldn't tell you their specs but they are the bigggest I could afford, I test all 3, and check there wiring on a regular basis

[GBC]

Oscar,

If you get the answer you are looking for, someone has given you the wrong advice.
Cop one over the nose of your runabout and it means you're in the wrong place at the wrong time in the wrong boat.
Even whitewater coming over a screen provides more than enough weight to prevent a small boat from planing and getting away from trouble.
Let alone copping a green one which would almost certainly be curtains.

People also put waaay too much credence in having a self draining hull in a planing boat.
Certainly they are better (in well designed cases) than just a bilge pump, but generally you'll find a swamped self drainer needs way on to drain and this takes a lot of time. Add to that the fact that a self draining hull which isn't drained yet carries it's water load a fair bit higher that a bilged boat with the same amount of water in it and you're still in a whole lot of trouble in your well marketed highly unstable vessel. (cat owners excluded - max bouyancy at extremes of width)

Bottom line is you can wire up as many pumps as you want and bolt a gusher (hand driven) onto the gunwale as well, but you can't expect them to make your boat more inherantly seaworthy.

[Chimo]

Hi Oscar

My late Dad gave me some advice when I was a young tacker, "When in doubt, pull out"

I think that could also be applied when dealing with bars and the like unless you really have to be there and in that case might I suggest you consider a vessel a bit more capable such as http://www.dmcltd.com/images/SYIDImages/ScanEnkur-FRV-JLBrazil.pdf

Cheers
Chimo

[trueblue]

a scared man with a bucket can shift more water than the average pump...



A mate of mine up north (Bowen) had a plug in centrifical pump that he kept in the back of the boat, all he needed to do was plug it in to a special socket in the gunwales near the seats and it would pump a sh!tpile of water out.

Don't know what type it was though, but it would flog the pants of any bilge type pump.

[gofishin]

...dumped about 500-1000lt in the boat at a guess..... ...Seconds are vital....

Jabba, 1000L is a lot to have in your cockpit - that's 1 cubic meter of seawater and ~1030kg. Your combined pumps would have taken at least 4 mins to pump that out, probably more like 6 to 7 as nearly most pumps are rated at free or minimum head. That wasn't the day you were doing 50mph in a 3m+ swell was it...;D ;D . If it was indeed that much water count yourself a very very lucky man to cop that in a bar and get your boat out afloat.

Oscar, as others have said, you do need a decent pump, but if this is what you are relying on, no pump will help you, and you are probably the wrong boat in the wrong situation. I used to swamp-test boats for a living, and believe me, you don't want to be doing this on a bar :o , or worrying about whether your pump is big enough in this situation.
cheers

[Oscar]

Thanks guys for all the replys and advice - I'm aware of my boats capabilitys - what I was interested in was a bilge pump's ability to shift water quick and was after comments from anyone that had experienced water in their boat and the size of pumps needed to be of value. I've seen a six meter boat go down on the Tweed bar and realise there is no maximum limit on the height of a rogue wave.
Thanks again Oscar.

[Jabba_]

Jabba, 1000L is a lot to have in your cockpit - that's 1 cubic meter of seawater and ~1030kg. Your combined pumps would have taken at least 4 mins to pump that out, probably more like 6 to 7 as nearly most pumps are rated at free or minimum head. That wasn't the day you were doing 50mph in a 3m+ swell was it...;D ;D . If it was indeed that much water count yourself a very very lucky man to cop that in a bar and get your boat out afloat.



Hey Gofishing,,, reread my sentence,, I said "500-1000lt at a guess"... Hence the "at a guess" part off the sentence.. It means it is not an accurate measurement, just a guess... Also 1000lt is the top end off the scale, for all I know there was probably only 300lt in the boat, or maybe 700lt.... Next time, (which I hope there isn't) I will careful measure any water that comes on board just so you can have piece off mind.. But all in all, who really gives a toss....

No, not 3m or 50mph, on that day the swell was 5m and I was doing 65mph (had the NOS connected.. Using the waves like a ramp and landing ramps... Lots off good fun,, I also pulled off a back flip with a knack knack... Not easy to do in a 6m boat, especialy the knack knack part....

[ThePinkPanther]

Save the money on a bilge pump - that won't help you anyway - and use it to do a bar crossing course with Bill Corten on:

32863647

Prevention is better than cure!

[gofishin]

...on that day the swell was 5m and I was doing 65mph...back flip with a knack knack... Not easy to do in a 6m boat, especialy the knack knack part.... At that speed don't you mean 'knackered knackers' ???;D
That E-TEC has obviously got way too much poke mate, better disconnect that NOS and unplug a couple of pots, 4 cyls on straight ULP sounds heaps enough. Otherwise how can we slow old 42kn boats keep up with you to check out you knack knack's?;D ;D

[gofishin]

...do a bar crossing course with Bill Corten Wise words PP - myself and a couple of mates are doing this in a few weeks with Bill.

From what I hear from people that have done it, it is the most valuable ~$450 bucks worth (full day) you can spend learning about boats & bars, let alone the 1st hand experience you get on all channels thru the washing machine during various tide states. It will be great & I can't wait!

Re pumps; I am amazed at the pissy little pumps supplied as standard on a lot of expensive offshore boats that obviously do bar work. Some would not even cope with a torrential downpour if the cockpit was left open to the elements, and if the scuppers that were not 100% tight, or any low transom penetrations for that matter, down she goes.
cheers
Brendon

[Mindi]

"Oscar, as others have said, you do need a decent pump, but if this is what you are relying on, no pump will help you, and you are probably the wrong boat in the wrong situation. I used to swamp-test boats for a living, and believe me, you don't want to be doing this on a bar http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/../yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/default/shocked.gif , or worrying about whether your pump is big enough in this situation."


I agree ..have done this and scared myself witless...only way out of it if the volume of water is serious is to be lucky enough to make clear water then bail without capsizing...bilge pump pretty much irrelevant in this sort of marginal situation....by the time it is useful you will have saved the boat probably and it will remove the underfloor stuff wile you find the valium. All other things being equal you probably shouldnt capsize if the water is all below floorline, but your inertia will resist quick flotation so swamping is a readily available outcome. It is just too open a question. It's the crash when the green bit hits the floor behind you that gets the pulse going...! (5.0m Stacer at South West Rocks Creek 1989...not that I can remember.?)

[Oscar]

In reply to my query on bilge pump size and some of the negative comments on the capability of my boat or expertise. I have many years experience crossing all SEQ bars, some of it working for the government.

What my concern was: How can people and companies build and sell boats supposedly capable of fishing off shore and fit them with totally incapable equipment for keeping those boats afloat – if an accident occurred the legal implications would be interesting. As someone said most of the pumps supplied are only because the law says you have to have one and are only of a size capable of dealing with a heavy shower, not what’s needed, mine included. There are many reasons you need decent pump/s besides being for a wave - hitting a submerged object like a container, reef, hulls failing and they do, etc.
My boat is fitted with pumps of 4000gph capacity because that's what I'm comfortable with - I was interested in seeing what others had, it appears my thoughts on other boats were correct – I have to thank Jabba for supplying figures – my impression from some of the other replies is - there are a lot of computer fishermen on our forum.
Sorry for the late reply, been taking advantage of the numerous sandies in the bay.

[Jabba_]

What happens to your battery if the back of the boat is full of water will it short out and the bilge pump stop working?

If your wiring is fitted correctly it wont short out, it should all still work with the batteries fully submerged under water....

But if you have that much water in your boat to start with, I dare say your screwed...

[Horse]

If your wiring is fitted correctly it wont short out, it should all still work with the batteries fully submerged under water....

But if you have that much water in your boat to start with, I dare say your screwed...

Jabba mate. You make some of the most outlandish statements :o

You are not sure if you have a couple of hundred litres or over a ton of water in your boat and then expect your bilge pumps to work OK with your batteries completly under salt water:-/

You must have been doing 40knts in a 2m sea at the time just to make it interesting;)

[Jabba_]

OK, so the batteries or the wiring will short out when there under water...

Care to explain how diesel 4x4s are able to cross water that is up to the middle off there wind screen..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrVuQDdOmOc&feature=related

Yeah must be bull sh!t

[Horse]

A short immersion in fresh water is totally different to being submerged in salt water. I have taken my old petrol Landy through creeks where the water came over the bonnet with a tarp over the front and the motor did not even get very wet.
Batteries will work for a short period of time under water but rapidly lose cranking power

[finding_time]

Spot on Horse!

Jabba

Salt water is an electrolyte mate!

Ian

[Jabba_]

Horse, I totaly agrea that the battery and electrical will not last long in salt or freshwater, but a correctly set up your electrics and bilge pump will work long enough to get you out off trouble...

Also, some or a lot off off-shore boat have there batteries installed in plastic boxes which provides a air gap at the top, that will also buy you some time... I myself dont have this set up...

I had silly mishap when I first got my boat... I had a water leak in the hull that I could not find by eye. So I stuck the hose in the boat with the intention to only fill up to the floor board, and look for a leak.. Long story short, while it was filling up, I went inside had a beer and started watching the V8's and fell a sleep.. I woke up frantically remembering I had left the hose on.. the water was over the batteries because the jockey wheel was wound up... Good news was, found the leak. Small hole in the bow..
Also the bilge pump still worked, so did all the other electrics, and I was able to start the motor with water covering the batteries.....(at the time I only had the 750ghp)

I recon there was some water in this engine bay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr8eEWyKQHM&feature=related

[Getout]

a scared man with a bucket can shift more water than the average pump...


I agree...the best bilge pump in the world is a scared man with a bucket!!

[Steven78]

I have pump plus a self draning deck with fully sealed floor. But i still think the Skipper judgement counts the most.