Converting barra taps , nips & bites to hookups

[SeekingBarradise]

Stixjew, Brian, Nath, Theo, Scotty & Dick a great 6pack of helpful threads there if i've ever seen a helpful 6pack on the net...

Stixjew you are right nobody has the same genetics when stepping on a boat, nobody is really even or on a even playing field. Pitting skills against young fellas you know have sharp reflexes is to start behind the 8ball straight away, basically giving some a 2 fish start so to speak. So why would we do silly things to give them even more of a head start. Especially if we can control these things easily before we step on the boat. Food for thought hey.

With this handicap things are magnified if the influence of poor preparation factors limit ones ability even further e.g. the list i put together somewhere in this thread. All facts they are. For instance have you even felt like falling asleep just after eating? Not the best condition (sleepy) to be fishing in when having to make decisions on tv that's for sure.

Without being harsh in any group one guy will run fast for short times like Bolt in the 100 and be able to throw quick punches or strike at times 50, 60,70 % better than the long slow distance runners in the group and even faster than the guys in the group that just aren't good at anything. Harsh reality of life that one. I won't type much more on this topic as it may offend as i will be the bearer of bad news even though they are just facts of life. You can often tell what genetics and what people are physically capable of after only looking at them for 3 seconds if this is your job or the radar is on.

We are all bad at many things
Hell i'm bad at a stack of things, i see kids everyday that can beat me at several activities, events and sports. I see kids quicker than me at a lot of things.
I could get frutrated, or i could say well done young fella you have the opportunity to grow up and be really good at this if you train hard, giving him hope to strive forward and work hard. Good on him i say.

Thats what makes life awesome, we work out other ways to complete the same task. It's only a drawback if we choose to look at it that way. We could see it as a challenge to work with what we have and figure out how we can get better. Isn't that what old fella's do? Get better at finding fish and turning this experience into a huge advantage?

Practical Application
E.g. some short guys might use long fishing rods for casting distance or get quicker in the cast action. Some slower guys might fish in a more direct line thus reducing a limitation of reaction times. Some guys missing a lot of fish on plastics might hang more hooks off it and so on, but this still doesn't fix their technique problem if they have one. The point of all this is that you have to get rid of ego, have no roadblocks to learning and then people can help and problems can get fixed. Pretty simple really as helpful conversations shouldn't be a arm wrestle unless their is resistance.

Thanks for contributing fellas this thread has some awesome info, i'm saving it as a favourite, the info is too good to forget. How good is Dicks post. That guy can count he worked all that out in his head while on the phone in only a few seconds. And i thought WA schools only went to grade 7?

Brian & Nath thanks for some of your latest findings from your Monduran trip guys it's appreciated.

Scotty i can still smell that tuna on the boat, found another can while cleaning the boat the other day. Young Locky is on to that brekky as well he loves it, i reckon to reduce the heartburn from the beef dinners the night before.

Theo fire away about those other topics i'm interested to see what your hundreds of Barra sessions have found.

Cheers Lyndon.

[BR65]

Another one... Standard size B52... Now theres 6 good chances.


Hey Theo, the line above is from your post, and I just want to touch on it a minute, sorry Chris, I know this is about softy's, but most who have fished with me know my thoughts and frustrations with B52's.

I rig them with over size owners (generally #1) and double splits on each attachment point (Halco #4 fish rings). This usually sees the lure suspend in most cases, with the odd one needing to be up or down sized in the hook deparment to acheive what I want in this lure - a shallow diving suspender with a nice tight action, they dont have a big, wide, slow lazy wobble. The intent of the double splits is two fold, to add some weight in suspension, and to provide an extra pivot point for the treble to try and reduce some of the strain placed on the hook.
My problem with B52's is turning hook ups into fish on the matt.
More times than I can remember I have been short stuck for nil conection, or hooked up for a good 10 seconds for a dropped fish, or a perfect example 2 weeks ago, fought a very big fish for approx 7 minutes to the boat side, only to have it yawn and hand back the B52, no hook damage noticeable.
I have tried double striking, differant rod angles, tight lines on jumps (try to minimize these in open water by low rod angles anyway, Im not loking for a head shaking, lure tossing jump when structure isnt an issue - differant story in the timber though), Ive ensued hooks are shap and sticky, I just plain strugle with this lure!
I use it a lot, because it does attract fish (one goes hand in hand with the other there, does it attract fish because I use it a lot, or do I use it a lot because it attracts fish???). With 6 points of attachment, and using larger size hooks with bigger gape, you would think the drop rate would not be as high as it is.
Is it the slim profile, I dont fish the smaller bombers, do they have this problem, or is it just me?
Signed
A frustrated B52 Owner.

[Awoonga]

Reaction pays a part but. As a competitor in Motorsport for over 25 years if you didn’t react quick enough there usually where dire circumstances. In those days computer games where just coming on the scene. I remember racing in the United states and a few of the top teams had pinball machines to try and sharpen up the drivers reactions. Do l think a human will ever be faster than a fish in reaction time ? no way Think of it this way. You don’t know when that bite will occur. Next that bite must travel up the line through the rod to your hands then the signal is sent to your brain .. then you react…… Too bloody slow … So how is it that we on the odd occasion catch them ? Well one reason is committed fish. They take the lure and move on looking for the next victim . We strike we hook the fish So how to turn tail taps and bumps into hookups ? Lure presentation is one. You have to turn the “ what are you” into Commitment. Make the fish take the lure by doing something different when you retrieve. Having a couple of barra in a tank has helped me to understand then a bit more. Now l said a bit more because they are complex creatures They are inquisitive, moody, playful and like us humans some are not as smart as others.. its all about creating a illusion and the better that is the more fish you shall catch

[robersl]

Hi All
I have not read every post here as yet but i noticed on the muster i had a lot of solid hits not taps but no hook ups i know they were barra as i did manage to get 2 connected and then have them jump and spit the hooks back at me, i was useing slick rigs in the green grunter they have the red tail and red nose , i think what has happening were the barra are hitting them head on thus not hooking up as the hook is facing the other way, i coame to this conclusion due the the fact the red noses on the slick rigs were demolished after the hit and the leader frayed ,i think they hit it head on and the leader interfere's with the hook up and frays as does the head' of the slick rig .i do not think the leader is fraying from being right down the barra's throat on every occasion, i have just watched some you tube barra feeding sessions and on most occasions they took the bait head on
What do you guys think i was talking to lee and gunna at mondy about maybe rigging some sort of forward facing stinger for the slick rigs to see if this helps the hookup rate on them

shane

[TinarooTriumph]

Hey Brian,

Before reading your post I instantly though 'double/triple' ringed hooks, but alas you have already got onto this. They are a very slim-line lure & also attract big fish - small lure & bucketmouth! One thing... I noticed a video of yours on youtube (I hope thats right?) and noted that you had a Penn Pinpoint Tournament stick blah blah blah. This is also a stick I use fariy reguarly. Will go on a bit further on in the post about rods etc but the Penn is the best value for money fishing fighting stick around, though I too have found the tip to be a bit broomsticky to strike with. They are a light rod in weight, but if you look at the physical design (lots of guides, thick enamel, no real taper) then you can start to see a few issues with the rod loading up on the strike. Being a short rod means it has ox-like power... I had the 10kg model which was overkill, went down to the 8kg (still bloody ample!!!). The 4kg could be the one. It will do everything a 10kg does, but it will have much more flex.

I don't want to be seen as 'stalking' ya mate (lol)... but I just do pay pretty close detail to things such as the rod lying in your boat during the vid.

As for dropping a big fish 7 or so mins into a fight... that says one thing instantly and thats to 'back off'. I also dropped a good sized fish a week ago (115ish) & another one a week before that (90 odd) on the exact same lure & outfit - both occasions. Both fish were fought very strongly with different rod angles & both fish were very visibly hooked at the 'hinge' - not a bad place. Why were both fish dropped? - I was just going a bit toooo hard at these fish. I should have bloody learnt the first time the week previous but nope. Its all about fighting smarter & not harder as I'm starting to find out.

Reference... some time back I was reading a post by JM (think it may have been on Harro's forum... not sure) about keeping up with fish during battle. Whilst on charters with hooked up anglers he could see how far 'behind' or 'infront' an angler was in fighting a fish. I know exactly where he is at with this. Just by looking at the load & angle in the rod he could pinpoint exactly where an angler was at any given time... "your 1m behind the fish" etc, meaning theres some taut in the line to gain. I don't religiously follow JM's posts or copy & paste them (gee thats an idea ) but this just really hightlights 'smart' technique. Watch FISH AWOONGA and his clients fighting barra, then watch the Monduran DVD of JM's and see the difference in how rods are loaded and fish are smartly directed around a boat. Masssssssive difference.

Few thoughts on hooking fish (taps, nibbles etc etc). One thing that hasn't come up (or at least I don't think it has)... barbless hooks. Better penetration & theres no doubt about that. On heavy trebles such as Owners which are a heavy gauge hook compared to Decoys or others, the barbs on the Owners are much narrower and offer easier hook-up & in some cases easier hook throws. If we are to crush our barbs then we have maximum penetration, but will fish throw lures? If we keep 'infront' of fish like I mentioned above and fight 'smarter' not harder (Mundine style fighting... smart!) then hooks should stay in place.

I read once a post here on ausfish by vet (Scotty M) and how he trialed barbless hooks on Awoonga once and dropped 11/12 fish in a night... well I've heard the same thing up here from a mate that gave it a go once. One nights/days fishing isn't conclusive enough as to barbless hooks being 'bad', but perhaps more thinking could be done on this subject. I must admit I havn't gave this set-up a good go yet, but there is promise. I have caught fish on barbless hooks... fish to 114cm in fact on a night last year. Hell I was scared of possibly dropping it, but kept up with the fish and it was boated. Good fish too.

[TinarooTriumph]

A litte bit on Rods...

Last 2ft of every rod (tip end) is what you should be looking at the most when purchasing a rod yeah? I think so anyway. Having worked in a tackle shop a bit last year and we use to mess around with rods (Loomis, Millers, St Croix) I finally worked out why these rods are good. They look good in a cabinet, thats why. They are bloody well built rods, extremely light, nice number of guides and bonding processes applied, but they arn't the answer to hooking more fish like some think. Even the Samurai's we use to play with didn't do much for us. Many a cheap (or should I say in-expensive) rod exists which will do the same thing. Throw a handline out and fight a fish if you don't believe me. Tried this once and hard work alright. No rod is perfect.

Soft plastics & different oufits. Single hooked plastics & lightweight long spin outfits = match made in heaven. Single hooked plastics & shortish (even longish) baitcast oufits with slightly different designs = not anywhere near made in heaven. I know a few here arn't entirely sold on the idea of spin outfits which is plain stupid. If I was to step into a coaches shoes here for a minute with the cap and whistle in hand, I'd make you drop and do 50 - not only that, but I'd be making doubly sure that you leave the baitcast gear at home next time you visit a dam. One word... versatile. A lot more then say a baitcast rod. Back to the plastics... one thing I notice a lot when casting plastics on spin gear (longer casts... keep this in mind) is that bows in the line once touchdown has occured are common. Few ways to control this - have a play around with it next time your on the water. Longer the casts (preferred) the likelyhood of some bow occuring, wind or no wind. If theres one type of lure which barramundi anglers use which is going to give them grief in terms of the above, and hooking fish, is a soft plastic. Heres that 'one hook= one chance' factor again. Direct lines are essential to a point that they should occur on every single casts as sometimes we never know which casts are going to be belted. Its playing the percentages.

Mentioned hook modification in a previous post. Softies are so easy to modify and I don't mean just chopping & changing tails etc but instead playing with different type hooks and positioning. Personally have been working on this for some time. Not only can hook modification on softies improve hooks up, but increase casting distance, swimming action (to a small point) and also increase the many ways in which you can use them. I have included a small picture on the bottom of this post to show you a small example. It has caught fish, but is yet to be vigoursly trialed. I won't explain anything about what I've done to the lure, but provide a visual image and nothing else.

Not hounding you Chris, but you mentioned the top anglers use Stingers a lot of the time during tournaments etc. How confident are you in saying that they use the Stinger set up reguarly? I bet you a carton that guys like the Taylor's won't even look at stingers anymore, though special circumstances may occur when they do. Again, Stingers are just a bad a promo as boiling Slick Rigs - once word gets around it suddenly becomes a must, when in-fact it could hinder our performance.

A quote from Plasticin "Trying to react to a bite is one thing, expecting to react to a bite is another. I for one know that I don't pay enough attention to each and every cast. Less casts, more attention = more fish.... Maybe but casting is easier"

Thats absolutely spot on. If theres one thing that effects anglers on large trips, its the environmental conditions. In order... sun, cold wind, rain, wind - throw in that list what you like. The Mondy muster which just took place is a perfect example of a large trip involving seemingly large sessions. Can't blame em' as they have limited chances of fishing the Dam living so far away, but no doubt a few were knocked around after a session or two. Few cold beverages wouldn't have helped either as I've found out after many a hungover session on Tinaroo.

Cheers.
Theo

[Dick Pasfield]

Did a 'Theo' from last week a thought a bit about this subject last night at the office.

Some of the stuff I thought about surfaced in the posts following mine. Things like better reaction times belonging to younger people, who may be missing the technique- but put them both together and it's an eye opener.

And i thought WA schools only went to grade 7?

was edumacated in NSW Lyndon, our pre-school starts at QLD's grade 7 level

I think Trev's on the ball with what he wrote but it does lead to what I was thinking about last night and that is - 'Are you able to produce a similar reflex to a hit as you get with the patellar reflex (knee jerk reaction). Perhaps not by the same pathways but the result being the same.

I ask this because as mentioned before sometimes, when you are on the ball the strike can seem to come as a direct response to a bump with the brain not a part of the equation.

What would you need to do to train the muscles to react in such a way (Lyndon your ball), how many reps, how many fish, how many times a week?

Meanwhile back at the office -

Four main lure rotations, two HBs and two SP's one a frog the other a big fat head -thingie.

Three bumps on the fat head over the space of 90 minutes, the last resulting in one fish on board. The first bump had me striking at a vacuum when the lure got pushed forward, the second was over before it started, the last stuck, with a bit of help from a big mob of newtons.

Not the best return on investment but the HBs got no interest on a 5 -10 minute rotation time.







An incident from last week, had a couple of guys in the boat, meaning we were a bit cramped. Got a hit with the rod in the 10 o’clock position (horizontal). The resulting (and cramped) strike only achieved a bend in the rod, the tip remained spatially stationary. The fish didn’t move so made no contribution to the hook up, one shake of its head and it was free, it didn’t come back that night. My fault I was moving around the boat when it hit so well out of position.



PS" I used a kack-ul-lator

[BR65]

I don't want to be seen as 'stalking' ya mate (lol)... But I just do pay pretty close detail to things such as the rod lying in your boat during the vid.

All good Theo, and great to see Im not the only one that looks deeper into a pic than than the angler holding up a fish, theres so much un-said detail in the background of most pictures, if you look hard enough, especially when that pic is from your "home water". It doesnt necessary need to be the location, but shdows cast can tell you the approx time of day, water surface can give a clue to wind, anglers clothing, hat, sweaty face can guide you re what is the weather/temp like. Each is a little tid bit of info that gets stored away, and adds to the general knowledge base for trying to find a fish.
Im curently on the search for a new stick at the moment, the Penns are great little work horses in the ruff and tumble short range casting of hard bods in tight cover, but with levels up, other tactics are called for, plus, I need an excuse to buy a new rod lol.

[Awoonga]

Gentlemen as we can see Chris has a lot to learn after all he is just a Sydney bream fisherman But l must say he has had a lucky streak so far.. I for one gave him no chance of doing well in the barra tour last year….Well if you look at the results he beat me…! With all these questions that he keeps asking and his thirst for knowledge who knows where it will end up… What needs to happen is for me to take him under my wing show him the error of his ways So that’s the plan 2009 Barra Tour….. Team Berkley… So please continue to probe his answers,,, Question his motives and teach him as much as you can because he shall be on the boat with me .. because what he learns l shall learn too ! Bring on the tour

[mr_yamba]

has anyone else had the trouble that striking too early actually costs you the fish. in mid august i had a red hot session on surface frogs one afternoon but as i struck the fish it kept pulling the lure from the mouth. saying that, it was almost impossible to resist the urge to strike when hit. I think an automatic reflex is good in certain circumstances, however it often takes the brain longer to process whether the tap is a log, rock, or fish. For me the only thing worse than losing a fish is getting a snag, and automatic strikes often cause this.

[NAGG]

has anyone else had the trouble that striking too early actually costs you the fish. in mid august i had a red hot session on surface frogs one afternoon but as i struck the fish it kept pulling the lure from the mouth. saying that, it was almost impossible to resist the urge to strike when hit. I think an automatic reflex is good in certain circumstances, however it often takes the brain longer to process whether the tap is a log, rock, or fish. For me the only thing worse than losing a fish is getting a snag, and automatic strikes often cause this.

I think when it comes to those situations that are visual ...... surface , you actually need to feel the rod load before ant strike is made

There is clearly a difference between surface & sub surface.
Last week I was fortunate enough to watch a barra follow a placcy close to the boat (last part of a retrieve) ........ when it baulked & peeled away - I stopped ...... The barra turned back & hit the lure with gusto ....... you don't often get to see this , but when you do ...... you learn a lot from it .

Chris

[BR65]

Gentlemen as we can see Chris has a lot to learn after all he is just a Sydney bream fisherman But l must say he has had a lucky streak so far.. I for one gave him no chance of doing well in the barra tour last year….Well if you look at the results he beat me…! With all these questions that he keeps asking and his thirst for knowledge who knows where it will end up… What needs to happen is for me to take him under my wing show him the error of his ways So that’s the plan 2009 Barra Tour….. Team Berkley… So please continue to probe his answers,,, Question his motives and teach him as much as you can because he shall be on the boat with me .. because what he learns l shall learn too ! Bring on the tour

Pack ya ear plugs mate, I dont need to tell you that the dodgy so and so snores like a chainsaw!

[NAGG]

Pack ya ear plugs mate, I dont need to tell you that the dodgy so and so snores like a chainsaw!

Apparently ..... Trev had to check that I was still alive when he got a full nights sleep

Brian .... mate , ya cant have a great fire without some one cutting the timber

Chris

[BR65]

Apparently ..... Trev had to check that I was still alive when he got a full nights sleep

Brian .... mate , ya cant have a great fire without some one cutting the timber

Chris

Happy days mate, and best of luck to Team Berkley!

I found that sticky weight we were talking about at the golf shops on Sandgate road yesterday, 10 bucks for 8 strips about 50mm long, moded up those Richos I brought, 2 suspenders and one sloooow riser.
As an added bonus, the camp store at Morayfield had a heap of the old style Nitro 5/0's in I/6 ounce this arvo, out came the credit card again - ka ching!

[NAGG]

Happy days mate, and best of luck to Team Berkley!

I found that sticky weight we were talking about at the golf shops on Sandgate road yesterday, 10 bucks for 8 strips about 50mm long, moded up those Richos I brought, 2 suspenders and one sloooow riser.
As an added bonus, the camp store at Morayfield had a heap of the old style Nitro 5/0's in I/6 ounce this arvo, out came the credit card again - ka ching!

Good stuff Brian .... the golf lead tape is the best

Chris