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  1. #31
    Moderator Lucky_Phill's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    Quote Originally Posted by PinHead View Post
    is their evidence that this will work ???
    Yes, absolutely.

    The recruitment is small, very small, but it is there.

    I would rather have .005% of something, than 0% of nothing. ( Not actual figures )

    Only reason it is not being done now.... " it is not viable "...... spin for " it's not important enough and we don't have the funds ".

    Let's equate this to land based crops.

    " I don't have enough money to seed my potato paddock so I won't do it ". result. no spuds next year, no-one eats spuds.

    OR

    " I don't have enough money to seed my potato paddock, but if I borrow a little bit, I can repay that little bit, with interest, next year ". and I'll have money left over to plant the following years crop. Everyone has chips with their fish...

    I'll be.......... that appears to be ROCKET SCIENCE......... no ?

    LP
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  • #32
    Ausfish Premium Member PinHead's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    you are right Phill..they do listen to the populace..until they get into Government..then the constituents don't matter for about 2 years..unfortunate but true.

    Perfect example..pre election..we will not have a carbon tax.

  • #33
    Ausfish Addict nigelr's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    lol, or a GST.........

  • #34
    Ausfish Addict finga's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_Phill View Post
    Yes, absolutely.

    The recruitment is small, very small, but it is there.

    I would rather have .005% of something, than 0% of nothing. ( Not actual figures )
    Let's equate this to land based crops.

    " I don't have enough money to seed my potato paddock so I won't do it ". result. no spuds next year, no-one eats spuds.

    OR

    " I don't have enough money to seed my potato paddock, but if I borrow a little bit, I can repay that little bit, with interest, next year ". and I'll have money left over to plant the following years crop. Everyone has chips with their fish...

    I'll be.......... that appears to be ROCKET SCIENCE......... no ?

    LP
    Oi Phil. Your rocket would have crashed and burned with that logic.
    Planting spuds isn't just a matter of buying some seed spuds, bunging them in the grounds and reaping the rewards.
    First of all you have to research what crop might do OK on your place.
    Then you have to research things like what variety of spud to plant, how to plant, how to harvest, how to transport, how to sell and how to convince the bank manager this will all work so you can borrow some cash to buy the seed potatoes, fuel, poisons, water etc etc.
    Then you have to (very simplistically put) prepare soil (what methods), plant seed, keep weeds and pests under control, irrigate (probably), keep pests and weeds under control, pick, pack, find agent who want to sell your spuds, transport, then hope to hell there's a market for your product when it gets to Rocklea but usually the agent rings and says there's a glut of spuds at the moment and all we can get is $6 a bag (actual figures).
    So when it all boils down you've broken even if your lucky, or if your really lucky, you've made a profit and if you've done your research well you did not plant spuds but planted sweet potatoes and made a fortune as every other bugger planted spuds.
    So research, more good research, some willingness from other people to believe in what you can do, some bloody hard work, a willingness to invest, a huge amount of luck, a lot of people with good organisational skills (who were actually allowed to organise and think into the future a smidge), and advice from people other then the dude shoving the seed potato into the ground (ie markets, advisors etc) and the ability to think outside the box is required to make a go of things.
    The initial cost of the seed potatoes is a minor consideration (after taking in the song and dance and a prayer routine and the promise of the market price from the agents when/if spuds get to market) as to whether Farmer Joe will make a go of his spuds..
    We might have chips for the first year or so but if all the farmers are not making good profits they're not going to plant any more spuds so after a couple of years no spuds planted hence no chips for the crumbed cod (except for the sweet potato guy who planted spuds this year as everyone else planted sweet potatoes instead of spuds)

    But back to the fishing front. How can we get back to the virgin boi-mass if we don't know what the virgin bio-mass is??

    Oh boy. I'm pooped now
    I intend on living for-ever....so far so good


  • #35
    Ausfish Silver Member lampuki's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    "lol, or a GST........."

    I am not sure if this is a good example of PH's comment, as the GST went to an election, twice.....

  • #36
    Ausfish Platinum Member rando's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    Finga wrote
    But back to the fishing front. How can we get back to the virgin boi-mass if we don't know what the virgin bio-mass is??


    Who cares if we get back to original biomass, the important thing is to start.
    Is it better to do nothing than have a go.
    In my view it is the right thing to do.
    We can see the problem .
    We contributed to the problem.
    We have an opportunity to fix it

  • #37
    Ausfish Platinum Member rando's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    LP wrote
    Only reason it is not being done now.... " it is not viable "...... spin for " it's not important enough and we don't have the funds ".
    At the snapper consultation meeting at VIc point . I asked the question ,,, why no restocking ?? The scientist who answer said exactly that.... "its not viable at the moment"!!! when I pressed him on why his response was they "could not devise a method to measure results" He was referring to a limited bream release in Pumistone passage.
    So the Government is currently advised restocking is not viable based on a small test program using bream in Pumistone Passage.

    What is the adage??? garbage in = garbage out!!!!

  • #38
    Ausfish Addict Lovey80's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    Rando,

    why can you not contemplate that recruitment for Snapper is not an issue. The numbers for the sizes of Snapper you are talking about releasing are huge. Stocking only helps when you can assist the recruitment process. The "problem" is assumed to be getting the numbers of snapper that are already well over the 10-15mm size (in which there is plenty) into the 350-500mm size. Snapper stocking IS NOT VIABLE!
    Democracy: Simply a system that allows the 51% to steal from the other 49%.

  • #39
    Moderator Lucky_Phill's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    All good, except you Scotty..... too much time in the sun What about corn ?

    Here's the deal, re Bio-Mass. I couldn't give a Tree Frogs left toe about virgin bio-mass because I am a Bio-Mass sceptic.

    I have explained my thoughts on this on other threads so I'll touch on it here again.

    Bio-mass is an explanation of a quantity of a species. That quantity can be made up of numbers, but science says those numbers are irellevant, the " mass " is what counts.

    IE:- and bare with me on this.......

    bio-mass of area B Snapper is 5 tons............... virgin bio-mass ( using modeling ) was at 10 tons, we need to do something to get it back to what we percieve as virgin bio-mass because a virgin bio-mass is ideal.... but we believe a percentage of VBM is sustainable ( despite our not knowing what the VBM is ).

    Theory and methodology.

    Area B has 2500 fish at 2kgs each( or 45cms )....... ( breeding at .8kg,or >30cms hence 2 - 5 years breeding / spawning taken place )

    Area B bio-mass cannot relate to fish, because the bio-mas ( number of Virgin fish stocks) was 1000 fish, but at 5kg.

    Bio-mass is a ... tonnage, if you like of all sizes of a particular species..... tonnage and numbers cannot combine and therefore the only true way to determine a stock assessment is by numbers.

    Hence we have 2 and half times MORE fish at present , but same bio-mass. Smaller fish, but number are high, in fact much higher. How did this come about ? Simple, fishers of all persuasions hunted the larger fish stock and raising of the minimum legal length. Does this mean the larger fish stocks removed from the " system " will create a crash of stocks ? No.

    It is a known that a species will spawn from a certain size ( not age or weight ), providing conditions are right and in some cases ( Snapper ) can spawn several times a year... this is a known.

    So it probably comes down to how many eggs can a particular size fish spit out and what is the recruitment of those eggs.

    For me, I would rather 1,000,000 30cm Snapper spitting out 1,000,000 eggs each ( 10 billion ) , than 100,000 large Snapper ( 75cm ) spitting out 3,000,000 eggs each ( 3 billion )

    Recruitment of about 0.0001%

    Then if we can add our stocked specimens ( 10 billion ).............. Bazinger !

    We have doubled our stock AND bio-mass............

    Happy Endings.............

    Could it really be that simple ?

    Let's go back to the crops. To feed the people, we didn't make crops species larger, we just planted more...... we " stocked " the land. We didn't make Cows bigger, we made more. We didn't utilize one house for 13 families, we built more houses. I feel a idea coming on.......

    wild stocking of fish in marine systems...........

    ROCKET SCIENCE to the rescue again..................



    LP
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  • #40
    Ausfish Premium Member PinHead's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    Releasing smaller fish may be good but is there sufficient food for certain species. With foreshore degradation etc it is obvious that certain areas which were once full of fish are now barren. I guess this may be where the arti reefs come into play for some species but not so for others. I also believe fish numbers of some species may be down in an area due to aforesaid degradation plus other factors such as urban run off. No amount of fish stocking will solve that. The fish will just move ot other areas or starve to death. The bio mass may be quite okay just that it has moved on elsewhere due to these other factors.
    The entire subject really needs a holistic appraisal to ascertain where and how much . How can that be achieved..no idea .

  • #41
    Ausfish Platinum Member rando's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    Lovey80
    I am not talking about specific species. What I am talking about is trying to repair the damage of 50 years of indiscriminate killing mostly through trawl bycatch but also through unrealistic bag limits.
    To continue with the agronomic anallergy. I want to see a "revegitation " of our fishing grounds.
    Thats why I suggest the assisted recruitment of lesser sought species, oysters mussels hardyheads and more.
    It is not enough in my opinion to limit the pressure that is being applied to our existing populations. Because we all know "pressure" will continue to creep, be it fishing or environmental.
    I understand your position. I know that for snapper recruitment is not an issue, per se.
    But I reiterate the fastest growth rate in snapper is the first 6 years. therefore the fastest way to effect increased biomass is in those year sizes.
    Have a look at the WA fishery papers on snapper year sizes and preferred habitat as a function of trawl susceptibility.

    What is required,,, is recovery assistance
    I dispute you last statement that snapper stocking is not viable. There is plenty of evidence from japan korea and china that it is effective and they pursue it vigourously

  • #42
    Ausfish Premium Member PinHead's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    I can see what you are saying rando..but to achive this there would obviously be a considerbale cost. I am as passionate about fishing as the next person but would I prefer funds going to fish restocking or health or education or law and order amongst many others..afraid the the former comes behind the other more important issues. I would not be in favour of a rfl whilst the PPV is in place.

  • #43
    Moderator Lucky_Phill's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    ............ there it is..............

    someone found my agenda.

    Nice work Greg.

    Arti reefs................ now where do I start ???????






    LP
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  • #44
    Ausfish Addict Lovey80's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    Rando,

    Korea with a population of 48 Million People and Japan has 127 Million people. While Japan and it's islands would probably have as much coast line as Australia, Korea would have significantly less. Fishing pressure in these countries would have to be significantly higher than what we have in Australia. So sure when your fish stocks are getting flogged then any assistance you add is going to show results. Your right that the fastest rate growth is in the early years, But seeing that the large part of the biomass is already in those age classes then what is the point in adding to the younger age classes?

    I personally don't see a problem with the old regs and honestly don't believe any measures were required. In fact I think we are in a phase where Snapper numbers by weight will start to increase from now on because of previous restrictions taking such a long time to show results. Although I wouldn't have been unhappy with a MLS increase to 40cm.

    I would love to see if captive breeding of species at the bottom of the food chain like Yabbies are viable. Places on the sunshine coast are much further down on previous years and wouldn't mind them putting in "closed Seasons" on the yabbie habitats to see if they can recover and the other species with it.
    Democracy: Simply a system that allows the 51% to steal from the other 49%.

  • #45
    Ausfish Platinum Member Camhawk88's Avatar
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    Re: LNP Fishing policy

    Quote Originally Posted by PinHead View Post
    I can see what you are saying rando..but to achive this there would obviously be a considerbale cost. I am as passionate about fishing as the next person but would I prefer funds going to fish restocking or health or education or law and order amongst many others..afraid the the former comes behind the other more important issues. I would not be in favour of a rfl whilst the PPV is in place.
    I believe stocking snapper would constitute this??


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