dangerous vehicles

[ronnie12]

Dont want to open up a can of worms here, I must say I am the first to enjoy a regular trip up to Fraser Island, and have owned a four wheel drive previously, but I am dismayed that many are only used for road use. Many people buy these vehicles thinking they are safer, which is proven incorrect. I have experienced first hand the arrogance of these drivers trying to bully their way throught traffic using their size and weight. It has been proven without doubt that:

• They are much more likely to roll in an accident causing deaths
  Many lack crumble rates and safety features
  They cause deaths when they hit smaller vehicles due to the extreme height of bumbers
  Many have unnecessary bull bars or rod holders turning them into leathal weapons.
  They are slow to accelerate or pass vehicles and take longer to stop
  Blind spots on these vehicles have cause many deaths

My particular concerns is the mental attitude of some of these drivers, in a day of rising fuel costs and depleted fuel reserves surely most of these vehicles should be taxed off the road. Like i said, for farmers or people that really need them I dont have a problem. I have witnessed in the past what seemed to be a minor accident involving a four wheel drive which took the life of a minor, all because of the inability of the vehicle stopping quickly, and the lack of experience of the driver. These vehicles owners should require seperate licences and should be charged more for registration. One only has to spend a day say at double Island Point to witness some drivers using the beach as a race track.

[2iar]

Ronnie,

I don't think you've picked a particularly good forum to go wading in against 4WD owners.

I think your key phrase here is "some of these drivers". Not *all*, or even *most*.

I genuinely sympathise that you've witnessed loss in an accident involving a 4WD, but as you've clearly stated a contributing factor was the driver's inexperience. To be fair, a Hyundai Excel or whatever can be just as deadly if driven by someone with the (in)correct "mental attitude".

I'm not arguing with your points on 4WD safety, but I'm sure you'll find that most Ausfish members are aware of their vehicle's capabilities (good or bad), and probably a helluva lot more so than the drivers you seem to be pointing the finger at.

Also, if you have owned one, you'll be aware that they are already being "taxed off the road" in terms of fuel, insurance and maintenance. I'm not complaining about that, just stating the fact.

I own a 4WD and take it off-road as often as I can manage. I pay for the privilege as I enjoy it and it suits my needs. That doesn't mean I'll bully anyone on the road and/or drive irresponsibly.

In the same way, I wouldn't categorize every non-4WD owner
as a joy-riding hoon or drunk driver, to use a couple of obvious sterotypes.

Mike

[Elysium]

It would seem that 4x4 drivers are the new public enemy number 1. I own a 4wd and take regular trips through the bush or to 4wd parks like LCMP. My sister also owns a 4wd yet it has NEVER been off road, but that is not to say that she doesnt need it. Because of her hobby she needs to tow a horse float with 2 horses inside. Now with a combined weight (trailer and horses) of approx just over a tonne she needs a 4wd to tow it safely.

Everyone who owns one does so for thier own reasons. And yes if they are involved in a accident the damage factor is somewhat higher due to the increased weight, height and other factors. But is that to say that all trucks, vans and other "bigger the usual" vehicles should be banned as well? I think not!

Yes there are the occasional idiots that drive 4wd's recklessly and I agree that when in control of a vehicle that weighs approx 1 1/2 tonnes it is a very stupid thing to do. But please dont brand us all with the same brush. Because if you stopped looking at us all the time you would notice that there are just as many 2wd idiotic drivers on the road as well.

I could keep putting forward my opinion here, but I am trying to keep it cival. And if I keep going I fear I will not be able to control my typing finger because when people start harping on about how 4x4 drivers are idiots and the such I get REALLY PI$$ED OFF.

[Black_Rat]

Dangerous vehicles ??? any vehicle is dangerous in inexperienced or arrogant hands
Damo.
Yes I own a 4B.

[mackmauler]

ronnie, try this on, http://www.ausfish.com.au/cgi-ausfis...num=1120819141

at least you like to 4wd on fraser ronnie

[NeilD]

Ronnie
You picked a great way to introduce yourself to the site [smiley=hammer.gif]. [smiley=angryfire.gif]
You won't get too much sympathy from a lot of the members in your quest to further burden 4X owners with more regulations and limitations on their use. I think you will find that most people on this site are pretty aware of the issues you raise and I would hope that they are responsible users.
I really have had a gutfull of bloody do gooders telling me what I can and can't do when I am heading for the bush or beach. New rules, charges and constraints nearly every time I head off somewhere. [smiley=angryfire.gif] [smiley=angryfire.gif]

[Big_Kev]

Ronnie
You don't want to open a can of worms???
Then you portray 4wheel drive owners as arogant bullies who have an overstated impression of their vehicle???
Then you go on to say they have some sort of disfunctional mental attitude and have some form of guilt in this day of rising fuel costs and depleted fuel reserves.
You state unproven facts as being without a doubt???
As for the beach (4x4 Mecca)being a race track purhaps you shoud go for a drive down any highway/motorway and get out of the closed little world you are living in and take a look at the big race track and just who is doing the racing.
You will find it is the drivers of all types of vehicles and not just one particular group.
Am I mistaken but I did not hear you say anything prior to your comments as to the farmers or the people who need them, or was that just another grand stand comment.
I think you have a week arguement, you should go back to your mate Harold Scrubey for a think tank of those who beat the empty drum of the great lord ATTENTION SEEKER just to make more noise.

[gawby]

Ronnie, I was a Qld copper for 10 years [smiley=bobby.gif] [smiley=bobby.gif]and i went to a lot of traffic accidents. Most were minor but some were fatal accidents which involved cars only. I cannot remember any 4x4s being in fatal accidents. It dosnt matter what you drive, passenger veh or 4x4, if driven to the road conditions confronting you, you shouldnt have any problems. It appears to me that you might be one of those that drive under the speed limit with disregard to those behind you causing the presence of the vehicle behind you pushing you along the road. I hope this isnt the case. My personal opinion is that 4x4s cause no more threat on the road than the next car. Good motoring and good fishing which it is all about. [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

[Needmorerum]

Ronnie, I doubt your even interested in fishing, I reckon your surfing the net and copying the same text into any forums that have a 4WD aspect to them. One would think that a new member to a list would at least introduce themself first.
For me, I hope you are just surfing the net and not here to stay.

Obviously my opinion only,

Corry
(Heavily involved with 4WD'ing at a club, social, and personal level)

[AngerManagement]

Nope, Got it all WRONG... Dangerous BLOODY drivers

After some 35 years of OFF road, Bush, Desert and Beach driving I can state with confidence that the Ratio of Dangerous drivers is becoming significantly higher.

Unlike the old days where skill was acquired over time and you only had your self to blame when you got into trouble (often been places in a 2B that many would not go today in a 4B).

These days, easy access to $$$ and a much bigger market means that many people go places and do things not because of Skill but the raw power that the $$$ buy. Unfortunately because of this mechanical advantage and society to day, respect and consideration to others often slips out of sight – for some it is the norm and they see no wrong, for others, we see it a bloody bad manners.

In the April long weekend I took my daughter to Cooloola, as I remember many good experiences and did not think it was worth going to Moreton Island.

Was I in for a shock, and needless to say we came home after one day of continuous bad experiences.

1: Road rules are ignored, and it was not uncommon to find ones self being overtaken (while doing 50k in less than ideal conditions) and having three vehicles abreast coming at you. Absolute bedlam !!!
2: Lack of seat belts being used, with many people riding in the back of some vehicles and standing up in the open top models.
3: A high number of passengers and drivers had drink containers of one sort or another in their hands. Some drivers were observed to be drinking from these containers while performing all sorts of activities at speed.
4: I have seen pictures of crop circles in the North of QLD ( UFO or man made ?), but saw plenty of sand circles and rooster tails, some being created and any where there was a bit of hard sand… All man made I would suggest, no UFO’s to blame here.
5: Saw a number of vehicles perform leaps of faith over wash outs etc and it must be fun for some to prove that their vehicles can fly as well as drive.
6: It did not matter at what stage the tide was, you just stoped dead at the waters edge and got out to fish. I have always understood that you parked you vehicle out of the main traffic flow (up high) and walked down to fish, but then again I guess you need some protection from the hoons.
7: Never saw the police or any other person of authority… and I would not like to be in their shoes, with out a flak jacket, pepper spray and a pack of vicious guard dogs to back you up.

It was interesting to note, that this was NOT all young HOONS, but quite the contrary. Most of those involved ( both sexes) would be in the middle ages and their vehicles were of significant dollars in value, often with many expensive camping setups to boot.

I was also disappointed to find that on going for a number of walks, my daughter and I were amazed to find the undergrowth almost impenetrable due to the amount of excrement and sanitary products above the ground… Shoes were the order of the day. To add to this, when we did attempt to dig a hole ( as required by the National Parks and Wild life) , we were unable to get to the required depth as the ground (soft sand) was impregnable due to the layers of plastic bags, cans, bottles and other rubbish.

I was then further shocked to read in the Sunday Mail April 24th 2005 ( Booze Shatters Island’s peace – Ainsley Pavey) that even Moreton ( recognised as being fragile some 20 years ago) was now seeing the similar experiences.

Moreton Island, Cooloola, Rainbow Beach, Fraser etc etc are all experiencing the results of a high disposal cash flow and ease of access. With the new barge, shorter times and large capacity Moreton will soon feel the pinch as more discover and chose to go here.

I have seen ( plenty of pic’s to boot) many a driver get off the barges to Moreton Island so full that they can hardly stand, let alone drive. As per the stats provided by Ainsley Pavey, 237 rescues by QAS in a year…. This has to be recognised as a major RED flag to the authorities and responsible 4B users. I wonder how many more minor incidences went unreported or did not require the QAS to be involved.

END of RANT..

As you can see, I love 4B’s, enjoy my camping, but most of all I want to see that my kids and grand kids and others also have an opportunity to experience and enjoy a safe and pleasant time when off road. At the end of the day it all comes back down to US, the users, to protect and respect the land, because you can not trust others to do it for you.

[ronnie12]

Anger Management,
I could not agree more and I thank you for such a honest and well written document. I have been fishing and camping for over 40 years and also seen a decline in these areas. My document if clearly read did not point the finger at all owners of four wheel drives and referred to only some. However match these heavy high centre of gravity vehicles and some raised excessively with some of the people we spoke about and indeed we have a dangerous situation, especially when they collide with a smaller vehicle.
I am sure some of the austfish members who gave a well debated response are responsible owners but slowly their reputation is being tarnished by 'Boy Racers' in these vehicles who really think they are superior and invincible in their tanks. Its quite amusing how many cannot accept facts and immediately beat the 'do gooder' drum.

[Big_Kev]

Anger Management,
I could not agree more and I thank you for such a honest and well written document. I have been fishing and camping for over 40 years and also seen a decline in these areas. My document if clearly read did not point the finger at all owners of four wheel drives and referred to only some. However match these heavy high centre of gravity vehicles and some raised excessively with some of the people we spoke about and indeed we have a dangerous situation, especially when they collide with a smaller vehicle.
I am sure some of the austfish members who gave a well debated response are responsible owners but slowly their reputation is being tarnished by 'Boy Racers' in these vehicles who really think they are superior and invincible in their tanks. Its quite amusing how many cannot accept facts and immediately beat the 'do gooder' drum.

Well Ronnie with a topic heading
"DANGEROUS VEHICLES"
followed by generalised defaming and vindictive comments I think you were rebutted in the correct fashion and should cop it sweet.
Unlike Anger Management who started with "DANGEROUS BLOODY DRIVERS" which for me was on the money.
I did think however both #portayed every other person driving a 4x4 apart from them be it on the beach or the road, "was an inconsiderate fxxkwit".
I think this detracted most 4wdrs who I beleive to be resonsible caring drivers and that is only a few that spoil it for the majority.
I agree there should be different class licensing for large vehicles.
It is to easy to get a license to drive any vehicle.
Better driver training to acheive higher competency standard is needed suited to the classes licensed, and this is needed to be maintained troughout a drivers life when renewing a license.

Kev.

[gawby]

Ronnie, I am new to the ausfish site myself but i have answered the threads in relation to who am i and what do i drive. Ronnie, who are you and what do you drive.

[SURF_SNIPER]

ronnie..... off with is head [smiley=behead.gif] [smiley=hanged.gif] [smiley=rifle.gif]

[2iar]

surely most of these vehicles should be taxed off the road.

My document if clearly read did not point the finger at all owners of four wheel drives

Ronnie,

Nice side-step.

I'm assuming that if your next door neighbour commits a murder, you'll have no problems when "most" of the residents of your street, possibly including yourself and your family, are frog-marched off to prison.

Now, about that can of worms you didn't want to open....

Mike