Another boat swamped in the Bay HOW?

[Jeremy]

why should the potential for legal issues being involved in the "issue with the hull" stop anyone from describing what the issue is? Surely, describing the nature of the complaint would not compromise the ability to sue the manufacturer? Or is this just a smoke screen which will bury the real reasons for years until the incident is forgotten.

All we want to know is the reason this boat went over on a relatively calm night. So far, it seems that we have been told a number of half truths with a fair bit of misinformation mixed in. The boat seems to be an appropriate size for going out a few km from Wello Pt in reasonable conditions. BTW, I travelled from the Brisbane River to Tangalooma and back on Friday night in a 4.3m centre console and weather conditions were about 15 knots E.

Was the boat underway or at anchor?
Was a large wave involved as has been reported?
What is this issue that is claimed to be with the hull?
Was there an issue with weight distribution on board?

All fair questions to be asked.

Jeremy

[DaveSue_Fishos_Two]

I have read this thread with much interest. I don't know Wellington Pt or Amity Pt or the waters of that area. I don't know the people who were involved in the incident either, although I am relieved for themselves and their families that they are both safe and well. What I do know is that I have a great love of boating and the sea and all things in it and on it. Hence my interest in this thread. What I simply cannot understand, is how one Bluefin could have "hull issues" when hundreds of others do not. If the "hull issue" is the subject of "legal technicalities" would it not be in the interest of every single Blue Fin owner that the manufacturer 'ground' them pending investigation? ( If of course the problem lies with the manufacture of the hull ). Anyone who has read the contribution of the father in this thread, and who owns a Blue Fin, and who doesn't really know the bow from the stern, would surely have to be extremely concerned. In the interest of all Blue Fin owners, should not the father, or Blue Fin themselves, allay these fears asap???

Just my thoughts

Dave

[bidkev]

Very relevant Dave, and indeed, if there was a (potential) issue with the hull, it would be extremely illogical, dangerous, and probably unlawful, *not to* disclose what that issue may be.

One accident may not make the whole, but if there was this kind of statement (implying design/manufacture fault) made by an individual against an Airline after an accident, then the airline would have, if not a legal, then a moral obligation to ground. Same with a car, there would be a public notice and then a re-call if substantiated.

I would also think that if an implication was found to be damaging to the manufacturer, and proven to be unfounded, then the person that implied the manufacturer at fault could be liable to a civil action.

Contrary to what some may think, I think as boaties, we have a *duty* to get to the bottom of how accidents happen. It's all part of the learning process that may enable us to be more aware, up-skilled and conversant with issues that may affect our safety. I get a distinct feeling that some may view this as a witch hunt, but at least in my case, this is definitely not so. Just natural curiosity to get to the truth of the matter irrespective of whether *anyone* thinks I/we should be involved or not.

We owe it to ourselves to be informed and as the gutter press is misleading anyway, debate here is probably the only way of shedding light on the matter as has been proven by the debate disproving the Amity and boat size issue.

Without that debate, I for one would have been left thinking, "what the hell is someone doing at Amity in a 3.4? The fact that this is now resolved leads credence to the need for debate here, If not? Where else? Particularly when we can't rely on the press.

Curiosity, debate, and a need to know the truth are purely healthy and there is no need for anyone to be slagged off or feel guilty for doing what should come naturally.

The only thing wrong with this thread is that it has been "dirtied" by the implication that we should be "minding our own business" because we haven't got the facts. How else are we to get at The facts other than by discussion. questioning and drawing on others' information, be that wrong info or not. Even the wrong info plays a part in that once given, it can be repudiated from/by another source. Isn't this why police say, "we wish to interview so that we can remove this person from our enquiries" It's all simply a matter of elimination until eventually something more likely to be reality is revealed.

kev

[DR]

irrespective of whether *anyone* thinks I/we should be involved or not.





Curiosity, debate, and a need to know the truth are purely healthy and there is no need for anyone to be slagged off or feel guilty for doing what should come naturally.

The only thing wrong with this thread is that it has been "dirtied" by the implication that we should be "minding our own business" because we haven't got the facts. How else are we to get at The facts other than by discussion. questioning and drawing on others' information, be that wrong info or not. Even the wrong info plays a part in that once given, it can be repudiated from/by another source. Isn't this why police say, "we wish to interview so that we can remove this person from our enquiries" It's all simply a matter of elimination until eventually something more likely to be reality is revealed.

kev

kingtinn,was not aimed specifically at you, but you really do miss the point. it's not about having a discussion that i find annoying. it's speculation that they are at fault, because they were overweight or inexperienced or whatever & because the seas were calm it had to be their fault.
i enjoy discussion, not veiled accusations that these two are idiots & it had to be their fault.
Questions are good, if you/anyone has a theory, express it in a way that is not derogatory to those involved.

ie comments like from Mad fisherman

"P.s yes dereck it is a big hull to tip over in the conditions that evening

Oh here is a pic of the bay that evening

http://www.ausfish.com.au/cgi-ausfis...num=1137027891

A picture tells a thousand words"

i don't consider that discussion, & if people are honest with themslves, i think most would agree

Maybe people need to think of how it will read before hitting the 'post' button

[Panda]

I reckon I could flip my 4.55m in calm water if I really tried. Heres how. I run a permatrim which is great for quick hole shots and slow planeing. My hull has a reasonable V and the cuddy cab raises the centre of gravity. If I put the power on slowly with the motor trimmed right in she lifts up onto the V nicely, but if I hold it there at that speed of almost on the plane she falls over to one side at about a 20 degree list. This doesnt happen once she gets a bit of forward momentum, its only on a purposely stalled take off. I have learnt not to do that now and its not a problem. Its just a characteristic of my set up. However, if I was to turn sharply into the direction of the list with the motor trimmed right in and give it full power I am pretty sure the power of the motor combined with the momentum of the roll would be enough to flip it. Add into the equation a bit of water in the bilge, some unsecured heavy objects like esky and passengers that could slide across to the low side and the probability gets higher.

I am not saying this is what happened in the case being discussed here, but its one possibility. In the absence of any kind of explanation except for something about a hull problem we can only guess at what actually happened. We know the young man was an experienced boatie, but I do wonder if he was the one driving the boat?

[Mad_fisherman]

Dr,
If you read the post by Kazza, You would see that I was replying to it and also my comment to Derek was in reply to his comment made in the thread. Also you would see that there were questions not statements yes, they were not open-ended questions but they were just my thoughts, and I did think and re-read the post numerous times before hitting the send button.

If the post has come across as derogatory I do apologize at that was not the intent. However, don’t you find it uncanny that the parent/parents of these two come on Ausfish and become members after this unfortunate accident? I doubt we will see them again on here unless they come to AGAIN attack the threads and also provide there own speculation.

As for your comment Quote

Questions are good, if you/anyone has a theory, express it in a way that is not derogatory to those involved.

i.e. comments like from Mad fisherman

"P.s yes derrick it is a big hull to tip over in the conditions that evening

Oh here is a picture of the bay that evening

http://www.ausfish.com.au/cgi-ausfis...num=1137027891

A picture tells a thousand words"

I don't consider that discussion, & if people are honest with themselves, I think most would agree

Maybe people need to think of how it will read before hitting the 'post' button”

That is a picture of the bay that afternoon (Fact) if the pictures does not show the conditions well I am surprised.

Again this and the other posts we not made as an attack only merely asking questions and trying to find out the true nature of events. And also reply’s to other people’s posts on the thread.

Cheers

MAD!

[bidkev]

[quote author=kingtin link=1137144821/45#47 date=1137367449]

irrespective of whether *anyone* thinks I/we should be involved or not.

Curiosity, debate, and a need to know the truth are purely healthy and there is no need for anyone to be slagged off or feel guilty for doing what should come naturally.

The only thing wrong with this thread is that it has been "dirtied" by the implication that we should be "minding our own business" because we haven't got the facts. How else are we to get at The facts other than by discussion. questioning and drawing on others' information, be that wrong info or not. Even the wrong info plays a part in that once given, it can be repudiated from/by another source. Isn't this why police say, "we wish to interview so that we can remove this person from our enquiries" It's all simply a matter of elimination until eventually something more likely to be reality is revealed.

kev

kingtinn,was not aimed specifically at you, but you really do miss the point. it's not about having a discussion that i find annoying. it's speculation that #they are at fault, because they were overweight or inexperienced #or whatever & because the seas were calm it had to be their fault.
i enjoy discussion, not veiled accusations that these two are idiots & it had to be their fault.
Questions are good, if you/anyone has a theory, express it in a way that is not derogatory to those involved.

ie comments like from Mad fisherman

"P.s yes dereck it is a big hull to tip over in the conditions that evening #

Oh here is a pic of the bay that evening #

http://www.ausfish.com.au/cgi-ausfis...num=1137027891

A picture tells a thousand words"

i don't consider that discussion, & if people are honest with themslves, i think most would agree

Maybe people need to think of how it will read before hitting the 'post' button[/quote]

I understand what you are saying DR and that what you are saying is indeed honourable and is to be commended. Unfortunately, this is a medium where everyone at some time or other (without access to body language) can be guilty of reading between the lines.

There have been times in other threads, when what has been written seems totally innocuous to me, yet others have seen offence and vice versa.

I think that maybe, (to some extent), that is what is happening here, although without tasking/trusting those whose post cause offence as to the true meaning of what they are implying, one would never really/truthfully know.

"P.s yes dereck it is a big hull to tip over in the conditions that evening"

Could simply be a plain statement of fact with no other implication whatsoever and is therefore a valid statement.

"Oh here is a pic of the bay that evening

http://www.ausfish.com.au/cgi-ausfis...num=1137027891

"A picture tells a thousand words"

Again, this could simply be an illustration of the bay in order to repudiate reports that the boat was "swamped".

Illustrations and facts and nothing more, unless you read between the lines and what one person sees between the lines may differ wholly from what another sees. Indeed, some folk may see nothing at all other than fact, and take both statements to mean that the sea was relatively calm and it surely is a big hull to flip in those conditions. This merely indicates that there may be other factors and does not neccessarily apportion/indicate blame on an individual. Despite me saying that, it may well be that the person commenting does indeed have *intent* to blame but is allowing the reader to think on what he/she says and arrive at their own conclusions.

Without knowing the "intent" of the poster, we surely cannot justifiably accuse them of "stirring the pot" "pointing the finger" or whatever.

We have to judge our responses based on trust and if we trust a poster (via what we know of them on this group) then we have to "sense" that they have the best intention (even if misguided). If the poster is of an "unknown quantity" then naturally, we may have a doubt as to their "integrity"

This medium is very unforgiving and as you say, and I whole-heartedly agree with you on this, "Maybe people need to think of how it will read before hitting the 'post' button".

Even when this is applied though, there will always be others who will read between the lines of those who have considered their response, and will see what is not there/intended. This is inevitable without the human communication characteristic of body language. It all has to come down to trust and respect for the person with whom you are communicating. That doesn't go to say that you can't disagree on something, what *I* am trying to communicate is that we have to trust each others' *intent* and if that intent is misguided, then we can still show respect by admonishing/correcting in a manner that doesn't hunmiliate the person who makes the error of misguided intent.

To conclude, apart from the odd weirdo that we occasionally see here, I'm sure that almost everyone here has the best of intent, but, as I have said before, good intentions sometimes aren't enough and indeed, can even be harmful to those you didn't intend to harm, but to help.

cheers

kev

[DaveSue_Fishos_Two]

I believe, as others have said, that as boat owners and water way users, we have a right to know the precise details involving this incident. A statement from the Water Police, or the Dept Transport, or the insurance company, or someone with accurate details should make a statement asap.
There are countless maritime mishaps which do not just involve small craft but sometimes large ships and their company as well. There are mishaps which involve experienced and inexperienced skippers. There can always be enormous speculation, innuendo, and plain guessing. But there is always a REASON an accident occurs, and without detailed knowledge and the reason/s of such accidents there is nothing solid to help prevent future repetitions. I understand that there are hundreds, probably thousands, of boaties who frequent that water course where this accident occured. The authorities have an obligation, imho, to disclose factual details to you. And as for the likes of me who have never been in that area, I want to know in case the same thing could happen in my area. I want to know what I can do to prevent it.

Cheers
Dave

[Darryl]

DR no offence meant with this post, and i can see your point , but sorry buddy in case you didn't notice this is a cyber realm that has many different people from all walks of life. And if you think you will change other peoples opinions and speculations your kidding yourself mate.

If i think someones unfortunate happenings might prevent myself from the same fate by asking a few questions well so be it. #

Maybe i am guilty of reading between the lines of kazza's post but i read it as we are uneducated idiots that have no clue as to what happened. Well that's exactly right about us not having a clue as too what happened. But surely we have the right to speculate as too what did.

I think it's crap that all of a sudden someone turns up and starts defending there child #blaming the hull.Hey it could have been the hull who am i too know. But what i do know is that if this person claims it to be a hull issue they have a duty of care to disclose this information to other potential victims.

I didn't take Mads post # as an attack on this person, more like a how in the hell did that happen . Maybe i'm not reading between the lines enough.

It was a big hull too tip over in those conditions is not speculating anything mate. To me it's saying ok something weird happened for that boat to roll over in good conditions.

[DR]

DR no offence meant with this post, and i can see your point , but sorry buddy in case you didn't notice this is a cyber realm that has many different people from all walks of life. And if you think you will change other peoples opinions and speculations your kidding yourself mate.

no offence taken,i realise all that, & like everyone else i am just expressing an opinion..

[DR]

DR no offence meant with this post, and i can see your point , but sorry buddy in case you didn't notice this is a cyber realm that has many different people from all walks of life. And if you think you will change other peoples opinions and speculations your kidding yourself mate.

If i think someones unfortunate happenings might prevent myself from the same fate by asking a few questions well so be it.

Maybe i am guilty of reading between the lines of kazza's post but i read it as we are uneducated idiots that have no clue as to what happened. Well that's exactly right about us not having a clue as too what happened. But surely we have the right to speculate as too what did.

I think it's crap that all of a sudden someone turns up and starts defending there child blaming the hull.Hey it could have been the hull who am i too know. But what i do know is that if this person claims it to be a hull issue they have a duty of care to disclose this information to other potential victims.

I didn't take Mads post as an attack on this person, more like a how in the hell did that happen . Maybe i'm not reading between the lines enough.

It was a big hull too tip over in those conditions is not speculating anything mate. To me it's saying ok something weird happened for that boat to roll over in good conditions.

i think they probably read a bunch of the posts on here & felt the same..

[AnthonyL]

At least I see now I heard right on the radio that night..

... it was of particular interest to me as I wasnt to far away and was in a slightly larger bluefin too.

[Darryl]

''i think they probably read a bunch of the posts on here & felt the same..''


Quite possible but i have spent all my life on the water and have a coxswains certificate and have studied all subjects in gaining this licence , including Coastal Navigation , occupational health and safety at sea yarda blar yarda etc. So with this issue i am not an uneducated idiot and have a genuine reason for my curiosity..

So if your implying that i am an uneducated idiot well thats fine , i have big shoulders, but i will comment on the post if i see fit. Even if i look like an undeducated idiot.


Ps, what does DR stand for? I'm a Darryl Robinson , surely there couldn't be 2 of us.

[DR]

''i think they probably read a bunch of the posts on here & felt the same..''


Quite possible but i have spent all my life on the water and have a coxswains certificate and have studied all subjects in gaining this licence , including Coastal Navigation , occupational health and safety at sea yarda blar yarda etc. So with this issue i am not an uneducated idiot and have a genuine reason for my curiosity..

So if your implying that i am an uneducated idiot well thats fine , i have big shoulders, but i will comment on the post if i see fit. Even if i look like an undeducated idiot.


Ps, what does DR stand for? I'm a Darryl Robinson , surely there couldn't be 2 of us.

i'm not saying you're an uneducated idiot , apologies if it read that way.
what i implied was that maybe the parent & people involved that is what was being indicated about them..i know i read it as such by some..

not Darryl Robinson, still only one of you

[sf17fisherman]

If it's the folks that I saw on the news, they were a bit on the "large" size. Odds are they both leaned over the side at the same time and the boat flipped. I can't for the life of me see the weather having anything to do with it.

As has been said, they should've stuck with the boat.

And yet again we get more dramatisation. Amity point my arse! They would never have made it to wello from there as they both looked as fit as my bunion. # Odds are the media dreamed that one up to add a bit more shark spice. The bastards aren't happy with just an "ordinary" good luck rescue story, it has to be high drama.

kev

i understand why kazza came on defending her relos

i for one am a fat SOB also but even standing on the edge of a boat or leaning over with my fat mates while reviveing a marlin we have never looked like capsizeing a boat and just because some people are fatter than other sure doesn't make them worst swimmier

kazza wish the two well from me and no a size 12 sure as hell isn't fat