Ciguatera... Do We have it ???

[Spaniard_King]

What a nightmare!

My whole family ate some of the Spanish Mackerel that I caught yesterday including a couple of kids who stayed last night.

All went well till around midnight, my eldest son awoke with an aching foot. Then around 1 am my wife started throwing up and she had diarrhea.

Then my eldest son starts throwing up, then my sons mate had a sore stomach and then he started throwing up. My sons mate then says I gotta go to the toilet do I helped him down to the loo and placed him on the seat. I asked him if he was OK he said yes so I said I will go get the bucket incase you need it. Of I went..took about 10 steps and I hear thud!.F$#@K.. I went back to pick him up off the tiles with a nice gash under his chin and blood pourin everywhere.

My daughter then jumps up and says shes sick..OMG..WTF is happininen. jumped on the phone to inform the boys parents of the situation and she said I will come and get him.

Meanwhile my daughters friend gets up and says..she's sick..ok I have had enough of this...wife and kids spewin and sh!ttin I got diarrhea thats it..everybody in the car.

stoped and John Flynn hospital emergency SORRY NO DOCTOR ON DUTY

GRRR down to tweed, get down there get the missus and kids into beds, drips and tablets to stop diarrhea.. me another coupla trips to the loo

0530 rolls around and everythin has settled down, so I have taken the kids home and put em bak in bed. gotta go back at 7 am and see how the missus is faring

we all ate the fish I caught yesterday 2 x spaniards 14 + 16 kg

Anyone have first up knowledge of Ciguatera. I need to know If we have it and how can I test to make sure its is Ciguatera. Otherwise my Spaniard fishing is over

cheers

Garry

[borisdog]

Doesn't sound good! I've no first hand knowledge fortunately but there is a check/test kit you can use on the fish (If you have any left) called "Cigua-check". If you have a bit of a search on the internet you should come up with a retailer. Try AIMS even - they may know, or one of the Uni marine science departments.

Good luck.

[StevenM]

Garry,

All the symptoms are there as far as diarrhoea, nausea and skin sensations. Doesnt sound real good.

Mate I home there was something just wrong with the salad that you had with the Spannish.

Ona good note we had the hoo that we caught yesterday from the nine mile and we are ok.

Cheers and hope everyone feels better

Steven

[gone_phishin]

From my days in Arnhem Land most victims of ciguatera have the trots etc, but the main sign that differentiates ciguartera poisoning and simple food poisoning is the reversal of sensation, i.e. hot is cold, cold is hot. Saw many a mate burn the whatsits out of there mouths with scalding water in their coffee.

Let us know how you go , and the very best to all concerned. Whatever it is, it is obviously not pleasant.

Geoff

[theoldlegend]

Mate, if you've got some fresh stuff left, it might pay you to contact the DPI Fisheries and see if they could test it for poisoning.

This isn't going to help you and your family overcome what you've been through, but it might identify if the spanish was poisoned.

TOL

[revs57]

All the best with it Garry,

I've not heard of Spanish down this way being carriers...thought it was pretty limited to chinaman fish down here and some other reef species up north

Hope Dr Franco picks up the thread...he may have a few more clues from a medical perspective or perhaps PM him direct

Best regards to Mrs Spaniard and the mob mate, hope you all recover soon and its nothing too serious

Cheers

Rhys

[choppa]

i can recall a report a short time back SK re mackeral and ciguatera,,,, from memory a coupla young anglers had a feed from there days catch and ended up in hosp for a few days,,,geoff is spot on with reversal of sensation,,, and the other ailments fit the bill,,,,,,i'll be shooting off some samples alright just be sure,,,,,,the size of the monsters you mentioned aren't bad fish size,,,,,,,keep us posted,,, hoping the tribe recovers soon,,,,,,choppa

[el_carpo]

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap36.html

......."Clinical testing procedures are not presently available for the diagnosis of ciguatera in humans. Diagnosis is based entirely on symptomology and recent dietary history."

[banshee]

If you could contact Tony N he may be able to supply the number for Scott Hahn at Southern Cross Uni, he did a prety comprehensive study on the poison to get his papers,I know after the talk and slide show he gave I fed all the spaniards I had in the freezer through the burley pot and have not kept one since.

[dasher]

Sounds more like food poisoning (maybe salmonella) to me but worth checking. Try this site for more info.

http://cigua.oceanit.com/

Hope all are well again.

[gone_phishin]

At 14 and 16kg's, they are prime candidates for ciguatera, as it becomes more concentrated the higher up the food chain it travels. From memory I thought there was a fairly large outbreak of ciguatera in Brissy somewhere, from something, years ago. Is this correct?

We used to eat nothing over 2 kg's in size, or take fish from anyone else, as you could never be sure of where they were caught. Certain areas were rife, like Bremer Island, where the fishing was mighty fine, but the ciguatera was in everything from small size upwards.

Geoff

[Fafnir]

Hopefully it is just a minor case of food poisoning. Friends of mine copped it a few years ago and are still feeling the effects. Aching muscles, hot/cold reversal, headaches, no energy. Apparently the worst of the symptoms lasted for quite a few weeks and then died down. But they were told not to eat any seafood of any kind for 3 years? after being poisoned, as apparently even non-infected seafood would bring the symptoms back. From memory they were also told to steer away from other foods as well but I can't remember what they were.

As an interesting preventative theory, from their research they came across a story of PNG Islanders who had a unique way of trying to detect ciguatera in fish flesh. They would cut a small piece from the fillet and place it on an ants nest. If the ants took the piece into the nest it was deemed to be safe to eat. If they rejected it, it was believed to have ciguatera poisoning and the fish would be discarded. The theory goes that apparently ants can detect the poison in the fishes flesh. As there are apparently no laboratory tests for test fish fillets for ciguatera this is an interesting concept.

Anyway, I hope everyone gets better soon and it turns out to be little more than a mild case of food poisoning.

[mono]

Hi Garry, because Spaniards are pelagic (travelling fish) it is possible to catch a fish with the disease anywere along our coast. Down here at Brunswick Heads a couple of years ago half a dozen people were hospitalised by a dose of ciga. The fish was caught locally by a pro and weighed about 15kilo.
The Co-op here now wont let the pro's weigh in spanish over 10 kilos which is a bit ridiculous when you consider the Ballina pros can come up here, catch fish on our local reef and take them back to Ballina and weight them in! The same fish (diseased or not) swim down the coast past you and then us and travel further down the coast.
I agree with Dasher abit, by the symptoms you describe (except the bloody chin) it might just be food poisoning. Lets hope anyway. All the best with it and keep us informed.
Cheers

[gone_phishin]

Aching muscles, hot/cold reversal, headaches, no energy. Apparently the worst of the symptoms lasted for quite a few weeks and then died down. But they were told not to eat any seafood of any kind for 3 years? after being poisoned, as apparently even non-infected seafood would bring the symptoms back. From memory they were also told to steer away from other foods as well but I can't remember what they were.

The main reason, as far as I know, for not eating even small fish and seafood for 3 years is ciguatera's cumulative effect. Same as it is highly concentrated in larger fish, it is highly concentrated in the new "top of the food chain" human, and therefore, even low doses from smaller fish etc, will bring the symptoms back. Alcohol is also a no-no.

I agree with Dasher too, as the reversal of sensation wasn't mentioned in the original thread.

Geoff

[Spaniard_King]

Hi guys,

just got the missus home, were all still recovering.

We are all suffering from burning our hands when washing them in cold water. Our lips and mouths are also very tingly and sensative.

I certainly would like it not to be The big"C". I suppose only time will tell.

we have been advised to stay away from all seafood, nuts, and alcohol for 3-6 months.

My wife had 4 saline bags through a drip and is still a bit on the dodgy side.

Thats about it for me, I am goin to find my pillow

Garry