Ciguatera... Do We have it ???

[gone_phishin]

Sorry Garry but I think the burning hands etc. give it away a bit #

No alcohol or fish for you for a while . Isn't it nice to know you're the top of the food chain but some times the little guys get a bit of payback>

Hope it all goes well mate for you and all of yours, and you all at least get over the side effects quickly. Doesn't mean you have to stop fishing though .

Kind regards
Geoff

[Burley_Boy]

Really sorry to hear this Gary.
Get well soon buddy.

Cheers BB

[roz]

Hope you and your family make a speedy recovery, and I really hope it is just a bit of food poisening and not Ciguatera, but it doesn't sound promising.

The 'no alchol for a while' thing is a bit of a bugga.

Wishing you all a speedy recovery!

roz

[bigmack]

Hi Gary - very sorry to hear of the families mis - adventures.

Its really strange - last year we caught all sizes of spanos from 8 or 9 k up to about 25k and never had any problems at all.

I read somewhere a while ago that a yacht cruising family use to try the fish on the dog first - if the dog started to eat it - the fish was pronounced fit for all.

Im sure we would all like to find out a bit more about it - please let us all know if you get the fish tested and you find out for sure what it was. The burning hands under cold water doesnt sound too good though.

Cheers
Phill

[The_Bulge]

Too much of a coincidence. I think thats what you had. I have researched this for a while now and you need to keep an eye on all of you as the symptons can hang around for ages. Take care and best of luck.


Klink

[Grunter71]

There is an article in the latest edition of Fisherman & Boatowner( # 117)
on Ciguatera.

It states that there is a kit called a "Cigua Check Kitavailable from a U S company.

The kit costs $24.99 USD, plus postage. The kit contains 3 tests and has a shelf life of 6 months.

[Big_unit]

Sorry to hear you guys all got struck down with what ever it is, Im not sure. Anyways I hope you guys all recover quickly.

Cheers
James

[MulletMan]

Remember an old fisherman from Cairns who always said "If its longer than your wrist to your shoulder then chuck it back".
The cumulative effect obviously is closely related to the length (age) of the fish.

[A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE]

Pink Panther,
It is a bummer if you are only a short bloke with little arms. The big tall , long armed anglers get to keep the bigger ones!!

History of ciguatera poisoing when compared to the numbers of fish, big and small that get consumed annually is a bit scant. Unfortunately when it hits, it can do it in a big way as mention by the original poster and his family and friends. All sized fish from legal sized coral trout to the xos pelagic and demersal reef species have been known to cause a toxic level of poisoning in humans. Variables such as capture location, and fish size can be at times a leading factor in the chances of the fish carrying the toxin in high enough concentrations to be harmful to people. Migratory fish as mentioned can be of concern, but of the massess of fish consumed by hungry people compared to the actual number of ciguatera cases, it seems strongly evident that luck, or bad luck in this case plays a major part in the chances of poisoning.
Ciguatera all begins from a species of algae that grows on submerged structure, and is consumed through the food chain and it accumulates in higher predators via this process. The more small, slightly toxic fish a larger predator eats, the higher its level of toxin becomes. Super sized, 30 and 40 kg spanish have been consumed over the years by many families, yet illness has been avoided. I think we all know the possibilities of the ciguatera, and we have accepted that it is not a common occurrence. It is a bit vivid in its distribution and the erratic capacity in which it is carried. When it occurs it certainly disrupts the camp!
Sympathies to anybody who has had or will becomed poisoned in the coming years. Sad, but its existance will be with us forever. It is always a slight gamble, but the odds are very slim.
Hopefully the future luck of an angler will be in the form of a favourable lotto win instead.
Johnny M

[banshee]

The thing with this toxin is that as well as accumulating in fish it also accumulates in humans,the fish you ate on the weekend may have had very little of the toxin in it,to coin a phrase it may simply have been the straw that broke the camels back,the culprit/culprits could have been any number of fish you have eaten up to this point.The yanks went to great extremes to develop this toxin as a weapon but due to their inability to cure it should the tables be reveresed they had to give the game away.The bloke that did the studies on it found the smallest fish to carry high concentrations of it was seven and a half pounds,he also pointed out that Platypuss Bay at Fraser was the Ciga capital of Aust.

[shaman]

Sorry to hear about your recent dramas mate.
Sounds like scary stuff but on the upside I feel you have made more fishos aware of the risks. I myself have always thought you would have to be further north to be at risk of poisoning but apparently not.
I truly wish your family and their young friends a speedy recovery.
Billy

[wayne_cook]

scarry stuff!
Hope alls well.

Do toxin levels drop in fish if diet changes or does it just keep building up?

[FishOn]

Darn, darn, darn. Hope you all get well soon.

Here is the Lehane report (about 80 pages)http://www.affa.gov.au/corporate_doc.../ciguatera.pdf

This report has a lot of info related to Queensland.

It also mentiones the Cigua-Check a couple of times, one is 'Cigua-Check is most sensitive for the detection of ciguatoxin at the concentration that causes clinical symptoms in humans (equal or greater than 80 pg/g fish (0.08 ƒÝg/kg). Ciguatoxin is not detected by Cigua-Check at levels of less than 50 pg/g (or 0.05 ƒÝg/kg). Therefore, fish that are considered non-toxic by Cigua-Check may contain ciguatoxin and contribute to a cumulative effect. In some cases one meal of such fish may be sufficient to cause illness.'

I have a read that the ant test does not work conclusively. I recall in a report somewhere that cleaning Ciguatera infected fish can cause tingling in the hands.

'Spaniard King' can I ask a couple of questions:

Where was the fish caught?
How was it prepared - filleted, steaked etc?
Were any of the vital organs (including the head or roe), cut or consumed?
How was it cooked?

Kind regards
Trevor

[Spaniard_King]

Trevor

The fish was caught 4-5klm SE of the Tweed Bar
The fish was iced in a water brine with extra salt imediately and filleted approx 3 hours later.
Non of the fishes organs were consumed or cut/damaged during preperation
The fish was cooked on baking paper on a BBQ plate coated in egg and bread crumbs and cooked using olive oil.

cheers

Garry

[Burley_Boy]

This topic has caused great concern in me and it is an eyeopener for me.
It seems that this poison is quite common yet extremely poorly understood or studied. Both in its effect and its occurence and cure.
That one company in Hawaii has a Cig test Kit while the scientific community states that there is no accepted test for either the poisoning of fish or of humans, the determination of the poisoning is 100% symptom based.
This is a huge problem as many cases would go without classification.

That I can't go fishing and offer my friends a meal without being sure I'd leave them in a coma is shocking. We had friends over on the weekend and fed them pelagic, the woman was pregnant. I'd be devastated if something happened.
I knew stuff all about this before and would be more concerned about this stuff than dioxin in Sydney Harbour so I'm not sure if the public is well enough informed. It occurs in Snapper too. That Gary gets slammed with it is a shock and brings the subject very close to home.
Maybe a different thread should be started just on Ciguatera, is it kept quiet to keep the industry rocking along?? Both for tourism, fishing and tackle shops?

Not Happy!
BB