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Thread: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

  1. #46

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    where are we suppose to talk about these ideas? I dont care if ppl are green pink black or any other damn enviromental colour. this is a forum to discuss ideas and this one is about saving our bay for the future. Permanent closures are NOT an answer so we have to come up with ideas to fight them. Just saying they are no good isnt an arguement.

    I have sent this forum addy to recfish to ask their opinion in regards to rolling closures. If they tell me they are not workable or ridiculas then I will drop it. But if they agree that it is worth going on with then I will.


    Kel

  2. #47

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Whilst I applaud your efforts to come up with viable alternatives to closures which you can present to the pollies, it is vitally important that you understand the political process through which these proposals will go.

    Gary Fooks is right; the subject matter is getting off course. The potical process does not allow for you to make alternative suggestions. I know this doesnt sound nice but its the truth. I will demonstrate this for you - but for those who wont read beyond these next lines - know this: It doesnt matter how good or how valid or well thought out your alternative proposals are - they arent worth anything (as yet) at the governement level.

    The Governement isnt looking for alternatives - they are looking to shore up their own positions and they believe they can do this by placating to the extreme greens. What we have to do is prove to them that they are wrong. The ONLY way to prove to them that they are wrong is to threaten their voter base. #So we must show them that if they pursue this option - their jobs are in jeopardy.

    Let me enlighten you as to the political process and why I say that alternatives are no use (yet).

    When legislation is passed by an act of parliament, it is first "read" and debated in "the house" the subject of the debate is the terms of the legislation, there is rarely an opportunity to suggest alternative approaches here. #If the terms of the legislation dont survive the first reading and consequent voting they can then be amended - still only looking at the terms of the legislation - no alternatives. #They can then - once altered - or even unaltered be reread to the parliament - more debate... then voting... still no alternatives. #When these guys actually vote, it's based on a YES/NO system... They dont get to say No I dont like that idea - I have a better suggestion - they only get to say yes or no to the terms of the legislation as outlined in said legislation. #


    So... its not until the legislation is defeated are there opportunities for alternatives. #So how do we get it defeated - or better yet never discussed (changed) in the first place? #Yes the review is due - but they CAN adopt a do nothing approach...

    We get them so scared that if they pass the new "green" rezonings that they will lose their seats at the next election. Currently they fear losing the "green" vote - we have to make them fear losing our vote... its the ONLY thing pollies understand and the motivation for their existence.

    The environment minister doesnt care how many other good ideas are out there - she only cares about her own job and thats it.... period.

    Give you an example - when the Feds tried to push through taxation reform (GST) there were 2 alternative proposals that were dismissed out of hand - even though both of these proposals returned more revenue to the Govt. and reduced waste and retape and paperwork. #The problem was if the Govt adopted these measures they would have to reduce the size of the Tax dept. Losing many senior public servants - so instead they increased the size of the Tax dept and the rest is history.

    They dont care about us.... they only care about whats good for them and their mates - its sad but true. #So to say that we should focus on viable alternatives - is all interesting and I support many of the ideas - but its not actually going to help much.... to fight a bureaucracy - you have to know how they think and operate.... Let KC and the boys help guide you through this process. #

    Continue to develop alternatives - but use them when the time is right - not now. #The time will be right when KC and the FP say it's right - they will know when to develop policy and know when to implement it - and that will be after they have legitimacy (see my other post) which is after they have someone in power - a senate or state seat. #It could happen sooner - if we are able to help them get enough support that the Govt fear us more than the Greens - but thats the ONLY way.

    Sorry to rain on anyones parade - but it had to be said... lets get back on track.

    thanks guys,

    Adam




  3. #48

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Alas Adam..TFP will not have a legitimate seat in the Qld Govt prior to the decison being made on the Bay. I also know how the system works and the only alternative is to be totally against any legislation for closures of any part of the Bay. The best bet at the moment would be to contact the candidates in your own electorate and ask how they view any closing of any areas of the Bay that may occur during their term if they are elected. For the majority of us, we cannot make a vote for TFP even if we want to so the next best thing is to try to ascertain what the candidates in your electorate have to say on the issue.

  4. #49

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    For the majority of us, we cannot make a vote for TFP even if we want to so the next best thing is to try
    Neither can I mate...DONATE..ease the financial pain

    JMO
    Gazza

  5. #50

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Hicksy, I don't know what you see as "the gloves are comming off", #I've thought this has been rather progressive and reserved.

    As for missing my point about kids keeping undersize fish etc, I'm certain if you pay attention to what I wrote, not what you think I wrote, you'll see my point was that the exploitation of undersized fish, and excessive bag limits has to be addressed in other ways than simply more policing of the same. That by the targetting of boat ramps etc will not adress the more serious vilators of this issue. I then gave examples of the areas which were far more serious than (the alagorical) issue of catching some kid with a small fish.

    I never condone, nor do I, nor will I; keeping undersize fish. So please, if anyone takes the gloves off, have the point straight first. Nothing worse than taking a swing at someone only to find you heard wrongly. Rather embarressing I think.

    I'm rather moved my the stellar example you parade with self gratifying regailing of your fishing practices, but if I may join in your pride parade, I haven't kept a fish in nearly ten years, nor have my children; of any size. I think the wonderful ambition you have being sensible with fish reserves is well understood by most these days, least ways those whose posts I personally have read here. But it's really neato you mention it anyway. Just incase someone does in fact condone such things as keeping undersized fish.

    As absurd as it may seem to many, growing up fanatical about fishing as I have, I'm not that turned on by the eating of them, and to be completely candor, my kids are more keen about fishing than eating fish too. So if you'd like to enter a "pissing match" of who's more conservative with their fishing catches than who; well...I hope you get my point.

    Buying fish will always be more economical than catching them, and so I can only imagine that my extremes on this issue are echoed at least to some degree in all fishermen.

    Anyway, all I wanted to clear up is I was attacking no-one, and I'm rather surpised that such defensiveness of such broad issues could be so defined; and that I don't condone destruction of undersize fish or excessive catching of legal ones.

    If you read the post again (slower pehaps?); you'll discover I revealed #my distain (and there-fore agree in principle with marlin) for abuse and neglect of size and bag limit laws, and cited even more areas needing attention in such terrible abuse. Far from disagreeing, I expanded the paremeters needing policing, and the fact the plain conventional stepping up of watching boat ramps, jetties etc will only catch the occassion kid doing the wrong thing. The fact I know around the clock policing of boat ramps will never touch these perpetrators I mentioned is by no means an offense or quarrel over the principle at large.

    Rightly said no-one should keep undersized fish, the education program has worked well it seems. Consider though doubling the fine on some kid with an undersized fish, and ask yourself what impact that will have on the points my post made.

    What's being brought in at boat ramps by fools, and kids on jetties pales in comparrison to the evils being conducted "out there" which will never be caught by such methods as policing because these fish being destroyed by major offendors who do in fact impact the fishery very seriously- are never kept, never brought home, and are dumped AT SEA (or on beach at weigh in). Perhaps it's somthing you have to have actually seen to understand. I guess it is hard to get ya head around just what kind of waste I'm talking about without actually seeing it. I just assumed everyone had seen what I was describing.

    But anyone here that's fished in moreton beach club scenes (attened SQAFCA comps etc) knows to some degree what I'm talking about. Or anyone that's done time on a trawler in the bay.

    HOWEVER! My point about the little kid wanting to show his little fish to mum being caught by around the clock surveilance was not in defence of him doing so; as much as it was the awful expense of catching such an insignificant offender weighed againt the picture as a whole.

    I don't mean to belabour the point, but I do dislike the taste of another's words in my mouth.

    Besides, as mentioned, politics rarely has anything to do with what people really want, as pointed out at least three times in very valid ways in recent posts. What needs to be figured is what the fishing community wants, and then either supporting or fighting the legislation.

    Argueing who's the better Rex Hunt than the other hardly rates.

    Take care
    rob

    Hell I really didn't want to go that far into that, but gee..I thought the point was fairly straight forward in the first place. I hope it doesn't take that kind of effort to make every point.

  6. #51

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Hey Rob,

    Geez haven't you gone off on a tangent.

    My comments about the gloves coming off weren't directed at you. It wouldn't take a very wise or astute person to work out that my comments were about the dialogue exchanged between Grand Marlin and Pin Head.

    So get off your high moral ground and perhaps take some of your own advice and read the post again (slower perhaps).

    Hicksy

  7. #52

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Well you have indeed my deepest and sincerest appologies if I wrongly accused you of misconstruding my point.

    Being so gracious as you have been; if you would just explain how my point of all that which I had to re-define fits in with -

    #Despite what the majority seem to think Grand Marlin made some very valid points. As fisherman we also have a duty to ensure fish stocks will be around for generations. This doesn't mean we all suddenly turn green. All this means is we have to accept responsibilties for our actions. #

    No one should take undersize fish, whether you are seven or seventy. If you want to share the moment when your son and daugther caught a fish and it is undersize, carry a camera. We should act responsibly and teach our children to be responsible when fishing as well. #

    As a recreational fisherman, I try and do the right thing eaxch time I go fishing. I only hope that other fisherman do the same thing. If they don't then they should be penalised. #

    #
    #
    If I was the only person mentioning a kid keeping undersized fish, and this indicates assult on that point; who then should I assume you were addressing? #Was it not I? If not, how so?

    It wouldn't take a very wise or astute person to work out that my comments were about the dialogue exchanged between Grand Marlin and Pin Head
    Common....you can do it...admit it. The BS about oversimplifying the undersize fish issue was directly regarding my post; in an attempt to dodge the very essence of my point. That policing for undersized fish willonly catch the odd fool here and there, and some poor kid..

    You say "I try to do the right thing" and so I suppose that implies you periodically "fail" from time to time to do the right thing. They are the ones such policing will catch, not the serial abusers who are beyond the reach of the law, and do the bulk of the damage.

    The "gloves off" passing comment you made I have no trouble believing was to do with as you say. But then I never thought that was aimed at me. I just disagreed that a person strongly objecting constitutes a "fight".

    Make ya a deal; I'll come down off the "high horse" when you can admit your guilt of oversimplifying what I said, or indeed, misdirecting the entire point. You know, once it's permanent, it's hard to get out from under.
    Anyway, admit it or not, I hope you understand now.

    rob

    PS. I don't think this is "off on a tangent" at all. Keeping small fish and over filled creels are central issues. Dismissing the depth of the problem with false reasoning the way you did is seriously ignoring a very important part of protecting the fishery.


  8. #53

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    What the??? are we in the twilight zone here?? Lets not slang off on each other.... imagine the greens or pollies or whoever is reading this... they'll be laughing their heads off - are we going to unite and fight against the potential loss of our right to fish the bay or are we going to bicker amongst ourselves?

    Chill out... peace bothers


  9. #54

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Again we are wandering off to stupid litle disagrreeaments that are a waste of time. Please guys can you concentrate on the topic or at least use the PM option .!!!

  10. #55

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adamy
    What the??? are we in the twilight zone here?? Lets not slang off on each other.... imagine the greens or pollies or whoever is reading this... they'll be laughing their heads off - are we going to unite and fight against the potential loss of our right to fish the bay or are we going to bicker amongst ourselves?

    Chill out... peace bothers
    So good, well done mate

  11. #56
    Bundy_Burp
    Guest

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    I'm sure the greenies are reading these forums and having a good chuckle to them selves after all we are probably lettting know which way we may try and fight the closures we all know they want .
    But what makes me wonder is why all the talk about rolling closures like they are the be all and end all of the problem they will have to be policed which will mean more DPI officers and because they are rolling thats going to mean even more spending will be needed to move DPI officers and equipment from area to area , lets face it the government has never liked spending money on any project if it doesnt need to (look at the hospitals).
    So all I see will happen with rolling closures is that they may be tried for a short time then we will be told they arent working and then it will be full time closures .
    It doesnt matter whether or not rolling closures seem to be a good idea or not its what they may very easily lead to that concerns me .

    Bundy

  12. #57
    gif
    Guest

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Adam

    I appreciate your explanation of the parliamentary process

    But as Moreton Bay is already a Marine Park, due for a 10 year review. Then is it possible that the drastic changes will simply go through cabinet and be tabled in the House. IE no debate?

    In other words we will lose Moreton bay by regulation not legislation?

    Look fwd to your thoughts.

    Gary

  13. #58

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Simplicity

    If you want a 50% closures of the entire park vote Beattie and his team

    If you dont want a 50% closures of the entire park vote for the Fishing Party

    Remember united you stand divided you fall

    Time to send a message >


    There will be days when the fishing is better than one's most optimistic forecast, others when it is far worse. Either is a gain over just staying home.

  14. #59

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    You cannot vote for TFP in this election..they are not registered.

    There 3 Independents who have allegiance to TFP..that is all...therefore the majority cannot vote for them...will have to make decisions based on what the local candidates stand for.

  15. #60

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Fooks
    Adam

    I appreciate your explanation of the parliamentary process

    But as Moreton Bay is already a Marine Park, due for a 10 year review. # Then is it possible that the drastic changes will simply go through cabinet and be tabled in the House. # IE # no debate?

    In other words we will lose Moreton bay by regulation not legislation?

    Look fwd to your thoughts.

    Gary
    Gary...As the current Marine Parks (Moreton Bay) Zoning Plan 1997 is under the Marine Parks Act of 1982 then hopefully any changes will have to be debated on the floor of the House.

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