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Thread: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

  1. #31

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    G'day All,

    Some very valid points and reasoning amongst all this.

    It is widely accepted that fishing pressure from both commercial and amateur influences is the cause of the depleted fish stocks.

    And...

    In my mind it is also obvious that there are only a certain number of fish to go around everyone - especially in the more heavily populated areas like Moreton Bay.

    So...

    Leave all areas open - don't close anything.

    But...

    1) Put in place a strict total allowable catch (TAC) for each species from set areas.
    That way, once the quota is caught for that area, then thats it for the year.

    2) Make the areas from say:
    Noosa to Caloundra
    Caloundra to Jacobs Well
    Jacobs Well to Tweed Heads

    3) It doesnt mean you cant fish, it just means that if the quota is caught for an area, then you have to put the effort in to travel to other places to fish.
    That way it is spreading the load on the resources we have and stopping over fishing in concentrated areas.

    4) Police it heavily, with huge fines and confiscation of fishing gear, including boats for people who choose to break the rules.

    5) Introduce licences to fish to help cover the expense of what would essentially need to be 24hr surveilance at all ramps.
    (please dont ask about the logistics of doing this at the moment, but anything is possible if the government wants it to be)

    6) Mandatory log in and out when on the water with all catches presented to the officer on duty when returning.

    or

    Self regulating with log books for all catches ... again with huge fines for non compliance.

    7) Maybe open and closed seasons for each species.

    8) Maybe also a total allowable catch per angler per year for each species from each area ... that way it is not open to being flaunted by the greedy and also the lucky people that have more time on their hands than others to go fishing.

    These are just basic ideas, not foolproof, but aimed at reducing the concentrated fishing pressure in certain areas to stop it being "flogged to death".

    Make the commercial and amateur anglers responsible for conservation and actually do something towards helping, instead of complaining about possible closed areas and lack of fish.

    Be responsible for our own actions.

    Be prepared to travel a bit to help sustain the fish stocks and spread the load of fishing pressure.

    Maybe this is the answer? Maybe its not the answer... but the fact remains that drastic change is needed to make the fishery sustainable long term.

    So whats it going to be ... continue as we are and end up with closed areas (up to 50%)

    or

    Come up with some other ideas to make our fishery sustainable.

    Now, before you throw crap at my suggestions, have some decent ideas of your own to replace mine.

    That way we might just start to be productive in solving the problems associated with this topic and avoid the permanent closures that no body wants to see implemented if there is "another way"

    Imagine seeing the headlines "Greens not needed - fishermen solve their own problems"

    When writing to the ministers as others suggest, give them something positive to work with.

    Whingeing that you dont want closed areas "just beacause you dont want closed areas" is really not going to help solve anything.

    A million whingers is no substitute for one good idea.

    There are real problems within the fishery that need managing effectively - so as a fishing community, lets grab this by the scruff of the neck, get the best ideas together and let us write the rules - not the greens.

    Cheers

    Pete

  2. #32

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?





    What The?

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    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?
    « Reply #30 - on: Yesterday at 5:33pm » G'day All,

    Some very valid points and reasoning amongst all this.

    It is widely accepted that fishing pressure from both commercial and amateur influences is the cause of the depleted fish stocks.

    And...

    In my mind it is also obvious that there are only a certain number of fish to go around everyone - especially in the more heavily populated areas like Moreton Bay.


    One of the big issues for TFPQ is this type of question and blanket "I recon" statement......we just don't know!! Not having a go at you here. We are all guilty of this.

    From our perspective it would be highly desirable if the numbers and breeding patterns were known and then used to determining the correct TAC and to see if slot sizing, bag limits and other management tools were better than closures. This should be the focus of Governments and fisheries managers NOW, not doing deals with the greens to stay in power.

    For example....and on one of the few fish we have much info on.......Coral Trout.

    Studies into Trout numbers. and there are a few, put the total biomass at around 2 millions tonnes and the current combined commercial and recreational catch was (pre commercial quota) estimated at 3% of that.

    The world accepted standard for a sustainable fishery with breeding dynamics of this species is 20% i.e. if you take 20 out of every 100 fish out in a year, then the spawning recruitment will replace these 20 fish with new ones.

    So, to "manage" this fishery we get 33% No Take Areas, a commercial TAC down from 4,000 tonnes to 1500 and bag limits of 8 per angler...plus 3 by 10 day spawning closures (when only 6 or 7% of trout actually attend a spawning aggregation in the first place)

    And this for a fishery where the science indicates it is vastly UNDER fished. The GBR fisheries management, particularly on hard reef is politically motivated, not about protecting fish stocks.

    So, to Moreton Bay. What is the estimated biomass of Bream, Whiting, Flathead, Jew, Tailor, Snapper etc etc.? What are their breeding dynamics and as such what is a sustainable fishery for each species? Is slot sizing and spawning closures an option for this species? What is the real and unemotive impacts of some commercial fisheries, such as beam and otter trawl.? This has to balance with an acceptance that the fish stock is owned by everyone and everyone, not just recreational fishers should have access to it. We need commercial fisheries, but what we don't need is any form of fishery which is unsustainable and inshore trawl MAY fall into this catagory.

    It may (& this is just an "I recon " statement) be the case that the best way of keeping a breeding population viable is to harvest it. A bit like the best way to make grass grow is mow it.

    Studies on trout on the GBR actually show a greater number of fish on fished reefs than on unfished reefs. The size on unfished reefs is bigger but density if greater (by a substantial margin) on fished reefs.

    Dr Aylings theory appears to suggest that an unfished area establishes a stable population with very little spawning recruitment each season while a fished area has a very dynamic spawning population....nature working hard at keeping up with supply and demand.

    Anyhow...rambeling...The point being. We need the science, not well intentioned best guesses.

    If science supported closures, then so be it, but if there are other means of achieving the same end, without shutting people out and destroying businesses along the way, then they should be our first option.

    At the end of the day, no one, and certainly not TFPQ wants the Bay degraded or overfished. It needs to be looked after for both present and future. This is an enourmous asset to Brisbane and needs the right management regimes put in place so it can still be enjoyed, but enjoyed in a totally sustainable way.

    KC

  3. #33

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Pete...you have given the Minister the perfect reason to close the Bay. Give them an option that costs a fortune. Your idea of policing every ramp would cost at least $300,000 per annum per ramp...work out how many ramps between Caloundra and Southport and you will soon see how expensive it would be.

    Given the option of :

    a) pandering to the greens and closing the Bay for very little cost.

    or

    b) pander to the rec fishos by implementing some high cost option.

    The answer is simple, option a.

    You have given the Greens all the ammo they need...that rec fishos acknowledge that there is a problem...well I will not concede that until there is some definitve and long term research conducted which derives an absolute result. Until then I will oppose any closures and any license implementation.






  4. #34

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Pinhead

    I said do not ask about the logistics of this at this time .. so you did.

    I also said if you are going to throw crap, give some better ideas ... you didnt.

    Just write a letter of whinge to the minister and be done with it, you have stood up to be counted... good on ya




  5. #35
    gif
    Guest

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    I said that I wouldn’t join the discussion except to clarify.

    Its important to understand these closures are as much about one Government Department vs another. And if you think that Government departments are coordinated between them you are sadly wrong. In fact I have had many issues to solve when different sections of the one Department don’t coordinate.

    So what many of the above commentators have missed is the fight here is between Fisheries and Dept of Environment.

    Fisheries look after management of fish stocks. So they come up with bag limits and size etc. Much of the discussion above is talking about managing stocks - but that is not even an option and so the discussioin is going off track

    Dept of Environment doesn’t have inspectors or any “tool” to manage fish. They just apply Closed zones. Its the typical Greenie attitude that wants people locked out of nature

    It is the Dept of Environment that manages Marine Parks, overrides Fisheries and will close out Moreton Bay. Just as they have from Hervey Bay to Cooktown.

    And Fisheries will just sit by idle and say nothing. (again)

    Gary

  6. #36

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Hi Gary,

    Your definetly right that the GBR closures had nothing
    to do with the management of fish stocks, the only straight
    answers I was able to get related to the protection of turtle
    and bird nesting sites.
    I fail to see how a few lines hanging out of a rec boat 40km from
    nearest land was endangering these sites, especially when boat
    loads of tourists are stil allowed to trapse all over the place.

    Unfortunately it would appear that the fishos/boaties of moreton
    region, stil have little idea of what to expect

    If I may be so bold as to suggest some likely targets for major
    closures will include areas of seagrass, areas frequented by
    turtles and dugongs, bait grounds, sheltered waters and I would
    predict that you will not be able to fish within at least one km
    of any reef that currently attracts large clusters of boats.

    Gary if you think this is way off mark or too alarmist, please have
    Mr Ausfish delete, I would point out that I am not in the know
    so to speak, But base my comments on experiece gained in
    dealing with GBR closures.

    If it was just about fish stocks, it would be nowhere near as
    complicated.

    Cheers Mick

  7. #37

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand_Marlin
    Pinhead

    I said do not ask about the logistics of this at this time .. so you did.

    I also said if you are going to throw crap, give some better ideas ... you didnt.

    Just write a letter of whinge to the minister and be done with it, you have stood up to be counted... good on ya #


    why make a statement if you have not thought the logistics through..that is just plain ludicrous.

    I did not throw crap..you wrote it...I merely commented on it..I don't want any better ideas...I want things to stay as they are..you are basing your opinions on your thoughts..I want results of accurate research done prior to any changes to what the situation is now.

    My opinions based on my fishing results are: there are plenty of fish so leave the situation as it is..there.you have based your opinions on your gut feelings and i have done likewise based on mine. If you feel so strongly that closures are definitely required then I suggest membership of the Greens ios what you may require...they will agree with any ideas of closures whereas the rec fishos should be totally opposed cos as soon as the Greens get an inkling that rec fishos are in favour of any form of closures then it is all over. Wake up and look at what has happened elsewhere and think again...before you start citing stupid ideas costing millions for people to stand at ramps etc come up with some facts..not your own feelings..some true scientific facts based on proper research..until then..leave the situation as it is.

    Why the hell do people want to meet the Greens half way or any bloody way..shut them out of the picture wherever possible.

  8. #38

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Gary Fooks has a good point regarding closures being as much about one political party verse another, as much or more as any "real" issues.

    Take Nuke power for example. I joined into the pros and cons arguement of that when the gov. raised it. But then I read a very interesting article by a political annaylist who observed the Labor party has a split in it's ranks on this issue, and regardless of if, how,when, why, or never; John Howard wants to introduce Nuke Power, the real poliitcal benifit of his suggesting it isn't in trying to meet the needs and desires of the population- but instead, to exploit and widen the split in the labor party as the issue continues closer to election.
    Divide and concour. Not concern and caring of a nation at all. (by the way it's this kind of goings on in politics than makes me more likely to become a "non-voter" every day. So please don't think I have a bias on this or any issue)

    I just want to use that as an example, not an issue. My point is no matter what wonderful forward thinking, evidences or positive points might be projected, it can sometimes be completely in vain.

    I suppose that's rather pessimistic, because in spite of that: I think we as a citizenry shouldn't ever be quiet on a subject because we think we won't make a dif. Perhaps one of the greatest problems we have in AUS. today in our indifferent attitudes to politics. (which is what forces me to cling to my right to vote)

    IN defence of closures having no effect long term, because once the ban is lifted, it would potentially be picked clean; I think that beggars the fact such closures and re-openings can be managed (in whatever form they may ultimately take). Take the facts regarding Coral Trout presented by KC.

    No matter what species is suggested, a similar ratio exists. Not similar in numbers, but in sustainability. The larger the adult base of gene pool for breeding, then the larger the amount of fish that can be removed without damaging the stable pool of bredders which naturally re-stock it.

    So, as long as bag limits and size restricts are considered, the end result isn't a gluttonous free for all, destroying a few years re-stocking; rather, it offers a larger chance for people to relaibly catch the bag limit sustainably alotted them. That's all. But isn't that somthing?! It's a hell of a lot brighter outlook for all that fuel, bait and effort expended each weekend than present at least.

    And personally, I know my opinion on policing undersize fish isn't going to be over popular either.

    Of course undersize fish need to be returned, and bag limits observed. But I shudder at the thought of some poor bugga taking his kid fishing, and the sinle only fish the kid catches is a touch under sized, it being taken home so the kid can live the buzz a little longer and eat it; but instead having their arses busted at the ramp, fined into another orbit and loosing the car to boot.

    All while trawlers toss over impossible to police ubelievable quantities of undersize fish every 90 minutes on avergae multplied by the amount of trawlers working at the time.

    I recall growing up in a very successful morteon bay club, which A graders reliably caught 100 elbow slapping whiting, B graders maybe 50, C graders somewhere between a dozen a 50 and juniors the wild card. Every fortnight, a thousand or better (sorry i haven't done the calculations) fish were dragged out and taken home.

    This was complicated by this style of competitive fishing working on speed, meant anything undersized and belly hooked was ripped to shreds with fingers of surgeons and the "protected" fish by law being tossed over the shoulder as if "so much" junk. Completely free of any fear of prosecution.

    One day (out of many) I recall glancing behind us as we waded a sand bank between Redeers point and Strady, as I heard a strange "sucking" sound. The water was awash of undersize grass sweetlip, all gut hooked, all raked open, and tossed away. Between a dozen of us, in no time at all, the tide was carying at least a hundred sweetlip that would never see the table.Club rules stringently banning the taking of undersized fish closely adhered to but dead all the same.

    No number of gov officials standing at boat ramps would change this, nor would on the spot inspections, unles they can prove who actually caught and killed what.

    Morning times as the weigh in encroached, people hurredly measuring suspect fish kept in the bag all night, being meaured at the last moment and tosed into a pile, means I have memories of literally hundreds of bream and sometimes whiting piled or scattered all over the beach as the weigh in progressed.

    I'm sure many people on these boards share the very same memories.

    But I believe that this attitude has altered to some extent with time, and besides, my main point is I'm in full agreement that unrestricted limits, and killing undersized fish is shameful; but the only way of policing it is more likley than not only going to catch some poor kid who wanted to keep the first fish he ever caught, so he can show mum; and not the real cause of any limit restrcitions being abused.

    Yeah, teaching him a lesson at 6 years old might set him straight the rest of his life, and I personally encourage my kids to toss back all their fish, but the idea of slapping people over the nose with a rolled up paper for an undersized fish, while as I say, trawlers dump hundreds of kilos of undersize fish over the edge every day unpoliced doesn't seem right. The recreational wastage has been altered to a large extent, but nothing has changed the way trawlers work away at destroying undersized fish like some mechanical beast. The prawns caught and presented to the customers weighed against the carnage out there is miles out of ballance.

    If you haven't had the dis-pleasure of working a trawler, then you can't imagine what I mean. The picture of wasted sweetlip as I described is pale by comparrison.
    One thing that turned me on about trawling was the excitement of the Tuna schools after every shot.

    We'd run one direction for 30 minutes, then go back along the same run the opposite way, then back once more. Sort the catch, and for every few 9 litre buckets of prawns we'd get, we'd toss over a few100 litre crates of "trash fish. Maybe a dozen crates, but subtracting the Happy Moments and countless undersized crabs, and squid too small to mess with, a few crates would have been purely undersized fish.

    As we dumped it over, the Tuna would appear from nowhere and feed like mad. It was heart thumping to watch and although that much was fun, consider the fact the fish werre on hand at any moment to eat the undersized fish, and you'll understand the Tuna at least know where the concentrations of "berly" exist.

    When little kids wanting to impress their mums with a fish 22 and half centremetes long, risk being fined and loosing their fishing gear, while Tuna at least know where the abundant waste is perpetuating; I think it's just not going to have the effect desired.

    Take care all
    rob

  9. #39

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    A lot has been written on this issue lately and it seems the gloves are certainly coming out.

    The unfortunate part about this whole process is, if you don't agree with main stream everyone starts having a chop at you. If stead of being destructive ever thought about being constructive.

    A wise old man once said no idea is a stupid idea.

    I have stated before that I would support stronger policing of fish catches. (E.g. More Fisheries inspectors)

    The potential impact on Moreton Bay is not the same as twenty years ago. All one has to do is check the ABS and see the population has increased in the moreton bay area and also check state government stats on boat registration. Then add in GPS's advances in fishing equipment etc

    Despite what the majority seem to think Grand Marlin made some very valid points. As fisherman we also have a duty to ensure fish stocks will be around for generations. This doesn't mean we all suddenly turn green. All this means is we have to accept responsibilties for our actions.

    No one should take undersize fish, whether you are seven or seventy. If you want to share the moment when your son and daugther caught a fish and it is undersize, carry a camera. We should act responsibly and teach our children to be responsible when fishing as well.

    As a recreational fisherman, I try and do the right thing eaxch time I go fishing. I only hope that other fisherman do the same thing. If they don't then they should be penalised.

    The thoughts of "there are plenty of fish so leave it be" only adds more wieght to the greens arguement and does diservice to fishermen.

    If and when we have to run the arguement about possible closures we have to offer the government well researched, viable and funded alternatives. We can beat the opponents at their own game. It is not a matter of meeting them half way.

    I will be fighting tooth and nail to stop any proposed closures of Moreton Bay but I am not opposed to alternative measures to look after the sustainibility of fish stocks so my children and my childrens children can do what i love to do and that is fishing.

    If this means bigger fines for the grubs who constantly take undersize fish/crabs or being subjected to inspections each time I get back to the ramp then so be it.

    Our bay our future, it all comes back to how we manage it.

    HICKSY


  10. #40

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Just recently signs have gone up down at Paradise Point showing the new fish sanctuary for the Moreton Bay and Marine Parks.
    it shows yellow areas from Coombabar Lakes to the bottom of Russel Island and around Saint Helena and from Peel to dunich and north to encompass all the sand bank areas to just past south passage.
    while the sign says you can still fish these areas.
    the Australian Marine Conservation Society which is the government body that lobbies to get these closures is looking at 30 to 50% closures from the 1 % we currently have.
    while I don't know for sure it's only a pen stroke to close these santuaries and that's it for fishing the pin to the coomera or around Saint Helena
    or the Rous Channel for that matter.
    i have a Email from this Gov body and their reply is we dont have any plans as yet or maps of proposals but they said they well be pushing for 30 to 50% closures when the revue starts next year, they did say that they hope for a science based revue not a pollitical one.
    our club has all reddy started getting together clubs on the gold coast to get something going we will be getting intouch with the fishing party to get pointers.
    Cloud 9
    then it realy gets ughly

  11. #41
    gif
    Guest

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Cloud Nine said
    "Australian Marine Conservation Society which is the government body that lobbies"

    The AMCS is not a government body. As a not-for-profit charity, AMCS is a membership-based society which is managed by a group of dedicated volunteers and supported financially and participatory by thousands of people around Australia.
    AMCS operates a head office in Brisbane,

    AMCS are clever professional Greenies who are based in Brisbane and are the main or front group that wanst to close teh Bay and oceans to all fishing. No Marin park is tough enough for them. They have been clever enough to gain charity status ( which takes a lot of legal work) so any donation to them is tax deductible! I know real charities that can’t gain that status.


    They also guard themselves. You can donate but you cannot join them. Very clever tactics.


    Gary

  12. #42
    gif
    Guest

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    I am not supposed to say anything yet ....

    But there is an overarching alliance being formed... What some are trying to do is get all the Clubs and TFP and commercial and industry - all together under one banner for joint efforts.

    The idea goes liek this: You may not agree with all these but we need to bury our differences to fight for Moreton Bay . My enemies enemy is my friend

    Watch this space for news.

    But in the time ask yuor club to join or contact me

  13. #43

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Kel,
    I agree with the concept of rolling, or at least timed, closures. My old man used to talk about haveing a system where each river was closed for one year starting at the Nerang and the next year Coomera, then Logan etc etc until you got to Caboolture, then start at the Nerang again. This would give a rolling cycle of 7 years (much like the farmers old fallow field every 7 years). It would give the fish stocks a fighting chance and doesnt ban anywhere permanently. That was just his opinion and it wasnt based on any sort of research.
    My biggest concern is that we need to ensure some scientific rigour in the process. We need to:
    1. Have an aim for each and every measure taken. What SPECIFICALLY are we trying to acheive (eg increase the stocks of breed X to over size ABC cm to a number in this region). This needs to be very definite, not some generic greenie message used as justification for wholesale closures.
    2. It needs to be measureable so we know whether it has been acheived or not. Maybe further methods are required, maybe it can be backed off a bit.
    3. There needs to be other types of research done BEFORE the closures to establish baselines of what the measureables are at present. At to determine the causal factors. It may be that closures are not effective anyway. Often these causal factors will be different for different breeds.
    4. All methods of menegement need to be examined, perhaps modified baglimits or size limits are more appropriate, perhaps just seasonal closures.

    I guess my stongest point is that whatever managment is put in place it needs to be backed up by science not just rhetoric.

  14. #44

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    Rather I totally agree with you. Scientific baselines and outcomes are a must to any measures taken in concern to our moreton bay. A tagging program or the like needs to be undertaken by DPI or another relevant authority. I dont know what other research can be done to quantify a baseline of fishstocks but I am sure there are a few programs that the science types could use towards this end.

    I dont know about others but I am more than willing to have an area closed for a couple of years if in the end fishstocks are greatly improved. A program using the baseline evidence could then be undertaken before the next area is closed.

    Once the science is established this program could be implimented anywhere at anytime to creat a sustainable fishing enviroment for us all.

    I can already hear a few here going oh no, not this cr@p again. And I must admit that after the bagging I got by a few for suggesting it in the first place I was tempted to give up on the idea, but no, after talking to a few ppl here and elsewhere I have decided that im not going to make those few ppl that bagged me happy. I am going to push this idea as far as I can and I will listen to anyone who has an idea that contributes to it. What are you willing to sacrafice to save our bay for the future generations?

    Uneconomical ideas like putting dpi instectors at every ramp is no solution to creating a sustainable fishing enviroment, the revenue is not there for it and even with fishing licences and the like the money will never be there. Extra dpi staff is important and I would like to see more on the water and patroling boat ramps, but to cover every ramp is just a joke.

    Decreasing bag limits or introducing bag limits on some species is a must and long over due in my opinion. Bream and whiting in particular should have bag limits and an increase in the legal size. These are the species that most of us cut our first teeth on and need to be protected for everyones benefit. The limits placed on us re flathead was a great step forward but other species need the same in order to have them in the future.

    To those who want to critise this idea are more than welcome if you have something better to put in its place, if you just want to bag it for the sake of bagging then why bother.


    Kel

  15. #45

    Re: Moreton Bay Closures - what's happening?

    I would love to be a member of any green group that is pushing for closures..just print out a lot of the posts on here and present them and say..look..rec fishos are also in favour of some of closures..talk about giving the enemy some ammo. or don't you think they may read forums like these..by all means have your opinions and ideas but do not put them on here for the green groups to use as ammo unless that is what u really want.

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