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Thread: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

  1. #121

    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul071978 View Post
    For me itís pushing the current tech envelope too much and thus have premature early failure after a sizable investment. Going the lead acid path adds around 200kg to a 6m boat which is a recipe for disaster
    the problem is with the MK unit not the lithium batteries.

    Think of it this way- the lithium battery is a hose supplying water, the MK is a sprinkler that is sensitive to excessive usage on full. Now an AGM setup has the voltage dropping as the MK uses up the charge of the batteries - hence the water flow drops as the sprinkler uses it up and restricts the 'sprinkler operating on full' for a long period of time. The lithiums have a much more constant voltage supply, same as your power tools- goes pretty strong then cuts out suddenly at the end. Nothing wrong with slight over voltage or a lithium setup. I have opted for a single 36V battery from enerdrive in my system and will monitor and make sure the motor isnt operating above 8 for extended periods on spot lock.

    The MK just needs to develop a better way to keep the motor cool whilst working for long periods of time at full work capacity.

  2. #122
    Ausfish Addict disorderly's Avatar
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    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by baitable View Post
    the problem is with the MK unit not the lithium batteries.

    Think of it this way- the lithium battery is a hose supplying water, the MK is a sprinkler that is sensitive to excessive usage on full. Now an AGM setup has the voltage dropping as the MK uses up the charge of the batteries - hence the water flow drops as the sprinkler uses it up and restricts the 'sprinkler operating on full' for a long period of time. The lithiums have a much more constant voltage supply, same as your power tools- goes pretty strong then cuts out suddenly at the end. Nothing wrong with slight over voltage or a lithium setup. I have opted for a single 36V battery from enerdrive in my system and will monitor and make sure the motor isnt operating above 8 for extended periods on spot lock.

    The MK just needs to develop a better way to keep the motor cool whilst working for long periods of time at full work capacity.

    I think thats a pretty succinct analysis Baitable...

    The graph below shows the difference between the batteries...

    As mentioned lead acid has a constant drop in voltage throughout the discharge cycle while the LiFePo4 has a higher and almost constant voltage all the way through to 90% empty...

    I think its something the boffins at the trolling motor factories really need to look at and come up with something that can handle both types of battery or a "Lithium version"....
    .

  3. #123

    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    Iím more impressed we got back onto topic! Itís a Christmas miracle. On a side note: Iím thinking of brain storming a safe guard for the mk as my idea of cooking 6000 bucks worth of motor is not exactly my idea of fun. Might look into a Bluetooth temp sensor tapped into the housing to monitor the temp of the motor somehow.

  4. #124
    Ausfish Addict disorderly's Avatar
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    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    Xmas miracle indeed..

    Just had a total gutfull of his harassment and bullying over the past year..

    I never experienced an internet stalker before..

    The Victron 712 monitor I have mentioned before has a separate fused wire that is a temperature sensor connected to the monitor via a shunt.....it can be set so an alarm goes off at whatever temp range you want...

    https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...2-Smart-EN.pdf

    and the bluetooth app makes it functional even to a technological dinosaur like me...

  5. #125

    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by fishtragic View Post
    Apologies if this post goes over old news in the above pages, I couldn't be bothered reading through the ##### measuring contest going on. I installed lithiums to run my 112lb MK September '19 after checking directly with Minn Kota at the boat show to ask if they will cover warranty if I do so. I was told definitely no problem with warranty but they advise against it. No issues for 6 mths then major malfunction of all electrics, motors, board, wiring. All due to 3 x 12v Lithiums in series producing 41V and too high a current draw for too prolonged a period. BLA repaired the MK under warranty without question. They did, however, say that after warranty period I'm on my own, fair enough. I have been running it since with the same setup without a problem. I was told by their service people to keep the power meter on the remote under 7 and I 'should' be OK, also to assist the self deploy manually to reduce load and to trim up before hitting stow.I have asked many companies, electronic gurus and anyone I thought may have a solution to this issue with no success. I also asked how lots of USA boats are using lithiums without damaging their motors and the reply was "they're damaging their motors". I rarely troll with it, mainly used for spot lock but now I'm just careful what conditions I use it, if too much current or wind it's back to anchoring but lets face it if your MK needs to be pulling 9 or 10 it's probably out of control for anchor fishing anyway.
    hey mate, can you please elaborate what was affected from the prolonged use at high speeds? i would be interested to find out what went bang to see if there is anyway to mitigate the issue. Was it issues with the immersed motor or something in the head unit?

  6. #126

    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    I think the question should be aimed at MK about their overheating issues....surely this day and with tech the way it is the overheating issue should have been overcome.

    Are the latest MK brushless tech yet???

    If not why the hell are they not?

    Even the cheapest Chinese battery drills are these days.
    Jack.

  7. #127

    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by disorderly View Post
    Its a bit of a quandary Shakey..

    In the end my choice to use them was based mostly on weight..

    So with a Lead acid type battery that should only be drawn down to a max of 50% you need a battery twice the size of LiFePO4 ( mine state 2000 cycles at 100% depth of discharge)..

    100Ah
    LiFePO4 =12-13kgs
    200Ah Lead acid = 42-45 kg

    with a 36v system times that by 3 and you start to get the picture that i would be carrying an extra 90 kgs in the mid to front area of the boat every trip....its rather significant...carrying 130-145kgs of batteries for the trolling motor is just nuts...

    Your battery guy obviously knows a lot more then me but I havent heard of any issues to any other boat components or accessories caused by the higher voltage of LiFePO4 batteries other then Trolling motors...has anybody got any experience with issues here..?

    If you also carry the same thinking of 2 to 1 real usable capacity over from good quality Lead acid to lithium then by using Calbs cells or similar to "make your own" the actual "real cost" of storage is not a hell of a lot more...it is however if compared to something like an Enerdrive purpose built 36v battery which really is a lot of money....

    I hope I've explained that in an understandable manner...

    Also I wonder if its the Trolling motor technology that isnt up to speed with the LiFePO4 batteries rather then the other way around...just a theory and happy to be proven wrong if thats the case...

    which ever is the case there are definite issues there and as mentioned by fishtragic its us that will be paying for it once out of warranty...
    Understood my friend. Yes weight is a major factor for you and others.

    I posted this with NO knowledge or experience with Lithium Batteries. I posted as I thought the Ďexpertísí opinion was interesting.

    Yes one day we will have small batteries with great power and little weight and I do hope all current electronics are being protected from the greater power range from these batteries.


    Shakey - If only I lived near the coast

  8. #128

    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    You'd think it would be better to de-tune the lithium batteries closer to the nominal 12/24/36 Volt standards, I bet the Chinese know how to blend sawdust with Lithium.

  9. #129
    Ausfish Addict disorderly's Avatar
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    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by shakey55 View Post

    Yes one day we will have small batteries with great power and little weight and I do hope all current electronics are being protected from the greater power range from these batteries.


    Shakey - If only I lived near the coast
    Thats an interesting topic in itself Shakey.

    According to this fella you dont want a battery like lead acid that loses too much voltage as it discharges as it not only affects the performance of the device but can prompt some to even go into a "power saving" mode when getting low...

    His original references are about Livescope performance of sonar units but he mentions other devices also..

    So it does seem that the higher voltage and flatter discharge curve is actually quite an advantage for the best performance of most electrical products... seemingly except MK trolling motors...

    Sonar Battery Issues-Livescope-Active Target- Hummingbird Mega Live-Garmin-Lowrance- Hummingbird - YouTube

    Also of interest...there has been no discussion of motorguides here...has anybody heard of lithium related issues with them..?

  10. #130

    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    baitable I didnít say lithium was the issue. MK just doesnít support the latest battery tech.... yet
    Last edited by Paul071978; 22-12-2020 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Typo

  11. #131

    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by disorderly View Post
    Thats an interesting topic in itself Shakey.

    According to this fella you dont want a battery like lead acid that loses too much voltage as it discharges as it not only affects the performance of the device but can prompt some to even go into a "power saving" mode when getting low...

    His original references are about Livescope performance of sonar units but he mentions other devices also..

    So it does seem that the higher voltage and flatter discharge curve is actually quite an advantage for the best performance of most electrical products... seemingly except MK trolling motors...

    Sonar Battery Issues-Livescope-Active Target- Hummingbird Mega Live-Garmin-Lowrance- Hummingbird - YouTube

    Also of interest...there has been no discussion of motorguides here...has anybody heard of lithium related issues with them..?
    Yep I've been running a 80lb 24v Motor Guide with lithium batteries (EV Works) for about 3 years, no problems with the unit stopping, however, I run an inline 12v to 24v Sterling pro charger (that runs off the outboard and saves charging the batteries when back home) and when you pull up to a mark the batteries are fully charged and initially sitting at around 26.8v (13.4 in each, seems standard for LifePO4) and the 'low battery' LED on the Motor Guide will be on red, this has never stopped the unit from running and after searching and checking the voltage and current in the system no faults were found, so am guessing the guide is picking up the voltage is 'different'. Would never go back from lithium, chargers quicker, last longer and lighter. Have a lithium as the house battery to start the outboard.

  12. #132

    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    Hey Cpt, don't you need a lead acid start battery between your OB and Sterling Pro? How do you charge a separate 12v lithium house? Is there a problem with running both OB (and hence charging the lithiums) and MG at the same time?
    It has always been my private conviction that any man who pits his intelligence against a fish and loses has it coming. ~John Steinbeck

  13. #133

    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimme5 View Post
    Hey Cpt, don't you need a lead acid start battery between your OB and Sterling Pro? How do you charge a separate 12v lithium house? Is there a problem with running both OB (and hence charging the lithiums) and MG at the same time?
    Following this one with interest as went on to the Sterling site and then Victron to work out whether it was worthwhile adding a dc to dc charger for the battery I'm going to get for my electric reel but I get lost in all the new technology. The diagrams all show the starter battery in the circuitry and lots of talk about "smart" alternators. From what I can figure out is I have a dumb alternator and can't work out whether when I use the electric anchor winch will it also try and drain the 20 ah lithium for the electric reel. At this stage I'll probably stay simple abd charge the LiFePo4 at home.

  14. #134
    Ausfish Addict disorderly's Avatar
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    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by cpt snapper View Post
    Yep I've been running a 80lb 24v Motor Guide with lithium batteries (EV Works) for about 3 years, no problems with the unit stopping, however, I run an inline 12v to 24v Sterling pro charger (that runs off the outboard and saves charging the batteries when back home) and when you pull up to a mark the batteries are fully charged and initially sitting at around 26.8v (13.4 in each, seems standard for LifePO4) and the 'low battery' LED on the Motor Guide will be on red, this has never stopped the unit from running and after searching and checking the voltage and current in the system no faults were found, so am guessing the guide is picking up the voltage is 'different'. Would never go back from lithium, chargers quicker, last longer and lighter. Have a lithium as the house battery to start the outboard.
    Nice to hear of your positive experience..

    Are they the Calb cells or another type of batteries..?

    Can you give some details of how many amps per hour you are putting back into your TM batteries when travelling..?

    Did you have to set the high voltage cutoff at 13.4v or does it just stop charging at that level..?

    and of course watching with interest on the queries from the fella's above..

  15. #135

    Re: Minn Kota and Lithium Ion batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimme5 View Post
    Hey Cpt, don't you need a lead acid start battery between your OB and Sterling Pro? How do you charge a separate 12v lithium house? Is there a problem with running both OB (and hence charging the lithiums) and MG at the same time?
    To run the outboard (and electronics) I have one 60ah LifePO4 battery [this starts the Honda 150], the Sterling Pro 12v-24v inline charger is connected to this battery and once this is fully charged it sends the extra to the two 60ah LifePO4 batteries [connected in series to give 24v]. The Sterling Pro has a selection of battery types, including LifePO4.

    Re running outboard and charging Lithiums as well as the motor guide at the time, no problem when the batteries are down a bit, when they are fully charged the LED battery light on the Motor Guide comes on but doesn't stop operation, so I tend to do most of the inline charging on the trip home and when flushing the motor, that way it has all settled down prior to the next trip. I've hardwired one of those volt meters that measure current (in and out) as well as %charge, so you can see how much current is being drawn when running the electric, plus how much charge is in the 24v system.

    All batteries are from EV Works, have had no problems for the 3 years on this boat, had a similar setup on the previous boat with 140Hp Suzuki. Previously, had 4 AGMs to run outboard plus electronics, then 24v for Motor Guide, by changing to Lithium this removed about 90kg from the boat, plus they charger quicker.

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