Anybody used Atomic Lithium batteries for trolling?

[GLXMAN]

Price looks good?
..........Gary

[disorderly]

Mate I have been looking at lithiums for ages now and from what I can see all the cheap brands and probably some of the not so cheap ones are just a bunch of lithium cells thrown in a case with a sticker to differentiate some brand that some guy have come up with to sell a pallet of batteries that he has sourced for the cheapest possible price by a eager bunch of Chinese factories that in some cases have very few years in the industry.....

As for quality I have no clue ..I don't really know why one 12v battery can be sold for $5-600 and other more reputable brands for double that price...whats the difference in quality?...the packaging ,the warranty and aftersales service, the wiring connecting the cells, the BMS and why can some batteries be used only in 12-24v while others can be used in 36v and higher....?

Anyway I chose not to go with the Ebay cheapies and have decided to go with 3.2v cells from EV works in that hope that they are a reputable company selling a decent product with good advice and service that sources from a company called China Aviation Lithium Batteries (sounds professional anyway doesn't it...) ..at more or less the same price as ebay anyway...

Time will tell I guess....

[baitable]

same old saying - you pay for what you get and poor man pays twice. If its for a non-cricitcal application like trolling where you wont get stuck on the water i'd say have a crack but if you anything related to running your outboards and getting stuck i would steer well clear!!!!

I have noticed a huge difference in the quality of my AGM's Full river vs 2-3 other brands.,.. my full river batteries are still within operating parameters after 6 years.. imagine the same theory would be applied to the lithiums especially in quality of materials used.

[fishing111]

I get the old saying the poor man pays twice, but I can't seem to find any information on where these things are made, Fusion, Atomic etc. I don't know if there made in the same factory and sent out where people just add different name/logo's on the same exact product. At least with the Fusion they supply a data sheet. Atomic batteries don't give a data sheet, and no physical address which I don't like at all that i can find! Some fly by nighter could be selling them out of his garage! If i'm reading the data sheet right you can't use the Fusions for 36 volt applications, only 24 volt, so I wonder if thats the same for the Atomics? I am not sure why you can't put 3 batteries in series with the Fusions, but assume it would not be a good result for your boat which has me worried about Lithiums in general. I get these are supposed to be safe and a different type to the lithium Samsung phone batteries and lap tops, however those past incidents on planes have me wary especially when you can't find information on them freely from the makers of the batteries themselves.

The link provided gives a lot of information that may relate to prospective purchasers. Think i'll steer clear as my fears seem very possible..glossy website promising this and that and thin on detail.
https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/



Part of the link above :
Drop-In LiFePO4 Batteries:

Drop-In batteries are most often sold in standard lead acid case sizes eg: group 27, 31, 4D, 8D etc. and they lack any external communication between the internal sealed BMS and the vessel.

Most of the drop-in batteries have been Chinese in origin, and this is not necessarily a bad thing, if you’re buying from a reputable manufacturer. The reputable part is harder to guarantee than one might imagine.
Where drop-in LFP batteries often fall flat is in marine specific engineering. These batteries were originally designed for telephone pole mounting where light weight and “drop-in” replacements for lead acid were critically necessary for the solar powered street lighting industry. The demand for this type of battery, especially in third world countries, is absolutely staggering. I know many boaters assume we are a large market but we are not and no, many of these drop-in manufacturers are not specifically building marine batteries for us, though they certainly are marketing to us. The application of a “marine” sticker, and perhaps even a well marketed brand name, on the plastic box, does not always denote a product that is well engineered or specifically designed for a cruising boat..
Unfortunately for our industry many of the “A” graded LFP cells used in the plethora of Chinese drop-ins are sold into the street lighting industry. For boaters this can mean the low-grade “orphaned” cells wind up in batteries that may look the same but are sold on Ali-xxxx, eBay or through other less reputable sources.
Drop-in batteries will likely be the future of LFP, and there are currently a few good manufacturers working to improve the shortcomings but, in my opinion, they are still not prime time ready. When they have improved the marine specific engineering it will definitely get mentioned here.

These Lithium batteries remind me of when LED lighting was the best thing since sliced bread. My experience with LED's wasn't great with multiple bloody failures, and even now you see new cars with them out. These batteries seem like a minefield, you may be lucky and you may not. Think i'll pass for my next set.

[disorderly]

I get the old saying the poor man pays twice, but I can't seem to find any information on where these things are made, Fusion, Atomic etc. I don't know if there made in the same factory and sent out where people just add different name/logo's on the same exact product..

Because I was bringing in a container with some room spare..I contacted 8-10 Chinese suppliers of lithium deep cycle batteries and also some solar panel suppliers to look at the possibility of bringing in a few pallets to onsell…

I didn't pursue it as I found it was just so overwhelmingly huge and complex to navigate which ones from which factory would be Ok...

The Chinese government seems to be helping to set up whole manufacturing precincts and cities for virtually every product we westerners buy and then you have more established factories selling product as well as many that have only been going for a year or 2 and new companies starting all the time yet there prices vary wildly but they mostly all tell you that their product is great quality...

you really need to know what you are looking at and spend some time in China and /or have some contacts there or else you are just one of the guys that's selling the maverick, atomic, Fusion, optimum etc.... its very, very cheap to import a container from China (can be as low as $600 for a 40 ft container)...all you need to do is go on Alibaba and order a container load from any number of cheap suppliers and put a fancy sticker on it and bobs your uncle...as to whether you are in business for long enough to honour any warranty claims and what the actual quality is like and even does it vary between batchs...….well that's anyones guess...

Having talked to various importers (everything from shelving to camper trailers) during my boat build its also apparent that that Chinese manufacturers have many different standards of workmanship as well...some guys have mentioned to me that they have had quality issues if just left in Chinese hands (they basically just do what they want or whats easiest) and unless they had people regularly going over there for QC and to keep on top of their processes then quality issues arose...in some cases I was told that some importers were even supplying certain important components sourced out of china to ensure the final product was consistent and of a high enough quality..

I see at the factory that my boat was built that even chinese labour is not cheap enough anymore and for some of their bigger projects they were bring in Bangladeshi welders to cut costs even further...I would expect this to become more common as the aspirational Chinese middleclass grows and becomes more educated and they expect higher wages and shy away from menial trade and labouring work...

But what I really want to know is what is the difference between a cheap Lithium and an expensive one...…?...is the lithium itself of varying quality..?...do some put less in..?..is the container its put in cheaper and not as strong....I'm stuffed if I know....its easy to just say "the poor man pays twice" but maybe the rich man just pays too much...?

[NAGG]

When I looked in LiFePO4s - I did the whole research thing & pretty well came out of it none the wiser All the things mentioned - quality of the cells / balanced , the management system , the construction , internal wiring …. warranty etc etc

The trouble is these things (particularly the brands) haven't been around long enough to prove their reliability , longevity , performance …… so it would be a roll the dice kind of thing - regardless .
In the end - I decided to pay a bit more and go with a known brand (Fusion) who have been around for years & are probably the best know Aussie company involved in the technology .


There are other companies (eg Enerdrive) with good reputations who are marketing their own batteries - but they are generally on the upper $$$$ range

Chris

[GLXMAN]

Tks for the heads-up
May have to do a whole lot more study!
...........Gary

[GLXMAN]

Much appreciated Chris
This is a steep learning curve,
I will have a close look at Fusion
..........Gary

[NAGG]

Because I was bringing in a container with some room spare..I contacted 8-10 Chinese suppliers of lithium deep cycle batteries and also some solar panel suppliers to look at the possibility of bringing in a few pallets to onsell…

I didn't pursue it as I found it was just so overwhelmingly huge and complex to navigate which ones from which factory would be Ok...

The Chinese government seems to be helping to set up whole manufacturing precincts and cities for virtually every product we westerners buy and then you have more established factories selling product as well as many that have only been going for a year or 2 and new companies starting all the time yet there prices vary wildly but they mostly all tell you that their product is great quality...

you really need to know what you are looking at and spend some time in China and /or have some contacts there or else you are just one of the guys that's selling the maverick, atomic, Fusion, optimum etc.... its very, very cheap to import a container from China (can be as low as $600 for a 40 ft container)...all you need to do is go on Alibaba and order a container load from any number of cheap suppliers and put a fancy sticker on it and bobs your uncle...as to whether you are in business for long enough to honour any warranty claims and what the actual quality is like and even does it vary between batchs...….well that's anyones guess...

Having talked to various importers (everything from shelving to camper trailers) during my boat build its also apparent that that Chinese manufacturers have many different standards of workmanship as well...some guys have mentioned to me that they have had quality issues if just left in Chinese hands (they basically just do what they want or whats easiest) and unless they had people regularly going over there for QC and to keep on top of their processes then quality issues arose...in some cases I was told that some importers were even supplying certain important components sourced out of china to ensure the final product was consistent and of a high enough quality..

I see at the factory that my boat was built that even chinese labour is not cheap enough anymore and for some of their bigger projects they were bring in Bangladeshi welders to cut costs even further...I would expect this to become more common as the aspirational Chinese middleclass grows and becomes more educated and they expect higher wages and shy away from menial trade and labouring work...

But what I really want to know is what is the difference between a cheap Lithium and an expensive one...…?...is the lithium itself of varying quality..?...do some put less in..?..is the container its put in cheaper and not as strong....I'm stuffed if I know....its easy to just say "the poor man pays twice" but maybe the rich man just pays too much...?

China is a minefield when it comes to manufacturing , manufacturing practices, on going quality and just doing business. You are 100% correct in what you have said . I have work contacts that have a lot of dealings with Chinese manufacturers and distributors and some of the stories will blow your mind . A bit like asking for a shot of Johnny Walker and Coca Cola ..... what you get can vary from a generic whiskey and cola to a generic whisky and Coca Cola and any other variation . Scarily they will use a copy of Johnny Walker and Coca Cola ...... in correctly labeled bottles which look legit (they will even pull out a certificate of conformance). If you catch them out ..... they will pour you the genuine JW and Coke and the price will go up - just don’t turn your back when you order another.
A local plastic and tooling business told me it took them several years to find the right Chinese tool shop to deal with ...... 1 in 50 and while they speak highly off them , they travel there several times a year and spend a couple of weeks there with them.
It sounds dramatic and incredulous ...... but that is typical practice and why International manufacturers set up in China with their own people .
sorry to digress...... but yeh I could imagine what it would be like going through Alibaba and finding a battery company to supply LiFePO4 batteries....... you would have no idea

Chris