Not wanting to hog Brett62's thread I thought I'd start a new one as it might have a different outcome and I don't want to muddy his waters with my solution. I run a Yammie F150 4 stroke outboard, I have and 820CCA crank battery and a 120 amp deep cycle house battery. The specs for the motor say that the Gererator (their terminology) has a maximum output of 36 amps. I run LED lights including running, anchor, cockpit and targa top lights, 2 GPS/Sounders, live bait tank which I want to put on a timer, an auto bilge pump, squid lights and a deckwash mostly running on the house battery. Oh, I forgot the anchor winch, a Stressfree MIDI 1400, and recently a pie oven.
Now room is a premium and I would prefer a third battery but it will be an emergency back up for longer trips as it will have to live in the well between the bunks but I have thought of a possible spot near the drivers seat.
First of all, maximum output of the motor is 36 amps, at what revs is this calculated, if just idling motors as in deep water work what would one expect the output to be. In this instance is there any advantage in having a DC/DC charger over a VSR.
A longer run of 1 to 3 hours I imagine would produce significantly more output, so the generator/alternator on the motor should in theory be putting the best charge into the batteries and a VSR sounds like the goods.
Often in shallower waters, up to 60 metres I will anchor and some times I need to reanchor a couple of times, the anchor does chew some amps. I usually have the motor running with throttle on to around 1500 RPM and both batteries on but I don't know if this is causing any issues with either battery.
Which is likely to give me the best outcome as the price of DC/DC chargers appears to be coming down in price so would definitely be an option.
I wouldn't bother with DC on that setup. You aren't running the motor long enough. Multi stage charge at home to keep them tip top and the motor will do the rest on the water assuming you don't have voltage drop to the batteries. I wouldn't run a VSR either, just the old rotary dial manual isolator. Tried and tested and simple which is usually better in a marine environment. Unless you are running solar and banks of batteries a complex management system isn't really required.
nil carborundum illegitimi
Dignity, watching with interest, I have same issues. i'm wanting to stay with 2 batteries 1 crank and one 140 amp AGM house but still a bit uncertain as to how best to charge. I was thinking DC/DC but then GBC's comment above makes me wonder? Not an expert in this stuff.
The problem is the anchor winch appears to drag a fair bit of current, with both batteries going to run it it means the start battery is getting a fair wack as well. The pie oven is used while driving mostly although not always. A VSR was on my radar for sometime until Brett62's thread but he has different issues. My setup is fine for a single overnighter but for a 3 day trip I'm looking for a little more assurance. Last overnighter I did both batteries took a fair bit longer on the charger at home after the trip although I had been doing work on the boat previously and hadn't topped them up before the trip.Originally Posted by GBC
Hi Dignity
Re the anchor winch Im yet to get a second battery, I’ve already wired in a change over switch so that’s all ready to go. I’ve got an electric anchor winch and granted I’m around Port Phillip Bay so most of my anchoring is in up to 20 odd meters, but as others have said in various posts I run the idle high to retrieve. I’ve had no issues with the battery setup as is. But I only do day tripping for 8-10 hours. And I don’t use a pie oven. I might use the anchor winch half a dozen times during my outings.
Id go with what GBC says.
Simple setup and use the changeover switch to keep your start battery safe on the water, and give your batteries a proper charge at home after your trip is done.
At the end of the day, no matter how long you are on the water (bar using solar) no matter what charging setup (VSR/DC-DC/c-o switch only) you’re only charging with the motor running anyway.
Jamie
Saltwater fishing, boat mad but has a job that gets in the way.
I went through all these questions when re-wiring the HH,last year and I tend to over research shit some would say.
Wired the anchor winch to the start battery and always have the motor running when operating the winch, this is because of the high current draw is better suited to a crank battery than a deep cycle battery. I wouldn't use both batteries to run the winch in case something goes wrong (Short circuit) and you end up stuffing both batteries....you never know.
I run the pie oven when underway but hooked up to the deep cycle battery its not problem running it a few hours when parked up, they draw ~ 2 amps from memory? LED's draw nothing and bait pumps 2-3 amps & intermittent no issue.
I have had a good run with VSR's so installed one with a three selector switch panel so each battery can be isolated separately. Highly recommend the VSR set up so both batteries charging while underway without you having to remember to switch between 1 or 2 to keep them both charged and as you know selecting 1+2 is asking for trouble and only to be used in emergencies. I did try to wire it so I could isolate the start battery and use the house to start the engine if needed (It has some crank ability too) and also use the start battery to run VHF if house crapped out but for some reason but it didn't work out so I need to go back and trace where I went wrong.
I put battery monitors on each battery, cheap as chips from TJM and ability to monitor batteries is very useful if out fro a few days and not doing much running around, peace of mind.
Did think about a third battery on board for a back up but not really required as got top of the range batteries and they are on smart charger 100% of the time when boat not in use. One of those little battery packs wouldn't be a bad idea for emergency starting though.
If I was running fridge / freezer and had solar panel would definatley consider DC-DC but with 2 even 3 days trips out to the reef the above set up is simple and effective.
Come and have a look if you want, think I did a bang up job for someone not in the industry
You aren't going to create more current to run/recharge from using a winch than what the alternator gives unless you have panels or another DC source in which case they will combine. I'd be keeping it simple. DC charging is great for some things but it isn't the answer in a lot of cases. Save your money mate.
nil carborundum illegitimi
There are a couple of "issues" with simply running a rotary battery selector without a VSR (or another automated connection) if you want to get charge into your house battery. First and foremost is the human factor - simply forgetting to engage the switch. That also leads into a second issue. Rotary switches should IMO never be turned with the engine running. I have seen these switches fail and while they are typically a "make before break" contact arrangement, should they manage to "break before make" the results can be somewhat expensive with damage being done to both the motor and any electronics that have insufficient tolerance to high voltage if they are on the same switch. In a "true" house bank set up the electronics won't be an issue but there will need to be another isolation point if you wish to isolate your boat from the house battery.
This means that (once again IMO) the best procedure in terms of a switch arrangement would be to set the switch to both before starting - only issue being that a lot of modern day electronics have become so voltage sensitive that the drop induced by starting will at best cause them to power down and reset or at worst cause damage thus the requirement for some sort of connection device that accommodates workarounds for these issues. As with most things 12 volt there are plenty of ways to "skin a cat".
Human factor aside, the simplest is three separate battery switches - one for each battery and one to parallel - you just need to remember to turn the parallel one on when running and never turn off the motor one while running unless both the house and parallel switches are on. You also need to make sure you turn off the parallel switch when you stop - it's a lot of remembering - too much IMO.
The VSR - simple little device - they can fail (as can any electronic device) and thus should always have a manual bypass switch. In a functional state will take care of any day to day charging requirements and look after your start battery. They would be the most widely available charging device with pretty much any auto sparky, boat chandlery, jaycar or 4wd shop stocking them in one format or another so even if they do fail (and you can't be bothered with all the remembering) finding a replacement shouldn't be too hard for the holidaying fisherman. a lot of the brands even seem to come from the same factory (or at least their cases do) so they will slot straight in to your existing holes and wiring.
DC-DC : an exotic VSR with better charging characteristics - most of which won't be utilized by your average outboard powered rig due to insufficient run time. More expensive and arguably harder to source if in an out of the way location. Some do offer an easy way to connect solar.
Diode charging via an ignition switched relay - needs an override for battery paralleling for emergency starting and never quite charges the house to full capacity due to the 0.6 volt drop across the diode.
Ignition switched solenoid on a timer module with an override switch - timer module keeps things separate for a predetermined time period and then parallels the batteries. A dash mounted overide switch can be fitted for emergency starting - usually a momentary switch so as to prevent it being forgotten about and thus having the start battery connected to the house full time. The main "issue" with this one is that the connection will be made regardless of what condition the start battery is in - thus taking charge away from it if it needs it.
Buy an E-Tec. These can have a secondary charge output fitted so that charge is supplied to both the start and the house banks. This is how mine is set up. Once again a paralleling switch is in circuit to allow for start battery issues. Other engine manufacturers may also have such kits available - I don't know.
There are probably other ways as well - plenty of ways to upset old puss.
What year Yam is it? Pretty sure the newer bigger Yamaha's have an optional isolated charge output specifically for house batteries. Check your manual. If if does, you may not need a VSR or DC-DC at all. Failing that, VSR is probably all you want. Given the house battery size v alternator output there is little risk of overcharging, especially given the engine run times you are quoting. If you want to be really sure, measure the voltage on the start battery after you start, and before you shut down. I dont think smart alternators have hit outboards yet, so it should be at around 14.4V if the battery is better than 70% charged but that will probably taper off as the charge comes up. The regulators on most outboards are fairly basic. OF course a DC-DC will still give the best performance, but I dont think you will get a whole lot more performance over a VSR. If it was me, I would go with the VSR.
As for the winch, I would connect that to the start battery. You are only going to winch when the engine is running anyway (and probably driving up on the anchor if you dont have a cat that sails up on the anchor like mine!), so you might as well do it on the battery that gets the primary charge. I am planning to fit a winch soon, and will be hooking that to one of the start batteries.
And a pie oven? What the f#ck are you guys doing on these boats!!!! Single exploder with a saucpan and a trivet makes a great oven. If you are a rich bastard then a double exploder so you can make a coffee and cook a pie. Mind you, I cant talk, I have Galleymate bolted to the back of the boat.
The pie ovens are great Andy. Nothing like a sausage roll for lunch on a winters day
Andy, $50 for a pie oven, small and neat and don't take up much space, 2 pies at a time or one night Mojoes missus made ribs, yummy. The Yammie is 2013 model, I couldn't find any mention of a secondary charging output.
Scott, you hit it on the head, I often forget to change over, also how many times can the start battery be started before it starts to drop in power, often we can do quite short drifts as some reefs/holes we fish are little bigger than a tennis court. A self deploying electric would be great in these situations but not an option for me unfortunately.
https://www.thehulltruth.com/sim-yam...ging-lead.html
The charge lead will be on your Yamaha. The above link shows an F250 but the F150 has the same lead.
TMC
ThanksTMC, I'll check it out tomorrow. So with the extra charging circuit do they both work independently and charge each battery separately. Now I was under the impression that the alternator (the manual calls it a generator) would slow down the charge rate once the battery approached full charge, so is there independent charging circuits.
Does this mean I don't need a VSR or DC/DC charger.
Ouch, just found the price for a cable, close to $190 delivered, I think a VSR is cheaper.
Hi Dignity
You can make your own with a fuse on it.
If you google "yamaha outboard charge lead" and "yamaha aux charge lead" you should find the info I found. There is a lot on The Hull Truth. I have a 4am start so going to hit the sack now, I'll be back on Tuesday and I'll dig up the info I found on fitting your own cable.
TMC
I had a look today and found the cable and I figure I can use the plug end to make a new cable connection and install a 50 amp fuse. Still some questions even trolling through the net. There is a spare relay spot in the motor fuse panel, is this needed to run the auxiliary charging unit. Do both charging cables work independently and slow down the charge rate once the batteries come up to charge although that may never happen on the house battery.
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