2 stroke end in sight

[Andy56]

No, banning them won't save the planet, but, it's just one tiny step in a huge walk, lots of things that were common have been banned, and most for the better, especially cancer causing materials, it's just part of the big wheel, it has to be nibbled at, bit by bit.

Thats what i said.
up the creek, see, your problem is you think you live on this planet alone.. What you do affects others directly or indirectly. Yes governments need to earn their keep. Like Abbotts " one big tax" ploy played out well over the last ten years. Seen your electricity bills lately. Thats what happens when you hear what you want to hear without reguard to facts. If we had moved to renewables ten years ago , the pressure to build in more power would have been avoided and prices wouldnt be as high. One mans immoral power grab decision has affected all of us.
I never said i was perfect and i never make bad decisions. Sure i drive a car, but i see a time when i wont because they will be driverless and electric powered by renewable energy. I actually look forward to this time. You wont see me rushing out to buy a V8 Nissan patrol before their gone, lol.
Dont confuse issues by saying your moralising on this therefore your a hipocrite for doing x. I have a car because thats how our society developed before we knew what we were doing. So in modern society we have moral choices and practical choices. Practical in that you need a car to get around, not many viable choices here. Moral choice in that if there is a better , cleaner alternative, its yours to make and many of us are moving that way.
i am sorry that this discussion has to take place, i would have thought everyone knew by now.

[NAGG]

That is exactly my thoughts, we shouldn't need to recycle because we shouldn't be getting the shit in the first place, milk in washable glass bottles, meat in paper and on and on.

As someone who works in the plastics industry ...... hell no to that
Quite simply - While ever we have an oil industry .... we should have a plastics industry as it is a by product .
secondly the amount of energy required to produce & process plastic is but a fraction of glass or steel ...... most plastic goods are processed at between 200-300 deg C.
Thirdly weight reduction - transport costs are significantly lower
.... & recycling is much easier / cheaper

Chris

[Noelm]

Might be the case, BUT, remember when you left glass bottles on the door step, and like magic, the next morning there was fresh milk in previously washed bottles? Remember you went to the Butcher and asked for (say) 5 chops, and he wrapped them in Butchers paper, you didn't have to buy a pack of 8 in a polystyrene tray, and your TV came packed in clean reusable material, not cubic metres of shit foam? I see exactly where you are coming from, but, if recycling necessity was minimised we would all benefit.

[Andy56]

As someone who works in the plastics industry ...... hell no to that
Quite simply - While ever we have an oil industry .... we should have a plastics industry as it is a by product .
secondly the amount of energy required to produce & process plastic is but a fraction of glass or steel ...... most plastic goods are processed at between 200-300 deg C.
Thirdly weight reduction - transport costs are significantly lower
.... & recycling is much easier / cheaper

Chris

Nagg your a bit off with the reality. Recycling is on deaths door step because its more xpensive to use recycled stuff than raw materials. Been reading the news? It wouldnt be an issue if we had no waste to recycle. Dont worry, i anit going to try to close the plastics industry, but i will pressure for it to become more responsible in its usage and force it into collection /recycling of its garbage. It may only cost a fraction of a cent for every container but it certainly costs a hell of a lot more to clean up afterwards. Dont you ever wonder why cleanup costs are never factored into production costs? I will tell you why, " its not my problem". Sounds familar, dont it.
hey, i like my plastics too, but we cant maintain the current modus operandi. The millions of tons that end up in the drink or waste dumps is our shame. But its not only the moral argument, its a cost issue, just check you rates next bill. Its an issue that affects us fishos too, fish need a clean environment to thrive. Polluting that environment will comeback to bight. Its in our interest to keep it clean, yet when it comes to making choices , we dont equate the two. Its like selective deafness, or getting hit by the brain dead stick, lol.
i aint saying its easy to do the right thing all the time. Even if you start to think this way for 10% of your choices, you can make a difference. Think about it next time. Yes, if a two stroke is a must have, i have no real issue, but if 10,000 people suddenly want a two stroke, huston we have a problem.
As i said to up the creek, we dont live in a small bubble of our own. We live in a big bubble and the shear amount of trash is starting to get noticable. Dont add to the pile if you can help it, is my take.

[Steeler]

We need a poll asking those in favor of the winding down of old tech 2 strokes how may of those own 4 strokes at present.

I just love environmentalists they are all for it til it comes at a cost too them then they and there thoughts seem to disappear pretty quickly. I wonder how many advocating change would embrace another federal Govt here in this country introducing another carbon tax or a Carbon Tax by stealth in the case of the coalition.

Anyways low hanging fruit etc etc etc let us not expect our worldly Govt's to deal with the real issues at hand.

[Andy56]

We need a poll asking those in favor of the winding down of old tech 2 strokes how may of those own 4 strokes at present.

I just love environmentalists they are all for it til it comes at a cost too them then they and there thoughts seem to disappear pretty quickly. I wonder how many advocating change would embrace another federal Govt here in this country introducing another carbon tax or a Carbon Tax by stealth in the case of the coalition.

Anyways low hanging fruit etc etc etc let us not expect our worldly Govt's to deal with the real issues at hand.

I dont get it. What part of the " carbon tax" dont you get? Because of abolishing the "carbon tax" our power bills went down? It was about industry restructuring and the incentives to develop renewable power, and lots of it, all coming on the back of the closure of coal power stations nearing their end of life. Man that REALLY played out well!!
And you honestly think Abbott ran that line because he cared about you? He would have gladly cut off his dick to get elected. Again , that turned out REALLY well. I suggest you stop winging about environmentalists and look at the facts instead. If you think its unconscionable to let people breath in mercury, sulfur and other heavy metals, you wouldnt build anymore coal power stations. If you are conscious about climate change and excess co2 in the atmosphere, you wouldnt build coal power stations. You can ignore the science and label it " greenies", but you aint doing yourself or your children any favours. A smooth transition was always going to be the LEAST COSTLY way out. Yep, we blew that up ok.

As for the poll, what are you expecting? I have a 2 stroke therefore i will vote against it? I had to laugh at the logic.

[Steeler]

Ignore the science that 2 strokes are ruining the world ????.

Show me that science, show it as legit science and not some industry influenced science i will gladly embrace it.

Not sure about your reference to Abbott. Some quick research on your behalf will find no one loathed the bloke more than me so NO i was not under the impression he ever gave a dam about me.

[Noelm]

I don't think you need a lot of science to see the oil slick surrounding an old carby 2 stroke! That said, we dunk our trailers in the water with grease dripping out of bearings, and gallons of spray "stuff" to prevent rust....

[Steeler]

No doubt Noel you see that and i would also be the first to admit you see 2 strokes starting with plumes of smoke either from a servicing issue or over zealous owner on the choke or even perhaps the way the motor has been stored for a while.

I wonder how many of these environmentally considerate types click the carbon offset box when booking there airline ticket ?. All in the name of doing the right thing of course !

[up the creek]

No, banning them won't save the planet, but, it's just one tiny step in a huge walk, lots of things that were common have been banned, and most for the better, especially cancer causing materials, it's just part of the big wheel, it has to be nibbled at, bit by bit.

yeah true noelm, and i am happy to do my little bit even if the many in the world wont do much, and honestly as a 2 stroke man, i am looking forward to a smooth, quiter, fuel effecient 4 stroke, i see it as a change not an end...the only thing thats annoys me a little bit is people telling taking a moral ground..

[up the creek]

andy mate i just want to say,, it sounds like your passionate, and im sure you got good intentions, and i respect your way of thinking, even if its not mine, as thats my point we dont all think the same all the time i do care also about our planet i like breathing fresh air etc. i just think with the amount of pollutants which by the way are increasing every day, banning a 2 stroke will lessen it a bit but not a dent compared to the world adding to the problem, and if anyone wants to champ the cause god speed to you all. i aint gonna stress mate, im not in a bubble i just know its out of my hands..

[Andy56]

yeah true noelm, and i am happy to do my little bit even if the many in the world wont do much, and honestly as a 2 stroke man, i am looking forward to a smooth, quiter, fuel effecient 4 stroke, i see it as a change not an end...the only thing thats annoys me a little bit is people telling taking a moral ground..

Mate, if you take it personal because i see it as a moral issue, your barking up the wrong tree. There are good practical reasons why its ALSO a good idea. Thats what I tried to highlight., lol. . My point is actions have consequences. One man's 2 stroke doesnt pollute significantly, but 10,000 will. Are you gonna be one of the 10,000? People have the choice. I am just pointing out that choices have consequences beyond yourself. Are you part of the solution or part of the problem , thats the $64m question. Thats not a moral argument but a mathematical argument hahahaha.

Mate I am just as passionate as the next guy, more or less. Buts its now moving beyond moral to financial and environmental arguments. It never was a simple argument, just sometimes you need a push to understand whats really going on.

PS, its never out of our hands. Never let people say your actions are insignificant. Working together is where we make the difference. If we look after our backyard, nobody is going to come and wreck the party. Defecate everywhere and we all get beat up. Its a numbers game.

[up the creek]

Mate, if you take it personal because i see it as a moral issue, your barking up the wrong tree. There are good practical reasons why its ALSO a good idea. Thats what I tried to highlight. If you take slight because you feel i put you on the spot, thats your moral dilemma there, lol. No one is going to think less of you for buying a two stroke. My point is actions have consequences. One man's 2 stroke doesnt pollute significantly, but 10,000 will. Are you gonna be one of the 10,000? You have the choice. I am just pointing out that choices have consequences beyond yourself. Are you part of the solution or part of the problem , thats the $64m question.
The only real advantage a 2 stroke has over a 4 stroke now is weight. Weight has been coming down on 4 stroke motors quite significantly over the last 10 years. So I recon it wont be long before there is no difference. Smokers will dissappear just by attrition anyway. If nobody is investing any money on R&D, no improvements while 4 strokes surpass. Same way as the horse and buggy I am afraid. Same as local cars, not enough sales/profit to warrant the continuation of the line.
Price, I cant say for sure, but if history is a judge, they will keep rising irrespective of the technology.

yeah all good andy bro, as said in my last post, i see your passionate and it means something to you and i respect that, but dont be fooled by my way of thinking that i dont care mate, but in life you just know when stressing about things aint worth it, and thats just how it is for me at this stage.

[Andy56]

the important question is, are you catching fish?

[Andy56]

Hey Steeler, hows your mate Roberts going? The whole 75vote man. "Show me the science" is pretty pointless cause you wont believe it anyway.
All things being equal, i would tick the right box. But things are not equal. Perfect takes some time, miracles take a bit longer, lol. There we are, i am not so gung ho either.
Hey , the ref to TA was to point out how sometimes we make decisions based on irrational behaviour rather than try to understand the facts. I am one so i have no effect is irrational thinking