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  1. #31

    Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    Quote Originally Posted by GBC View Post
    ...from west coast suspensions faq's

    Q. Does a GVM upgrade also increase the Gross Combined Mass (GCM)?

    A. ... Increasing the GVM does not increase the GCM...
    Like many blurbs on the net, this answer is sometimes misleading. Yes, if a GCM has been specified a GVM upgrade won't change the GCM (unless you find a Certifier happy to do both). But the 'whole answer' was obviously written by someone, or copied from someone else's blurb, who didn't understand the ADR's and relevant legislation.

    Whether a GVM upgrade helps you reach the total maximum tow capacity, and/or the vehicle GVM while towing depends ENTIRELY on what GCM has been specified by the 'manufacturer'. Some add GVM and ATM/max towing capacity (which means there is leeway for GVM upgrades), others specify a limiting GCM (i.e. Most current dual cabs), others in between.

    The transfer of towball mass to the towing vehicle in load calculations is the bit that confuses a lot.

    Best to think of the GCM as the 'sum of the combined axle loads' of the combination vehicle, ie boat hitched on to car.

    Assuming a 3.5t trailer with 10% towball mass, 350kg is borne by the towing vehicle when hitched up. Trailer total axle mass is 3150kg, towing vehicle's axles/GVM now accommodate the 350kg, hence this must be included in vehicle payload calcs/GVM calcs.

    Cheers

  2. #32

    Re: Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    I did a lot of research into this about 6 months or so ago.... A few things I can confirm from the information I gained, which I believe I verified as being accurate at the time.

    Toyota did not specify a GCM for 200 series Land Cruisers (as recently as about 3 months or so ago). Clearly now they do. I verified this at the time both from spending close to an hour with a Toyota dealer and their technical guys on the phone. They also placed a call to ARB at the time to verify if there were any restrictions on GCM (they agreed the Cruisers did not have one). Arb commented on the GVM upgrades, and its effect to tow capacities with regard to a Cruiser. They also reconfirmed (as we know) that where a GCM is specified, a GVM upgrade cannot increase the GCM. To their knowledge, their was no legal way to effect a GCM change.
    All advice received that day was consistent with all else that I had researched from many reputable sources. At that point Cruisers had no GCM set by the manufacturer. Thus they could be loaded to the GVM as well as be at max tow capacity. It would be interesting to ponder whether the specs for a Cruiser bought say 1 year ago, now magically has a GCM imposed on it that did not exist at the time of purchase??? I would be interested to know if, contrary to Toyotas literature, do Cruisers actually have a GCM stamped on their compliance plates?

    The down side to a "stock" cruiser was GVM. Put 350kg of tow ball load and you were left with (give or take) another 200kg of payload only in the vehicle. Not much at all.... Thus the GVM upgrades looked necessary to legally tow anything of capacity, due to the obvious 350kg of tow ball load immediately on the vehicle. ARB's exact words to me, "most cursers driving round with a bit of gear bolted to them and 4 good sized passengers are illegal every day of the week, forget about what they might want to tow on top of that..."

    This is not to say they are not a capable tow vehicle, they just obviously also have some issues hitting the numbers like all other vehicles when at the 3.5t tow limit.

    I agree with Gofishin's calc above but, while a GVM upgrade cannot increase GCM, it could help keep the GVM legal while the overall package is at the max for GCM.

    I believe the discoveries have no GCM from my last research, however like a Cruiser, they have a pretty dismal payload after you factor 350kg on the tow ball also, with not a lot of kg left for passengers or gear. Any claims that they blitz the opposition on paper to me is not correct, as they fail badly for GVM.
    At least the utes all have high overall GVM payloads, thus deal with the tow ball download on paper. But the GCM gets them back the other way and limits the entire package still.

    The Cruiser, being considered the king, now surprisingly is limited by a lowish stock GVM and also has the overall limiting factor of GCM to deal with, so their is now not much of a fix option for the low payload. (although the GCM is not as retractive as they are n the dual cabs).

    I also notice that Toyota still have no GCM listed for a 70 series, consistent with what I found a number of months ago. Based on that a 70 series ute actually has the best payload while towing at 3.5t, by a long wary compared to all others.
    A single cab 70 series has a payload of 885kg remaining, AFTER it also takes 350kg of tow ball download from your trailer. ie. 3.5t boat on back properly set up with nearly 900kg of other great in and on the vehicle.....
    Pity they are not what we want to be driving the other 98% of the time...

  3. #33

    Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    Thanks Darren J, good recent info.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren J View Post
    ...It would be interesting to ponder whether the specs for a Cruiser bought say 1 year ago, now magically has a GCM imposed on it that did not exist at the time of purchase???...
    No, any changes to specifications cannot be applied retrospectively to previous models, regardless of what spec and what make/model.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren J View Post
    ...I would be interested to know if, contrary to Toyotas literature, do Cruisers actually have a GCM stamped on their compliance plates?
    ...
    Yes me too Darren, hence my previous question
    Quote Originally Posted by gofishin View Post
    ...If someone has the new model 200 please confirm if the compliance plate or the Manual has this GCM on/in them.
    I wondered if this new spec was an 'Internet only spec' - some marketing persons overzealous attempt at 'complying' with the pack, and hence trying to stop the million questions that must be asked about the LC GCM... or a 'real' spec issued by the Toyota Ausralia's Technical Department, and hence part of the new model's 'compliance'?

    Cheers
    Brendon

  4. #34

    Re: Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    Excellent write up Darren. Thanks. Didn't consider the 70 series. Might have a look at them as well

  5. #35

    Re: Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    Quote Originally Posted by goona View Post
    Excellent write up Darren. Thanks. Didn't consider the 70 series. Might have a look at them as well
    Wow good GVM but way to rich for my blood. Back to the smaller dual cabs I guess

  6. #36

    Re: Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    Still weighed without a tray, a towar or aircon so not as good as they originally seem. Still better than most though.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    nil carborundum illegitimi

  7. #37

    Re: Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    Found this pretty comprehensive test on the net

    http://www.motoring.com.au/4WD-dual-...n-Towing-54511

    Now I really don't know which way t go!!!!

  8. #38

    Re: Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    Goona, are you looking at an auto or manual, or just the best tow truck/best numbers? Auto will be better for your steep driveway.
    Cheers
    Brendon

  9. #39

    Re: Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    Just had a look at the 130 defender dual cab.
    gvm 3500, tow 3500
    1.6t payload
    I know, and I agree about what they are and what their shortcomings are, but those are some pretty impressive numbers.
    They only talk 250 k.g. ball weight with a reduced gvm though so it will come back to the field a bit.
    nil carborundum illegitimi

  10. #40

    Re: Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    Quote Originally Posted by gofishin View Post
    Goona, are you looking at an auto or manual, or just the best tow truck/best numbers? Auto will be better for your steep driveway.
    Cheers
    Brendon
    I am easy Brendon, Probably Auto would be best with the steep driveway. Was originally going for the Colorado Auto seems to have most power and torque. Have just read the review from the top 8 4wd Dual cab utes on 4x4 Aust mag an now that has thrown me as they rated the Colorado 8th out of 8? I have driven one and didn't think it was to bad so I am interested in the others now. They must be awesome. I like the deal Holden has with 5 year warranty and there free servicing for 3 years but it looks like that may have changed now. Still something to talk about if I do go down that path

  11. #41

    Re: Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    Quote Originally Posted by GBC View Post
    Just had a look at the 130 defender dual cab.
    gvm 3500, tow 3500
    1.6t payload
    I know, and I agree about what they are and what their shortcomings are, but those are some pretty impressive numbers.
    They only talk 250 k.g. ball weight with a reduced gvm though so it will come back to the field a bit.
    They do look the goods but 95% f the time will be city driving not towing so I am looking for comfort as well. Must be getting old hey

  12. #42

    Re: Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    I totally understand that, and agree.
    nil carborundum illegitimi

  13. #43

    Re: Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    I wouldn't base my decision on a possibly biased review from people you don't know and might not be able to trust.

  14. #44

    Re: Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    I just looked at the BT50's yesterday as an alternative to a Ranger.
    The (ex Toyota) Salesman there advised the gearboxes on the BT50 is not the same as the Ranger. He also advised that the Rangers were notorious for having transmission issues, particularly if towing heavier loads (3t+) in hot conditions (30+). His advice only, not necessarily fact.
    A quick search on line seems to suggest this might be the case, but I find little in relation to the BT50. However nearly every review or test I have seen suggests the BT50 driveline is identical to Rangers??

    If any owners of either have any comments in relation to this, that would be appreciated.

    I also note a BT50 is about 140-150kg lighter than a ranger (depending on spec) which gives them a working payload when towing to capacity of about 382kg for top of the line model (GT) or 478kg for the lower spec XT model. Those numbers are getting more workable than a Ranger.
    Goona,
    If your seriously looking, I also note that Mazda has about 10% or so discount against all to the BT dual cab range (2015 plate) at present. Although I do not believe they have as much discount for ABMN holders vs the others if that effects you. They all seem keen to move them at the moment.

  15. #45

    Re: Looking at buying a new dual cab advise welcomed

    Which is great - if you can live with the silly grin

    Having just had a quick look at the numbers - the Ford / Mazda wins out - once it has had a GVM upgrade - for my money. Simply looking at the difference between kerb weights and the remainder of the GCM once the 3500 for the trailer is removed, the Ford Mazda has the highest payload available over the Collie and Dmax by a few hundred kilo. The downside with the Ford/Mazda is by running at maximum weight it is the only one to get pushed over its allowable GVM at full weight allowance once you add the towball weight but the upgrade will sort that. Couple this with equal highest torque figures in the class but a torque delivery that comes in at less RPM (bigger cubes) gives it the go on my account. Like I said though, if you can get a ride in one with a load on I would because "it tows it well mate" means different things to different people

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