the lucky country? .... "Just value what you have and don't give it away"

[Louis]

Take Switzerland for example.

Very low crime very high ownership of firearms.

Take Australia of yesteryear.

Very high ownership of firearms. Very low crime.


Crime Control. Not Gun Control.

If you Outlaw Guns only the Outlaws will Have Them.


I like those two sayings



Louis

[Louis]

With America you have a country with massive drug problems and massive crime problems as a result.

People should be aware that in the USA over half of those killed by firearms, (other than suicides and accidents), have actually been killed lawfully in self defense.

If they didn't have the firearm they would be dead themselves.

The crims will always have firearms so to level the playing field honest people need to have the right to firearms as well.

Laws that allow honest people the right to firearms and the right to defend themselves adequately actually make society safer for honest people.


Bullies bully those that they know they can beat or will back down to them. Same with criminals. Disarming the honest citizens and taking their rights to self defense away from them only encourages more criminality in society.

We need to empower the honest people again. And that means the right to own firearms and the right to adequate self defense.



Louis

[NAGG]

Take Switzerland for example.

Very low crime very high ownership of firearms.

Take Australia of yesteryear.

Very high ownership of firearms. Very low crime.


Crime Control. Not Gun Control.

If you Outlaw Guns only the Outlaws will Have Them.


I like those two sayings



Louis

Really ..... In Switzerland 72% of all homicides are with a firearm / Australia has 11.5%

Switzerland has a murder rate by firearm of 0.77% per 100,000 / Australia has 0.14% / 100,000 people

Switzerland has 3 times the guns per 100 people (45) / Australia has 15 / 100 people

so what does this show ..... Well 1) 3 times the guns 2) 5 times more gun related murders x 100,000 people & 3) 6 times more murders are committed with a gun.


Sorry Louis but that Kind of flys in the face of what you were saying .

Chris

[NAGG]

With America you have a country with massive drug problems and massive crime problems as a result.

People should be aware that in the USA over half of those killed by firearms, (other than suicides and accidents), have actually been killed lawfully in self defense.

If they didn't have the firearm they would be dead themselves.

The crims will always have firearms so to level the playing field honest people need to have the right to firearms as well.

Laws that allow honest people the right to firearms and the right to defend themselves adequately actually make society safer for honest people.


Bullies bully those that they know they can beat or will back down to them. Same with criminals. Disarming the honest citizens and taking their rights to self defense away from them only encourages more criminality in society.

We need to empower the honest people again. And that means the right to own firearms and the right to adequate self defense.



Louis

Louis - I appreciate you are trying to make a point ...... but hey stick with reality .
the list of mass murders with a firearm in the US is as long as my arm - 13 in which over 10 people were killed / 25 which saw 8 or more ...... these are not examples of self defence mate. .... they are shooting sprees -

If guns are at hand ...... people will use them (& I'm not talking some gang banger)

Chris

[Louis]

Really ..... In Switzerland 72% of all homicides are with a firearm / Australia has 11.5%

Switzerland has a murder rate by firearm of 0.77% per 100,000 / Australia has 0.14% / 100,000 people

Switzerland has 3 times the guns per 100 people (45) / Australia has 15 / 100 people

so what does this show ..... Well 1) 3 times the guns 2) 5 times more gun related murders x 100,000 people & 3) 6 times more murders are committed with a gun.


Sorry Louis but that Kind of flys in the face of what you were saying .

Chris

This is some weird logic Chris.

Ok let’s start with the first:

(1) “Really ..... In Switzerland 72% of all homicides are with a firearm / Australia has 11.5% “

Answer:

Of course Switzerland is going to have more homicides with a firearm. Firearms are readily available. Most houses have got them. Many are high powered assault rifles. Some houses have machine guns. Some have handguns. Some have all three. But the question is how many homicides occurred in Switzerland last year? England has extremely hard gun ownership laws. In England they often hunt with air-rifles because they aren’t able to get permission from their government to have normal firearms. Yet they have far more homicides and attempted homicides than Switzerland. And England isn’t even that bad when you compare it to many of the other countries in the World that have unbelievable homicide levels and yet very strict gun laws. It’s just they have other means to do so. They use knives etc.

I am reminded of the saying, “If someone comes at you with a knife and he is within 2 meters of you and you have a gun. He is the one with the more effective weapon”.


(2) “Switzerland has a murder rate by firearm of 0.77% per 100,000 / Australia has 0.14% / 100,000 people”

Answer:

Please refer to answer 1.


(3) “Switzerland has 3 times the guns per 100 people (45) / Australia has 15 / 100 people”

Answer: Spot on. They do. Maybe even more than that. And guns that are usually semi-automatic and machine guns. Again, read and construed with answer number 1.


This reminds me of a quote from ‘Yes Minister’. “All dogs have four legs. My cat has four legs. Therefore my cat is a dog”.


Louis

[Louis]

Louis - I appreciate you are trying to make a point ...... but hey stick with reality .
the list of mass murders with a firearm in the US is as long as my arm - 13 in which over 10 people were killed / 25 which saw 8 or more ...... these are not examples of self defence mate. .... they are shooting sprees -

If guns are at hand ...... people will use them (& I'm not talking some gang banger)

Chris

Chris, we are talking about a country with a population of over 300 million people. How many died in these style mass shootings? How many people were saved by their firearms? How many people were even not attacked in the first place because the perpetrators knew they may be packing? A woman about to be raped in a car park or elsewhere simply has to pull a small handgun from her purse and the scum who had intentions of raping her will back off.

There was one part of the USA that brought in laws that allowed homeowners the right to shoot anyone trying to break in. Break and enters went down by 97percent that year.

It is about freedom. A person should be able to walk anywhere in safety, night or day. A person should have the right to sleep at night in their home without the threat of someone breaking in and raping them etc. I have a couple of friends in the Police Service. It is not common but both men and women do get raped in their own homes sometimes by people who break in. You don’t hear about it on the news but it does happen. Also when someone does break in they usually aren’t alone and they have a crow bar that the used to pry open your front door. This is a formidable weapon.

Ask most women and they will tell you that they are frightened to be home alone of a night time. Sadly they should be. Men too. I haven’t looked up the statistics but I’m guessing that there are probably a couple of hundred or more break and enters every day in Queensland. I know I’ve been done over 3 times.

I know that I cannot walk through certain parks of a night time. Or it would be foolish to anyway. Yet if I had a handgun on my side and the right in law to use it in self defense I could.

It is crime control not gun control that is the issue. Again to Switzerland. Switzerland has a bit more crime than us per capita just like most European Countries. Yet they have far less crime than the USA. Remember the USA has at any time about 2.5 million people in jail. And Lord knows how many that have just got out. Why have they got so much crime. Mostly because they got such a drug problem.

However Switzerland has very few murders compared to the USA, by firearm or otherwise per capita, even though Switzerland’s gun ownership is almost on a par. The reason? They haven’t got the crime.

The criminals will always get guns. We need to make it harder for criminals to carry guns. To do this we need tough penalties for those who carry guns and are not licensed to do so. This is where the USA falls down. Criminals have guns and when they get caught for it they get a slap on the wrist. This needs to change. But let law abiding people have guns to protect themselves. Although I do agree that everyone who wishes to have a firearm should have to go to a Psychiatrist and be assessed first before being allowed to have a firearm.

I would like to point out one other thing. Have you noticed that when these nut jobs in the USA go on a shooting spree it is usually at a school or somewhere else where everyone is totally disarmed. Have you asked yourself why? It is because if they tried the same thing in downtown Texas they would get shot dead within seconds by armed decent members of society.

Guns keep countries free. Guns make society safe. Guns provide freedoms.


Louis

[Louis]

Actually to the Mods.


If other Ausfishers agree, maybe this thread should now be sent to the Bilge section?


Louis

[NAGG]

This is some weird logic Chris.

Ok let’s start with the first:

(1) “Really ..... In Switzerland 72% of all homicides are with a firearm / Australia has 11.5% “

Answer:

Of course Switzerland is going to have more homicides with a firearm. Firearms are readily available. Most houses have got them. Many are high powered assault rifles. Some houses have machine guns. Some have handguns. Some have all three. But the question is how many homicides occurred in Switzerland last year? England has extremely hard gun ownership laws. In England they often hunt with air-rifles because they aren’t able to get permission from their government to have normal firearms. Yet they have far more homicides and attempted homicides than Switzerland. And England isn’t even that bad when you compare it to many of the other countries in the World that have unbelievable homicide levels and yet very strict gun laws. It’s just they have other means to do so. They use knives etc.

I am reminded of the saying, “If someone comes at you with a knife and he is within 2 meters of you and you have a gun. He is the one with the more effective weapon”.


(2) “Switzerland has a murder rate by firearm of 0.77% per 100,000 / Australia has 0.14% / 100,000 people”

Answer:

Please refer to answer 1.


(3) “Switzerland has 3 times the guns per 100 people (45) / Australia has 15 / 100 people”

Answer: Spot on. They do. Maybe even more than that. And guns that are usually semi-automatic and machine guns. Again, read and construed with answer number 1.


This reminds me of a quote from ‘Yes Minister’. “All dogs have four legs. My cat has four legs. Therefore my cat is a dog”.


Louis

What's weird ? -

you were trying to say that say that a country like Switzerland (with a high rate of gun ownership) has a low rate of gun crime ....... well the statistics show that per 100,000 people their rate of gun crime is significantly higher
Then take a country like Japan where gun ownership is extremely low - & so are gun related murders (1.8%) take the guns out of the equation & people wont be shot.

[NAGG]

Chris, we are talking about a country with a population of over 300 million people. How many died in these style mass shootings? How many people were saved by their firearms? How many people were even not attacked in the first place because the perpetrators knew they may be packing? A woman about to be raped in a car park or elsewhere simply has to pull a small handgun from her purse and the scum who had intentions of raping her will back off.

There was one part of the USA that brought in laws that allowed homeowners the right to shoot anyone trying to break in. Break and enters went down by 97percent that year.

It is about freedom. A person should be able to walk anywhere in safety, night or day. A person should have the right to sleep at night in their home without the threat of someone breaking in and raping them etc. I have a couple of friends in the Police Service. It is not common but both men and women do get raped in their own homes sometimes by people who break in. You don’t hear about it on the news but it does happen. Also when someone does break in they usually aren’t alone and they have a crow bar that the used to pry open your front door. This is a formidable weapon.

Ask most women and they will tell you that they are frightened to be home alone of a night time. Sadly they should be. Men too. I haven’t looked up the statistics but I’m guessing that there are probably a couple of hundred or more break and enters every day in Queensland. I know I’ve been done over 3 times.

I know that I cannot walk through certain parks of a night time. Or it would be foolish to anyway. Yet if I had a handgun on my side and the right in law to use it in self defense I could.

It is crime control not gun control that is the issue. Again to Switzerland. Switzerland has a bit more crime than us per capita just like most European Countries. Yet they have far less crime than the USA. Remember the USA has at any time about 2.5 million people in jail. And Lord knows how many that have just got out. Why have they got so much crime. Mostly because they got such a drug problem.

However Switzerland has very few murders compared to the USA, by firearm or otherwise per capita, even though Switzerland’s gun ownership is almost on a par. The reason? They haven’t got the crime.

The criminals will always get guns. We need to make it harder for criminals to carry guns. To do this we need tough penalties for those who carry guns and are not licensed to do so. This is where the USA falls down. Criminals have guns and when they get caught for it they get a slap on the wrist. This needs to change. But let law abiding people have guns to protect themselves. Although I do agree that everyone who wishes to have a firearm should have to go to a Psychiatrist and be assessed first before being allowed to have a firearm.

I would like to point out one other thing. Have you noticed that when these nut jobs in the USA go on a shooting spree it is usually at a school or somewhere else where everyone is totally disarmed. Have you asked yourself why? It is because if they tried the same thing in downtown Texas they would get shot dead within seconds by armed decent members of society.

Guns keep countries free. Guns make society safe. Guns provide freedoms.


Louis

Sorry Louis

i cant agree that making it legal to carry guns / have easy access to guns is ever going to be a good thing

You talk about law abiding citizens having a fire arm to ward off crime - All that will happen is that the criminals will pack heat ..... so your break in or potential rape victim will probably be facing down the barrel of a gun. It's just like those that rob security guards do so with a gun ..... not a base ball bat.
we may not have the drug problem of the US -but we do have an alcohol problem ...... add a gun & we wont be just talking of glassings at a pub. We have laws stopping people from carrying knives in public - why would that be ? we dont allow drink driving - why would that be ?
yes these measures all impinge on peoples rights ..... unfortunately at times you have to .

As I said earlier - I quite like guns & used to do a bit of shooting in my early years ...... I would probably own some today if it wasn't so restrictive.... but it would never be under the guise of personal protection .

Chris

[Louis]

What's weird ? -

you were trying to say that say that a country like Switzerland (with a high rate of gun ownership) has a low rate of gun crime ....... well the statistics show that per 100,000 people their rate of gun crime is significantly higher
Then take a country like Japan where gun ownership is extremely low - & so are gun related murders (1.8%) take the guns out of the equation & people wont be shot.

"What's weird ? -

you were trying to say that say that a country like Switzerland (with a high rate of gun ownership) has a low rate of gun crime ....... well the statistics show that per 100,000 people their rate of gun crime is significantly higher
Then take a country like Japan where gun ownership is extremely low - & so are gun related murders (1.8%) take the guns out of the equation & people wont be shot.​"



There is usually about 80 to 90 homicides per year in Switzerland. Not many really. A bit over half are committed by firearms. Some of them are criminals killing each other. But that is not the point I’m trying to make. The point I’m trying to make is that it makes no difference whether someone kills someone with a gun or by other means. Murder is murder. People with the intent to kill another will do so. Every house in the world usually has a very large kitchen knife lying on the counter in their respective kitchens. This is actually a more effective weapon than a firearm in close proximity. Should we now start banning these.

After Howard brought in the gun laws, violence didn’t go down, armed hold-ups didn’t go down, murder didn’t go down, crime in general didn’t go down. People just used difference means. People started using knives, machetes, lumps of wood with nails hammered into them etc.

You said, “take the guns out of the equation & people wont be shot”. What is the difference between being shot and stabbed. Personally, as a general rule, I would rather be shot than stabbed.

Another point to note is this ridiculous view that ‘military style’ rifles and ammunition are so dangerous to people. They are not more dangerous than hunting rifles. In fact the opposite is the general rule. There are people alive today because they were shot by ‘military style’ rifles and ammunition rather than by a hunting rifle and ammunition.

Military style rifles are designed to hopefully wound. Armies wish to wound their enemy, not kill them as a general rule, because this takes so many other soldiers to take them off the battle field and care for them and nurse them back to health etc.

I would rather be shot with an M16 firing a tiny little .22calibre bullet with a ‘solid’ projectile than with a high powered hunting rifle which fires a much larger bullet at a lot faster speed and with a bullet designed to open up on impact and drop big animals dead instantly.

However this is the trend in the USA with the anti-gun lobby at the moment.


http://www.neontommy.com/news/2012/07/doing-math-guns



Louis

[Louis]

Sorry Louis

i cant agree that making it legal to carry guns / have easy access to guns is ever going to be a good thing

You talk about law abiding citizens having a fire arm to ward off crime - All that will happen is that the criminals will pack heat ..... so your break in or potential rape victim will probably be facing down the barrel of a gun. It's just like those that rob security guards do so with a gun ..... not a base ball bat.
we may not have the drug problem of the US -but we do have an alcohol problem ...... add a gun & we wont be just talking of glassings at a pub. We have laws stopping people from carrying knives in public - why would that be ? we dont allow drink driving - why would that be ?
yes these measures all impinge on peoples rights ..... unfortunately at times you have to .

As I said earlier - I quite like guns & used to do a bit of shooting in my early years ...... I would probably own some today if it wasn't so restrictive.... but it would never be under the guise of personal protection .

Chris

Thanks for you reply Chris,



"Sorry Louis

i cant agree that making it legal to carry guns / have easy access to guns is ever going to be a good thing

You talk about law abiding citizens having a fire arm to ward off crime - All that will happen is that the criminals will pack heat ..... so your break in or potential rape victim will probably be facing down the barrel of a gun. It's just like those that rob security guards do so with a gun ..... not a base ball bat.
we may not have the drug problem of the US -but we do have an alcohol problem ...... add a gun & we wont be just talking of glassings at a pub. We have laws stopping people from carrying knives in public - why would that be ? we dont allow drink driving - why would that be ?
yes these measures all impinge on peoples rights ..... unfortunately at times you have to .

As I said earlier - I quite like guns & used to do a bit of shooting in my early years ...... I would probably own some today if it wasn't so restrictive.... but it would never be under the guise of personal protection .

Chris"









“All that will happen is that the criminals will pack heat ..... so your break in or potential rape victim will probably be facing down the barrel of a gun.”


In places where people are given the right to defend their homes from breaking and entering by use of firearms and given adequate self defense laws break and enters drop[ overnight. Criminals are now playing on a level playing field and don’t like it. Remember that place in the USA I mentioned that had a 97% drop in break and enters after these style laws were brought in.

Also I have yet to hear of any man try and rape someone once he has been shot in the stomach.


“It's just like those that rob security guards do so with a gun ..... not a base ball bat.”



Yes that is true. But how many would be robbed if they didn’t carry firearms. They don’t get robbed often because criminals know they can fight back. Without the guns guys with knives would rob them every day.



“may not have the drug problem of the US -but we do have an alcohol problem”


Again, every kitchen in every home has a large kitchen knife sitting on the counter. Just as effective to kill someone as a firearm.


“have laws stopping people from carrying knives in public - why would that be ?”


This is just one of the thousands of foolish laws brought in by the former Wayne Goss government and which no government since has been smart enough to change.

This law has caused more problems than it solved. More people wound up getting stabbed because of this law and now us anglers have to be careful we don’t forget to leave our pocket knife in the tackle box instead of our pocket when we walk away from our fishing spot lest we wind up standing in front of a Magistrate on charges.

Up until this silly law was brought in anyone could carry a pocket knife providing they did so in a discreet fashion so as not to cause alarm. It gave people a sense of safety and freedom. It allowed them, if they were attacked to defend themselves and usually just pulling it out when in danger was enough for would be attackers to back off.

Now the scum of society still carry them and the honest people don’t and more stabbings have resulted.

Maybe a bit like the “That’s not a knife. Now this is a knife” segment from the movie Crocodile Dundee.


Louis

[Mike Delisser]

Up until this silly law was brought in anyone could carry a pocket knife providing they did so in a discreet fashion so as not to cause alarm. It gave people a sense of safety and freedom. It allowed them, if they were attacked to defend themselves and usually just pulling it out when in danger was enough for would be attackers to back off.

Louis

I can't agree with that bit Louis. I don't you think that it would be a good thing if everyone was carrying knifes and pulling them out if they thought they could be in danger?

I remember a big session at the Normanby once where there was a lot of argey-bargey, about 4 or 5 blues during the day. That could have been 4 or 5 knife fights. Just today my daughter told me there were 2 blues outside and 1 inside the Ferny Grove Tav just last night.

[Louis]

But Mike that is the thing.

Up until 1995 or so it was completely lawful to carry a knife on you providing you did so discreetly.

Why did stabbings go thru the roof once they made it unlawful.

Likewise people forget that years ago (circa 1900) it was lawful to carry a handgun on you.

There was less violence and crime then even with the poverty of the day then there is now.

However I do believe that drinking in pubs and night-clubs etc with weapons is a bad idea. Alcohol, public places and things that can be used as a weapon don’t mix.

These items should be taken from a person as they enter these establishments.

However it is of interest to note that years ago people did drink in these establishments with knives.

People did get stabbed from time to time.

But not as many as now as the type that will use them still take them into these places regardless of the laws.



Louis

[TheRealAndy]

Wow, still on the gun debate.

As I sit here on my deck beer in hand, overlooking Moreton bay I just confirm how much I love this place. TO be honest, I am spoilt. I live on Moreton Bay, just an hour by boat and I am on an almost unmolestered sand island, I can race my yacht in arguably one of the best bays for sailing in Australia, if not the world. This morning I went flying over Bribie Island and Pumice Stone Passage and tomorrow night I will probably going fishing in walking distance from my house. And you lads thing that because there is some strict gun laws this place is the pitts? Well I guess you cant please everyone I guess.

[NAGG]

"What's weird ? -

you were trying to say that say that a country like Switzerland (with a high rate of gun ownership) has a low rate of gun crime ....... well the statistics show that per 100,000 people their rate of gun crime is significantly higher
Then take a country like Japan where gun ownership is extremely low - & so are gun related murders (1.8%) take the guns out of the equation & people wont be shot.​"



There is usually about 80 to 90 homicides per year in Switzerland. Not many really. A bit over half are committed by firearms. Some of them are criminals killing each other. But that is not the point I’m trying to make. The point I’m trying to make is that it makes no difference whether someone kills someone with a gun or by other means. Murder is murder. People with the intent to kill another will do so. Every house in the world usually has a very large kitchen knife lying on the counter in their respective kitchens. This is actually a more effective weapon than a firearm in close proximity. Should we now start banning these.

After Howard brought in the gun laws, violence didn’t go down, armed hold-ups didn’t go down, murder didn’t go down, crime in general didn’t go down. People just used difference means. People started using knives, machetes, lumps of wood with nails hammered into them etc.

You said, “take the guns out of the equation & people wont be shot”. What is the difference between being shot and stabbed. Personally, as a general rule, I would rather be shot than stabbed.

Another point to note is this ridiculous view that ‘military style’ rifles and ammunition are so dangerous to people. They are not more dangerous than hunting rifles. In fact the opposite is the general rule. There are people alive today because they were shot by ‘military style’ rifles and ammunition rather than by a hunting rifle and ammunition.

Military style rifles are designed to hopefully wound. Armies wish to wound their enemy, not kill them as a general rule, because this takes so many other soldiers to take them off the battle field and care for them and nurse them back to health etc.

I would rather be shot with an M16 firing a tiny little .22calibre bullet with a ‘solid’ projectile than with a high powered hunting rifle which fires a much larger bullet at a lot faster speed and with a bullet designed to open up on impact and drop big animals dead instantly.

However this is the trend in the USA with the anti-gun lobby at the moment.


http://www.neontommy.com/news/2012/07/doing-math-guns



Louis

Agree - murder is murder

as for gun availability - miltary type etc ...... semi automatic (which can be converted) gives somebody the opportunity to unload a hell of a lot of rounds & reload in a few seconds with a 30 round magazine ..... who cares if it is 7.62 full metal jacket , 5.56mm or 9mm or even a .22 when it is at close range .

a nut job with a military assault rifle ..... not good

Chris