Two drown on their first outing.

[Jarrah Jack]

This is very sad and I was in two minds as to whether to post it at all and then wondered where best to put it. I think it should go in all sections to remind people to take every care and to pass it on to anyone who they may notice is new to boating in any form.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mor...-1226209822735

[nigelr]

Very tragic JJ. Wonder if they could swim? I believe PPB has some terrible currents.
So very sad for their families and friends.

[charleville]

Why would they drown if they were wearing life jackets?

Am I missing something obvious in the news item?



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[Jarrah Jack]

The conditions became horrific and its not difficult to imagine drowning in those conditions, especially at night and being inexperienced. Hypothermia would also be an issue that could lead to drowning.

I don't think there is anything more to it.

[charleville]

I still don't understand, JJ.

1. Is the water really that cold down there at this time of year that hypothermia is a risk. Please forgive me if this is a stupid question but as a Queenslander, I have no understanding of the water conditions in Victoria. I have been there many times at this time of year on business trips but never dipped my toes in the water.

2. I still cannot visualise how someone can drown with a life jacket on. Even in rough weather, my assumption is that the life jacket will still bring the person to the surface if they are barreled over in rough seas. If not, it hardly seems likely that the life jacket is truly a life jacket, unless it is of the still water variety that does not support the head and the person gets knocked out face down in the water.

[Fed]

The part I don't get is...

Officers believe the 36-year-old Windsor man and the 40-year-old Ardeer man were wearing life jackets - the only safety requirement necessary.

So they don't know if they were wearing jackets or not?

[fishfeeder]

I was thinking about this last night and I find it hard to see how you could drown with a life jacket on and a Kayak, if its still floating you could tie yourself to it and wait for help to find you. I guess it all comes down to inexperience, and lack of brain matter that gets people in these situations.

I feed sorry for there families as they will be dealing with there loss for years to come.

The ocean is a place to enjoy but to many don't respect it.

[Jarrah Jack]

The water temp was around the 16 degree mark. We've had some cooler weather lately so the wind chill would make it even less. If they were a long way out chasing snapper and the seas were 1.5 to 2 meters breaking steeply as they do in PPB, then its not a friendly place at all.

[Gigantor]

Charleville,

Even wearing PFD is no guarantee of surviving in rough seas. If you swallow a small amount of water you can get into trouble real quickly. Add hypothermia to that and the possible fact that they were wearing heavy clothes that got totally soaked and weighed them down. And if they weren't strong swimmers? Things can turn bad real quick. It's just a real sad situation.

The heavy clothing issue was a problem too with the chap that drowned in Wivenhoe while fishing in a canoe as well.

The moral to the story is that weather can change really quickly and everyone that enters the water needs to understand and accept this to be the possibility everytime we hit the water.

Pete

[charleville]

I was thinking about this last night and I find it hard to see how you could drown with a life jacket on and a Kayak, if its still floating you could tie yourself to it and wait for help to find you. I guess it all comes down to inexperience, and lack of brain matter that gets people in these situations.

I suspect that being beside a kayak in very rough water may be quite problematic and it might not take too much buffeting by a kayak that is being tossed around for a person to lose grip.


"lack of brain matter" may possibly be a tad uncharitable. All experience has to start somewhere. Certainly, in my earliest experiences of being on the water in rough conditions alone on a dark night, I found myself becoming very disoriented as well. ( Especially so if you need to wear spectacles and they get knocked off in the rough conditions. ) After a few bad rough experiences at night, some analytical reflections thereon, and some subsequent consultation with experienced mariners, I am far less likely to feel that I would be as unprepared when the next one comes along but who knows?

... and the possible fact that they were wearing heavy clothes that got totally soaked and weighed them down. And if they weren't strong swimmers? Things can turn bad real quick. It's just a real sad situation.

The heavy clothing issue was a problem too with the chap that drowned in Wivenhoe while fishing in a canoe as well.

Thanks Giantor.

I am guessing that the water soaked clothes will really only become a problem if one tries to swim. If one stays motionless and hopes for help to appear, then water penetration of the clothes should not make much of a difference because the water will be the same density as the water in which the person is floating.

ie the soaking of the clothes will not make a motionless immersed person any heavier except that the pockets of air in the clothes will have disappeared. Of course, so will the floatation that accompanies such pockets of air but hopefully the lifejacket will carry the person's weight anyway.

I also would have thought that water-soaked clothes might have the same effect as a wetsuit insofar as warming with body heat and helping to insulate against the ocean temperature.


We should try to learn from these incidents, I reckon. eg one thing that I learnt from a report of a couple of blokes who floated around for a few days in the NT after their boat sank was the need to include a cap in your safety grab bag as it was sunburnt heads that caused them a lot of pain from the incident.


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[fishfeeder]

Charleville, Granted I might have been a bit harsh with the "lack of brain matter" comment and I should have worded it a little less direct.
There are more people getting into Kayaking/boating and venturing further off the coast then 20years ago.
I just think more safety needs to be drummed into novice boaties and in this situation Kayaking before more come to grief unnecessarily. They made a novice mistake that sadly they wont get the chance to gain knowledge from but hopefully others will read about it and think twice before putting themselves and others in a similar situation.

Maybe personal Epirbs would have helped saved there lives. But not being there in the first place would have been even smarter, when you look at the forecast and conditions reported.

[charleville]

Charleville, Granted I might have been a bit harsh with the "lack of brain matter" comment and I should have worded it a little less direct.

Thanks, mate. I was not having a go at you. I was just reflecting on similar thoughts but as I said, experience has to start somewhere.

I came late into boating but have tried to do every thing possible by virtue of training and use of safety equipment to improve my chances in similar situations. I think that we are in agreement about the advisability of doing such earlier rather than later in one's experience curve.


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[Jarrah Jack]

The coroner will be looking at this and may well come out with some sort of recommendation concerning epirbs. Education can also be a key, a good idea but impossible to accomplish in practice.

[Just_chips]

Terrible news and most unfortunate of all is that situations like this can easily be avoided.

Sadly with the boom in people jumping into kayaks as some sort of 'cheap' fishing platform is the fact that these newcomers are going to be fishermen who have bought a kayak because they can't afford a boat and not kayakers who have gotten into fishing.



Some things for novices to think about before using your kayak.

• Can you swim? Not just swim in a pool, swim in rough conditions wearing a pfd fully clothed, probably with paddle in hand.
• Can you overturn and remount your kayak in deep water? If you have not done this and own a yak then get your arse down to the closest peice of water now and practice!
• Can you communicate with somebody in case of emergency? A mobile phone is great but they don't work underwater, put it in a waterproof case and carefully consider getting yourself a handheld waterproof vhf radio, particularly if you plan to head offshore. And remember if more than 2 nautical miles offshore an epirb is mandatory.
• Always wear a pfd and carry a few things on your person such as a whistle, a signal mirror, a compass and even strap on a knife.
• Always take some drinking water and some basic food like energy or muesli bars.
• Check the forecasts and don't be afraid to step back and say these conditions are too much for me, no matter how much your mates want to go fishing. Also consider tides and currents, remember paddling with the wind is much easier than paddling against it, often twice as hard, so try and plan your trip to come home with any forecast breeze at your back.
• Remember that paddling out to your fishing spot is always easy as you are fresh and full of expectation, paddling home empty handed sucks and is just bloody hard work. Slowly work your way up to paddling greater distances so that you build your 'paddle fitness' before making that big trip offshore.
• If you use an electric motor (as the photos in regards to this tragedy suggest these guys did) please remember that an electric and associated batteries add substantial weight to your kayak, altering it's handling and performance. I also believe they give users a false sense of security and they motor much further than they have the ability to paddle.
• Contact a kayaking or canoe club and arrange to attend an on-water safety course specifically for paddle craft.

Sadly the chances are that if people are taking kayaking as a shortcut to get them fish then they will take other shortcuts as well. I'm certain we will see future fatalities similar to events like this but they are preventable.

Kev

[PinHead]

well said Kev..especially the re entry into/onto your kayak..not as simple as it may seem.