Without going crazy...

[PADDLES]

good work with the P76 angle pinhead, that was one ugly vehicle, i didn't know it had won an award for being good, i thought all it's awards were for being a lemon.

[oldboot]

BRP are realy left with no option but to persue the DI two stroke line, beacuse utherwise they would have to start again.
A process they neither have the funds nor engineering capacity to do, or buy engines or designs from a larger better equiped competitor which would substantially reduce their profitability.

now with two stroke regardless of how the oil gets into the crank case, the fundamental limiting factor is that it, has to get to the bores, and that means the oil has to be in the air at some point, and thus it will be burned.

There is simply no way arround two strokes consuming oil and burning it.....unless someone comes up with some sort of high temperature, self lubricating way of sealing a piston other than metal piston rings running in a metal bore lubricted by oil.

And here lies the problem, as you strave the amount of oil, to reduce the emissions the lubrication of the bore suffers....mostly two strokes have either roller or ball bearing bottom ends both of which need very little oil to work incomparison to slipper bearings so the bearings are not the problem....if there was a better way to seal the piston, the beraings could be sealed or lubricated independently.

My understanding is that the most common major engine failures in DI two strokes of all types and uses are bore related.

because there is no oil flow or pool of oil and no means of filtering or removing products of wear from the engine, the bores don't get washed clean of any abraded material and as such as soon as there is any pick up of metal from the bores by the rings, the whole thing goes bad very quickly......this is just a fact of two stroke period, but as soon as you starve lubricant the whole issue escilates.

I can certainly see why we are seeing 4 stroke moving into lots of traditionally 2 stroke applications.

as for me I will be sticking with my old tech two stroke running a more modern oil...maybe I will buy a 4 stroke one day, buy I doubt very much that I will every buy a DI two stroke of any brand.

cheers

[Noelm]

good work with the P76 angle pinhead, that was one ugly vehicle, i didn't know it had won an award for being good, i thought all it's awards were for being a lemon.

just to de-rail this whole thing for a bit, a guy up the road from me was/is a P76 addict, he had (untill he crashed it) a P76 ute, never seen one before or since. Number plates were... wait for it.... P76-UTE

[Noelm]

back to topic, I don't think there would be too many motors of any sort around that would run too flash when starved of lubrication, anything spinning fast and hot, and in contact with something else needs to be lubricated, whether it be a 2 stroke outboard or P76 alloy V8, I kind of doubt we will see F1 styled pistons and space age ceramics in an outboard motor (yet) and to a point, almost all new motors are running on the edge, there is just such a fine line between a few extra HP being screwed out of a certain motor, and longevity, thankfully for us, longevity comes first (usually)

[PADDLES]

can't say i've seen a p76 ute noel. i thought land rover lovers were a rare breed of cat, a p76 lover is even rarer again.

[Noelm]

yeah, I would reckon the P76 owners club meetings would be a pretty lonely affair! and the website would not get too many hits, f any p76 owner have a computer that is, most would still use stamps and envelopes, and those funny rods they had a school to teach you maths

[NAGG]

just to de-rail this whole thing for a bit, a guy up the road from me was/is a P76 addict, he had (untill he crashed it) a P76 ute, never seen one before or since. Number plates were... wait for it.... P76-UTE

I think that P76 ute was a chop shop job - maybe one of the few wagons that were made!
I did see a hatch back somewhere in the dim dark past too

I think there are several P76 car clubs ........ members would all be beigists

Chris

[Noelm]

off topic, but here you go, mind you, it may have Attachment 69938been a home made thing

[Jabba_]

BRP are really left with no option but to pursue the DI two stroke line, because otherwise they would have to start again.
A process they neither have the funds nor engineering capacity to do, or buy engines or designs from a larger better equipped competitor which would substantially reduce their profitability.

now with two stroke regardless of how the oil gets into the crank case, the fundamental limiting factor is that it, has to get to the bores, and that means the oil has to be in the air at some point, and thus it will be burned.

There is simply no way around two strokes consuming oil and burning it.....unless someone comes up with some sort of high temperature, self lubricating way of sealing a piston other than metal piston rings running in a metal bore lubricated by oil.

And here lies the problem, as you starve the amount of oil, to reduce the emissions the lubrication of the bore suffers....mostly two strokes have either roller or ball bearing bottom ends both of which need very little oil to work in comparison to slipper bearings so the bearings are not the problem....if there was a better way to seal the piston, the bearings could be sealed or lubricated independently.

My understanding is that the most common major engine failures in DI two strokes of all types and uses are bore related.

because there is no oil flow or pool of oil and no means of filtering or removing products of wear from the engine, the bores don't get washed clean of any abraded material and as such as soon as there is any pick up of metal from the bores by the rings, the whole thing goes bad very quickly......this is just a fact of two stroke period, but as soon as you starve lubricant the whole issue escalation.

I can certainly see why we are seeing 4 stroke moving into lots of traditionally 2 stroke applications.

as for me I will be sticking with my old tech two stroke running a more modern oil...maybe I will buy a 4 stroke one day, buy I doubt very much that I will every buy a DI two stroke of any brand.

cheers

The E-tec injects oil onto/into the bore. In fact the E-tec injects oil onto/into all friction areas, bearing included...
How is burning 100% off the oil that goes into the E-tec any different or worst then disposing sump oil..

You do realize that the Evinrude got its Clean Air award and 3 start rating by burning oil.. So IMO the oil it burns cant be that bad, considering the Yamaha, Suzuki and Mercury 4st don't even come close to the low levels off CO2 that the Evinrude produces.. The only motor on the market that matches the E-tec is the Honda and now that motor has a lean burn capability.. Oh shit now the Honda is running on the razors edge off destruction too.

Old boot, you need to read more internet forums to broaden your knowledge about the Evinrude.. You understanding of the E-tec is best described as vague..

[PinHead]

the V8 P76 was a weapon..went like all hell..you just had to make sure the body panels stayed on while you gave it a flogging.

[FishHunter]

BRP are realy left with no option but to persue the DI two stroke line, beacuse utherwise they would have to start again.
A process they neither have the funds nor engineering capacity to do, or buy engines or designs from a larger better equiped competitor which would substantially reduce their profitability.

now with two stroke regardless of how the oil gets into the crank case, the fundamental limiting factor is that it, has to get to the bores, and that means the oil has to be in the air at some point, and thus it will be burned.

There is simply no way arround two strokes consuming oil and burning it.....unless someone comes up with some sort of high temperature, self lubricating way of sealing a piston other than metal piston rings running in a metal bore lubricted by oil.

And here lies the problem, as you strave the amount of oil, to reduce the emissions the lubrication of the bore suffers....mostly two strokes have either roller or ball bearing bottom ends both of which need very little oil to work incomparison to slipper bearings so the bearings are not the problem....if there was a better way to seal the piston, the beraings could be sealed or lubricated independently.

My understanding is that the most common major engine failures in DI two strokes of all types and uses are bore related.

because there is no oil flow or pool of oil and no means of filtering or removing products of wear from the engine, the bores don't get washed clean of any abraded material and as such as soon as there is any pick up of metal from the bores by the rings, the whole thing goes bad very quickly......this is just a fact of two stroke period, but as soon as you starve lubricant the whole issue escilates.

I can certainly see why we are seeing 4 stroke moving into lots of traditionally 2 stroke applications.

as for me I will be sticking with my old tech two stroke running a more modern oil...maybe I will buy a 4 stroke one day, buy I doubt very much that I will every buy a DI two stroke of any brand.

cheers

Once again you have the bull by the udders, Most aluminium engines since the 80's use a coated aluminium bore and the piston and rings actually run on exposed silicone particles which is what allows them to run the very lean oil mixtures without seizing.

I recall Mazda having huge issues with apex seals and horrendous fuel consumption on rotary engines in the 70's strangely enough they were the only ones punting the Wankel engine for the last 40 years. Using your argument it was a failure and they were on a hiding to nothing by continuing to punt it. Strangely the latest version in the RX8 won the best new engine award in 2003

Do you remember that your much vaunted Japanese manufacturers were a joke in the 50's and 60's and were renowned for having a crappy product?

[PinHead]

LOL FH..yep..you could always tell when a Toyota Crown was in front of you..just follow the smoke screen.
How about the Honda Zot?
Now there is some Japanese excellence for you.

Technology moves on and everyone seems to bag new technology..wait until the bugs are ironed out and everyone wants one.

All the Jap bike manufacturers initial projects were heaps of junk..none could compete with the likes of Triumph, Velocette, Adler, BMW, Indian and Harleys etc etc

[NAGG]

Without going crazy can someone tell me simply why there is so much negative stuff about E-tecs. There seems to be hundreds of them about, in facy most of the 5-6m tin boats that I have been looking at have them. Personally would prefer a Yam 4 stroke but...

Hi WB

So ...... you would prefer a Yam 4 stroke but ? ........ why the but ?

Chris

[BM]

Whitebeach may be from NSW Nagg? In my experience "but" on the end of a sentence (with no actual continuing meaning) is a NSW thing just like "ay" on the end of a sentence is a Qld thing. Not sure what us Vic people have as a nuance?? I don't think we do have one but I'm sure someone from another state will be very quick to inform me if we do!!

cheers

[BM]

Its probably worth Oldboot noting that Honda only a few short years ago was having to deal with some quite troublesome cylinder head corrosion issues on its 4 cylinder 130's I think it was? Was quite a drama at the time. (No doubt Garry will be along shortly!! lol). Yamaha also had some real problems if I recall correctly with their high HP HPDI engines. Merc with their Poptimax's and so on and so forth and of course Suzuki, well, they don't even want to be here!! lol

Bottom line is that they are ALL good and they ALL have there own little problems here and there. No sense bagging out a particular brand. I reckon they are all very good these days.

My only real hesitation would be in buying a Suzuki since they don't want to be self represented here.