It wasnt at the boat ramp it was it was out on the water, and he wasn't pull starting it so he must have rememberred to charge his battery.Originally Posted by marto78
The question was why is there so much negative stuff said about etec's and i guess this is one of the reasons why. Im not having a shot at the engines, I've never owned one so i dunno what there like. But i was just giving the guy and answer to his question.
well said chimo and if i could get the range with a 2 stroke carby i would go that way mainly because of fuel quality and worrying about damage to fuel injectors with di 2 strokes and 4 strokes having said that i have been very happy with 150 etec with 150 hrs on the clock has not missed a beat.
560c Bar Crusher "Overtime"
See you have a Bar Crusher. This is one of my choices. What are they like in 'heavy' conditions, e.g. off Tasman Island with a 50 kilo tuna on the line and a 3 meter smell and wind wind wind?!
If ya want to find out why, ya just have to google "Etec problems" or similar..plenty of hits..google any other brand for comparison.
I think it comes down to a combination of things.
1. there is heaps of high profile advertising and product placement ( paying personalities to use them) saying how wonderfull and marvelous they are with condecentive and exagerated put downs of opposing technologies.
That video with an old tec two stroke in a huge cloud of smoke was so obvioulsy a set up.
And the various claims of technical and economic superiority, that even if valid are nowhere near as strong as they are sold.......merc found many of these claims easy targets
2. the various early quality controll issues injectors, splitting cowels, ECUs failing for no good reason, blown up motors and so on .
3. the poor handling of many resulting warranty claims, ECU failures being blamed on loose battery terminals, injector failures being blamed on bad fuel..and the whole string of attitude, service and responsibility issues and the complete denial of there being any problem at all.
4. Don't forget the very expensive, brand specific oil you must use in the product.
Typical american hard sell followed by poor service.
That I think sumarises it.
The bottom line is that evenrude/bombadeer have put all their eggs in one basket and have become a one product manufacturer.....unfortunately that simply do not have the manufacturing volume or the breadth of engineering support that the japs have.
Honda, suzuki and yamaha all build many many thousands of different engines in cars, bikes, generators and so on and have the ability to engineer, develop and support every part of an engine to a high standard.
Evenrude is a small time, back blocks engine developer by comparison, they have gone from manufacturing a range of simple, crude and durable two stroke motors that were functionaly similar to every other two stroke of the time and barely changed for many decades to producing the etec and the fitch before it ( which they more or less re-branded as the etec), both employing an injector technology that no one else supports and is reported to be fundamentally flawed.
Seems they simply have not the ability or will to address the detail at every step of the process that is required to make a quality product with a universal customer approval.
Of course even the most dodgy product will have customers that have no problems and stay loyal.....hell there are people still buying holdens and fords......... but it is the sheer volume of complaints and reports that you cant ignore.
What realy upsets some people is that the old tec two stroke Evenrude product was and is so reliable and easy to own by comparison.
This is the way I see it in summary.
Well someone asked.
cheers
The above represent a summary of the argument against the Etec product as the author understands it and not necessarily a summary of facts or any person's specific opinion.
But it don't look good.
Its the details, those little details, that make the difference.
Hi oldboot
I'm still sticking with my old Evinrudes not buying new E-tecs (or anything else for that matter) but your assessment of BRP is not really very accurate
"The bottom line is that evenrude/bombadeer have put all their eggs in one basket and have become a one product manufacturer.....unfortunately that simply do not have the manufacturing volume or the breadth of engineering support that the japs have."
Have a look here for a little more info.
http://corp.brp.com/sites/default/fi...p_dec_2010.pdf
C
C
What could go wrong.......................
An opinion was asked ...... so I gave mine .
Now - my opinion has come from knowing personally friends or aquaintences that have had issues ......... so no BS & no a friend or a friend stuff.
I also know what I saw at a Sydney ETEC dealer who happened to be a Quintrex dealer when I was on the look out for my new boat package .......... now I can tell you - 5 years ago I nearly fell for the hype........ because as I said , on paper the ETECs look awesome.
The reality is a lot of ETECs have been fitted over the past years - but probably no more than 4stk yammis ........ , followed by Hondas or Suzuki 's yet you just dont hear of the issues on the same level .
Yes there are probably a lot of happy ETEC owners out there ....... along with suffering ones.
BRP spent a hell of a lot of money to entice celebrities to switch over to ETECs ...... ever wondered why .... ? If the product was that good they would not need to go to that length.
Chris
Give a man a fish & he will eat for a day !
Teach him how to fish
& he will sit in a boat - & drink beer all day!
TEAM MOJIKO
Still very happy with my 175 Etec. It was one of the first that arrived in 2006 and it hasn't missed a beat. In fact, it probably fires before the flywheel spins 360 degrees!
Evinrude came on a bit strong in the early days and many people took offense (fair enough). This explains a fair bit of the anti-Etec sentiment. Aussies hate yank bullshit.
They are light and fast. Fuel economy is good enough for me to be impressed, compared with my old 2stroke.
I'd love to know how many blown powerheads have occurred on engines running continuously at WOT?? If anything, I reckon BRP has made a mistake pitching at the fizz-boat brigade. It can't be good for any motor running at full noise all the time.
As far as BRP are concerned they make one and only 1 range of outboard motors, Etec.
all other major manufacturers make outboards with a range of technologies.
Sure BRP have several other products but they are all seperate and discrete niech products that have been braught together from differing origins.
All their products represent a pretty narrow style of motor engineering incomparison to the japanese manufacturers ability
.
If BRP make one, the 3 major japanese brands probaly do or have in the past made a competing product and then other products reprersenting a massivly wider range of engineering.
Honda have been making small engines since shortly after the war and have gone on to build every type of piston engine except ( to my knoweledge heavy diesels and aviation) including world title winning formular1 engines.
Yamaha, have been making small engines for a very long time and have made world title winning motorcycle engines and have high order engineering capaicty that extends into electronics, semiconductor manufacturing and musical instruments.
Yamaha from time to time contract to design and develop engines and components for other major manufacturers
Suzuki likewise are long term developers and manufacturers of a wide range of engines, ranging from small engines to medium sized car engines, they too are competitive in highest order motorsport.
All three of the above have worldwide volume markets, have extensive credibility in developing and manufacturing reliable, high quality, efficient, fuel injected engines with very reliable electronic engine management.
All 3 have a reputation for high reliability in all markets they enter, all 3 develop all their product from within.
All 3 while they supply and recomend their own branded lubricants engineer their products arround industry standard lubricants and consumables.
All three are top level international engineering powerhouses, in comparison BRP remains small time and small scale.
Just a few figures
from the document linked
BRP revenues of $2 billion Canadian employs 6000
Honda revenues of $105 billion Canadian employs 176 815.
Suzuki revenues of $32 billion Canadian employs 14 532
Yamaha revenues $4.6 billion Canadian employs 19 462 ( excluding arround 7000 tempoary staff)
cheers
Its the details, those little details, that make the difference.
Thanks. I think that is very well put. It's interesting how the marketing of the E-tec has sucked in so many small boat dealers who have put them on boats such as Stabi and Bar Crushers.
Using that argument then Porche, Lamborgini, Ferrari etc etc are total crap.
BOAT really does mean Bring out Another Thousand
I was thinking the same..Lamborghini do build tractors..they started building them..so I guess their cars must be rubbish because they don't have their toes in every pool.
only about 25 people are used to assemble a Lambo so I guess they are just backyarders.
You can google anything you want and will find plenty of info on it..good or otherwise.
Based on past ownership, I had problems with both Suzuki and Yamaha motors so are they crap ?also...never had an ETEC and would only listen to owners' experiences with them.
I don't think its a case of "all their eggs in one basket". BRP made a choice. The future for outboards is either direct injected 2 strokes or injected 4 strokes and that will be the only choice in mainstream brands. Also, they will probably still have a couple of carby models used as commercial motors in developing countries along with multi-fuel models to run on kerosene etc
If BRP offered both technoloy options in my opinion it would probably give them better reach across the market but presumably their decision is based on some sound economic calculations.
I think that because BRP dared to come out bold and brash that it's the whole tall poppy syndrome thing. Also too, the fact that they lined their engines up against other brands would have put noses out of joint. I have always loved the marketting DVD's and one should remember that they are after all advertising their product and why can't they advertise it as the next great thing?? Same as any other manufacturer can. After all, it's only advertising....
What we need is a return to more "fair dinkum" testing articles and not just about boats. I recall the days of the ADB mag with shootouts for the top branded dirt bikes all put head to head to see who came up trumps. These days reviews seem merely more than a subtle advertising campaign, highlighting the good and glossing over the bad. What a joke.
It's the same often with boat review articles you read these days. I reviewed a boat several years ago and posted elsewhere an honest opinion highlighting both good and bad points. Overall, the boat got the thumbs up. I got late night abusive phone calls and all manner of drama, apparently not sanctioned by the business owner but I could not independently verify that.
With regard to failures, theres plenty of 4 stroke failures and other 2 stroke failures. Merc's Optimax used to be called "POPtimax" in the early days due to a number of them destroying pistons. Every new creation has issues in the early stages. Look at each new model of car that comes out. Almost always teething problems.
BRP simply polarised the market with their advertising and created a love/hate reaction to the brand. Many people love to hear about an Etec that has a failure, it would seem moreso than with the other brands. By the way, FICHT wasn't a BRP technology, it was OMC's baby in its final days. BRP redeveloped/fixed the FICHT technology and then called it Etec.
cheers
BRP are definitely putting all their eggs in one basket and they may yet turn out to be golden. it'll be tough for them after the FICHT pr disaster.
i like the engineering, they own it all and have patented it all. when (and not "if") this technology is seen by the market to be reliable, it will simply take over the market until someone comes up with something better. an electromagnetic piston to squirt the mix into the cylinder is simply genius, it removes all of the other moving parts associated with their competitor's injection system. the only weak link is the mechanics of the injector piston.
i think their marketing has let them down, they are making some wild claims with their unproven product against other well proven products and it gives people the schits, 300 hour service intervals for example, what a load of krap, what recreational user (ie. low hours per year) would run a motor for 300 hours without changing out an impeller or the gear oil or at least checking them.
My waterpumps could well go for 20 times that amount without replacement, simply becuase I never have to go anywhere near any sand or mud, EVER, my old 70 Johnsons I had on an aluminium cat where just on 8 years old and had god knows how many hours, and still had the original water pumps in them, foolish? maybe even stupid, but without abrasive sand, they should and do last for ages and ages, lack of use will be a killer too, leaving them stand for months on end can cause them to stick in the housing, and first turn of the key is doom for the impeller! so, from that, I ould reckon a new motor could well go 300 hours without a spanner being laid on it, whether the owners does this or not is their choice, not mine or anyone elses.
It amazes me how people fail to follow a line of reasoning when they don't wish to.
Porche is a high performance subsiduary of one of the largest longest standing automotive engineering power houses in the world, they have a reputation for quality and reliability, the parent company makes a wide variety of engines and vehicles including the fastest and most powerfull road registerable car in the world the Bugati Varon.....the VW company has always been world leader and developer of new and inovative engine technologies.......hardly comparable with a snowmobile manufacturer that baught the assets of an troubled company that made crude outboards with technology that hardly changed in 40 years.
Both Lamborgini and Ferari have always been car manufacturers and have generaly sourced their engine technology from others such as Fiat
Lambo have in the past made some truly horrible cars and have had their share of financial trouble.
Ferari have always concentrated on great looking cars, but if you think any of them are low maintenance, think again.
without exception all the supercars brands are unaffordable, impractical, completly pointless and have a very high cost of maintenance.
Besides none of them manufacture outboards.
Sorry the logic does not follow
I would not be buying a Porche, a Lambo or a Ferari, even if I had the money, in that way thay are similar to the Etec.
As far as BRP putting all their eggs in one basket.....read the link posted..they are extending their "Etec" technolgy into their snowmobiles too.
so if they have it in their outboards, jetskis and their snowmobiles they will no doubt stick it in their quads as well and they will be truly a one trick pony.
Any wonder they continue to insist that there is no problem with their one and only technology.
The bottom line is that both honda and suzuki have the engineering capaicty to develop a variety of engine technologies, such as variable valve timing 4 strokes ( the single biggest advance in 4 stroke technology in decades), and of course direct injection two strokes, and a huge volume and variety of products to use and prove them in.
AND BTW the japanese brand DI two strokes use relativly low cost industry standard lubricants that can be baught from a variety of manufacturers.
The Etec technology is attractive only because it is cheap and represents a low order enginering task and high profits...the motor its self still has changed very little from the crude evenrude, johnson, chrisler outboards of the past, they have just screwed injectors into it and told you you have to use an expensive oil you can only buy from them.
bulding a light weight, dry sump, variable valve timed marine engine, that requires some serious resources, this direct injected two stroke thing is only one step past lawn mower technology.
.................
cheers
Its the details, those little details, that make the difference.
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