Why you don't want a carbon tax as a recreational fisher

[PADDLES]

it's a bit sad isn't it ................... it'll lead to the destruction of manufacturing and processing in australia and cost the jobs of the very people that the ALP were supposed to be representing in the first place ..................... blue collar workers

she's coming out now and trying to garner some support by claiming that her conservative opposition is only favouring white collar families and that they will only support the rich, yet her policies are just going to kill off industry and the only survivors will be the rich.

[Kevin Ferguson]

[QUOTE=PADDLES;1352229]reading in the paper this morning it appears as if alcoa are talking of shutting down their point henry operation and even the australian manager of rusal is talking about slowing down their operations here as well as a result of the high carbon price in this country. he did go on to say that china would take up the slack in worldwide demand (if aussie operations fold) in an instant. so in one fell swoop ms gillard and her world climate changing??? carbon tax could make the aluminium processing industry in australia extinct rendering tens of thousands of people jobless and the processing would then go offshore to a country with a very low carbon price, yet still with high carbon emmissions.

What complete bullshit!! Although legislation has been passed on a carbon tax this does not come into effect until July this year. It has also been clearly stated by Alan Cransberg ( Alcoa of Aust M.D. ) that the review of operations at Point Henry is due to high input costs ( alumina & bauxite ) , the high A$ , a 20% drop in world price for Aluminium , a glut on the market combined with a lessening demand , also stated that the upcoming carbon tax had no role in the review. Plant is 49 years old and despite 20% productivity gains over the last 4 years the company says the current global economic conditions meant it was not profitable in the "forseeable future".
Alcoa also have a plant at Portland which has been modernised & employs a similar amount of people & is not subject to review.

BHP Billiton recently indicated that it would probably not invest in the aluminium sector due to "structural pressures" , whilst Rio Tinto is still choking on it's US$40 billion acquisition of Alcan in 2007 ( and will be for a considerable time ).

As to production going to China this is a given with the Chinese government artifically holding the Yuan @ 30 % or more below it's true value. Knock 30% of the A$ bringing it back to around 70c and all manufacturers / exporters and the tourist industry would be happy. Free trade - level playing field ?? Yeah right.

Cheers Kevin

[PADDLES]

you've made a fair call kevin, i've taken a very simplistic view and there's plenty of other factors in play and for sure there's all sorts of reasons for any business to shut up shop and maybe too it's as simple as just an easy opportunity presented by the introduction of a new tax for older plants and technology to be mothballed. but at the end of the day it's still something else affecting the bottom line of someone's operation to a point where they pull the pin and the end result is that plants shut down and people end up out of work and communities get affected all in an economic climate where there's not much money available for modernisation. even though this new tax doesn't come into play until next financial year i would have thought that any business would be looking to minimise exposure to it well in advance.

[lampuki]

LOL....these comments are classic.

Yes, we are in a very tough market.....it is not just the aluminum industry that is hurting. Every cent increase in th au$ wipes 10 million of my companies (the company i work for) bottom line.

Yes, the AU$ is an issue, yes the rising cost of doing business is an issue, yes the GFC has had an impact, yes its not an even playing field already with Labour etc so much cheaper offshore....


I KNOW!!!!! Lets introduce a carbon tax, that will make us less competitive - just what we need....AND we will pay the highest price - Whilst europe is currently freezing over. If you were to listen to julia/combet, you would think the impact of this tax would be negligable. Its funny, every chance the Coalition get, the try to link everything back to the carbon tax.....the sky is falling in.

Just read the governments own estimates - it is actaully scary, and no doubt they are understating the impact......

[robtarr]

for me it's not just the quantum in dollars the carbon tax will generate it's more about what they're going to do with it if they ever get over through implementation phase without everyone going to court to argue the toss - which is a dead cert - the lawyers will want their slice of the action as well

can someone please explain the main purpose of the tax if:

a. half is to be given back in the form of compensation to those that can least afford the extra cost of living
b. and the other half given back to the major polluters in the form of subsidies to mitigate loss of profit and subsequent jobs

if the supporting logic is that it's high $23/tonne cost is designed to discourage heavy polluting industry then the closure of Point Henry as an example should be applauded by Gillard

seems like we're creating a huge washing machine full of money that will serve no productive purpose other than keep another bloated govt department busy

[NoBananas]

mark, the snapper ban is all so small fish compared to the duties the next government will have to provide, what would it be? A slice of the knife and a swipe of the pen and the ban no longer exists.
I openly admit that i hate labor, but your party is the next alternative and all you guys do is bag this and bag that without once mentioning how you would address the problems. Lawrence springborg lost 3 elections with that stance and constant bagging. For queenslands sake, get of your collective arses and start making the news that you have a plan to fix the state and give up on the constant bagging, bitching and whining about the current govt. Your party might scrape through with a minimal win if you guys keep your current antics going. Currently you are running a very poor race that is barely 51-49 over the bligh mob just because you guys do not build the confidence in the public, you just bitch this and bitch that.
I for one surely do not want to hire or vote in a bitch government. Get of your arses!

exactly!!!!!!!!

[Kevin Ferguson]

Paddles nothing wrong with keeping it simple & my bullshit call was in response to the newspaper article , not your reporting of it. I find myself becoming increasingly annoyed with the ever growing political spin. This is being exacerbated by the political commentators who in a lot of instances are no more than party hacks espousing the daily dot points of the party that they support. This spin can be clearly seen in this ( Alcoa ) case , with the opposition at the federal level ( Liberal ) claiming " that it's the carbon tax & its all Labors fault " whilst at the Vic state level the opposition ( Labor ) is claiming " it's the state governments fault & they don't support jobs". ( WTF??? ). Also watched question time and saw Julia serving it up to Tony about cheap political point scoring on the backs of the 600 odd workers who may lose their jobs. Was just about out of my seat cheering until I realized that their was to be no slap down of the state opposition leader for doing the same thing. ( Yes I know I have been foolish. In my defense I have since taken the advice of H.G.Nelson & "gone into the room full of mirrors" & " taken a damn good look at myself " )

LOL....these comments are classic.

Unsure what you find " classic ". Comments are what was happening in the Alcoa case with names & positions referenced for the people making the statements.

Yes, we are in a very tough market.....it is not just the aluminum industry that is hurting.

Well aware of this but my post was in direct answer to one on the Alcoa situation.

Yes, the AU$ is an issue,

I am currently in manufacturing with the main competition being the Chinese & would rate the high A$ and predictions of it maintaining its current price being the main concern in the short term.

I KNOW!!!!! Lets introduce a carbon tax, that will make us less competitive - just what we need

And you are sanguine about direct action?

Whilst europe is currently freezing over.

And your point is? Are you claiming that because Europe is freezing over that globally the planet cannot be warming. That would be like me claiming that WA cannot experience a drought because Qld is in flood. If this is your claim you need to acquaint yourself on the facts that at this point in time the planet GLOBALLY is experiencing warming. Some of the questions that need to be addressed are 1. is this just a normal part of the weather cycle? 2. can the link between warming & industrialization be established or is it coincidental that industrialization occurred as a natural heating cycle was beginning? 3. can the data be reliable when it is a miniscule snapshot when actual "earth time " is considered? ( Remember the ozone layer & Y2K )

Its funny, every chance the Coalition get, the try to link everything back to the carbon tax.....the sky is falling in.

I refer you to my post on page 18 of this thread re- carbon tax / GST.

Just read the governments own estimates - it is actaully scary, and no doubt they are understating the impact......

Which estimates? Compiled by who? I don't trust politicians. Again go to page 18 as I have referenced the treasury figures.

Again I urge you to go to page 18 where I am clearly on the record stating that I do not believe we need a CARBON TAX nor DIRECT ACTION. I have tried to follow most post here on this topic & am of the belief that this is the majority view of most people on this site. Finally I also understand that I WILL be getting a carbon tax July this year as legislation has passed both houses of Federal parliament.

Cheers Kevin.

[lampuki]

Hey Kevin.

Please dont think i was having a shot at you, my "classic" comment wasnt in reference to any of your previous threads, however, some of the comments in your last thread were amusing.

"Was just about out of my seat cheering" - How anyone could even contemplate cheering for Julia is beyond me - You must be a lot more willing to forgive and forget than I.

In response to the rest of your observations though:

Modelling/Estimates on Carbon Tax Policy:

Its not hard to find the treasury docs on crabon tax modelling, a quick google search will lead you to:

http://www.treasury.gov.au/carbonpri...ent/report.asp

Draw your own conclusion. You will also find a mountain of doco and analysis extremley criticial of the proposal. In addition to this, you have the delloite's access economics review. It is a stupid policy, based upon flawed assumptions, that has only seen the light of day, becuase one party was willing to sell their soul to the Greens, and do dodgy deals to form government. I am honestly surpised that we dont have more legislation to achieve some of the other Greens objectives, such as shutting down the coal industry within 20 years and mandatory female quoatas on the boards of companies.

Direct Action

With regard to direct action, anyone, who watches question time, would realise that even Labor dont believe the coalition would implement the policy - (directly from the mouth of Julia herself) Not that i am condoning putting forth a policy you have no intention of implementing - its a stupid position, one i think, as i commented on another thread, born from a fear of the green vote. Coalition is loosing credability IMO for holding this position.

Climate Change, formerly known as global warming.

I dont trust climate scientists. Granted, not all climate scientists are the same, but the wording in the emails hacked during the climate gate scandal has made me extremley skeptical - and no, its not a dirty word!

"If this is your claim you need to acquaint yourself on the facts that at this point in time the planet GLOBALLY is experiencing warming" - Really?

The latest sat data (the most accurate form of measurement) i can find, shows that, in your words, "this point in time" that we are in a cooling trend.

http://www.drroyspencer.com/latest-global-temperatures/

I saw an article today, compiled by a group of scientist, from several nations, explaining the recent cold trends seen in europe, explaining this phenomen as a result of the melting ice, which reached a record low point in 2007. I am not saying that climate doesnt change, and nor do I want to debate what deems an appropriate period of time when determining warming/cooling trends. I am not convinced of a significant Carbon-global worming link, I dont believe that we should be proceeding with the carbon tax - event if the link was proved definitivley. A global strategy is required to resolve this issue.

What happened with WOW light and Sound???? The high australian dollar helps their business model. Is consumer confidence so weak, that an organisation such as WOW cant survive? 500 jobs are on the line. And this is the point i was making, I am not convinced of the Carbon-global worming link, i do know that we are really struggling at the moment. Here is how pricing carbon is going in Europe...

http://joannenova.com.au/2011/12/car...w-of-6-3-euro/

[robtarr]

[FONT=Tahoma]

. Here is how pricing carbon is going in Europe...

http://joannenova.com.au/2011/12/car...w-of-6-3-euro/

and here's a measure of how well a couple of major nations are managing their commitment to CO2 tax to tackle supposed "climate change".....we're obviously way "out of step with the world" Juliar

Andrew Bolt – Wednesday, February 29, 12 (11:53 am)


Julia Gillard, May 2011:

Overwhelmingly, our nation wants to act on climate change - but some worry it won’t be good for us if we get out in front of the world. They don’t have to worry, because the world is moving too… We want to stay in step with the world ...

US President Barack Obama to Congress, January 2012:

The differences in this chamber may be too deep right now to pass a comprehensive plan to fight climate change.

Japan, February 2012:

JAPAN has become the latest major world polluter to rule out introducing a carbon price or carbon tax in the near future, as it struggles with power shortages and a rising yen caused by the euro crisis.
Senior Japanese diplomatic officials in Tokyo have told The Australian there is “no chance” of the country adopting a scheme similar to Australia’s carbon tax or emissions trading scheme in the foreseeable future.
Japan, the world’s fifth-largest carbon emitter, joins the US and Canada in backtracking on the introduction of a carbon price.”

Japan is the fifth-largest emitter, Australia is fiftteenth.

[lampuki]

"The Carbon Tax aims to reduce Australia’s CO2 output by 160 million tonnes. World CO2 emissions in 2008 were 29,888,121 million tonnes.
So that makes Australia’s CO2 reduction 0.00053533%" from the link in my previous post.

[Kevin Ferguson]

Lampuki

Yes I have taken your " classic ' comment the wrong way and I apologize. Generally used as a slight put down in the circles I frequent. Have noted your use of the term and will not make the same mistake again.

As to the rest after reading your reply I think we might be arguing the same points from the same side at a different angle.

1. cheering Julia - (sarcasm) highlighting the duplicity of condemning Abbott for point scoring over lost jobs ( which he deserved ) whilst NOT whacking State Labor ( Vic ) opposition leader for doing the same thing. (The H.G Nelson bit was a go at myself for being an idealist)

2. carbon tax - treasury docs was what I was on about also. All the hysteria about rises of 10% and more , inflationary pressures etc. Bottom line in ECONOMIC terms ( as per treasury modeling ) to the economy is slightly less than the GST introduction. Will there be winners & losers - yes Will it be a (expensive) money go round - yes Will it reduce GLOBAL carbon - No ( well not exactly true it will reduce as per the % you have supplied ).

3. direct action - IMO people can't complain about a carbon tax without also denigrating the direct action policy as well. From where I sit they both amount to the same thing( & same result NADA ). OP Mark R. ( Lib MP ) finally answered a question & stated he supports direct action.I believe that this thread should have been titled "Why you don't want a CARBON TAX OR DIRECT ACTION as a rec fisher" but I suppose that wouldn't be following the party line. Also won't let any politician slide on the "nudge nudge wink wink " principle. Direct action is now moot as carbon tax is in come July.

4. climate - again I think we are on the same page(???) when I used the term at this point I was referring to 100 + years ( not even a blip in "earth time ) that the warming trend has been occurring( start of industrial revolution ) & questioned why this could not be considered part of the natural cycle. Also questioned linking Ind Rev and carbon from it to warming trend as Ind Rev may just have began at the same time as a natural upward heat trend (just a coincidence). As you say latest Sat Data shows lowering. Euro freeze - I have misinterpreted this part of your post to mean it's cold there so we can't be warming , sorry. My point was globally may be different than localized ( continent ) conditions.

5. referring you to page 18 - I kept referring you here as I was getting the feeling that you thought I was in favour of the carbon tax. Also to allow you some context as to my reply.

6. WOW Sight & Sound - you must be physic as I was going to add a paragraph about the continued slump in Retail sector with the A$ being high that they should be experiencing an upturn. Trouble is my typing is that slow that I decided to quit while I was behind. ( This is not a joke as I had to type the reply twice as when I went to submit the original I had been logged off ).
Was going to surmise that a few factors may be
1. As a result of GFC most people reviewed their discretionary spending & I think that this is still occurring regardless of their actual financial position. This may be a fundamental shift & not a short term response.

2. People like myself & older ( baby boomers ) are not tempted to buy just for the sake of buying. Probably own everything outright ( or damn near ). Baby boomers starting to de-clutter (???). I don't stint myself but find myself questioning whether I really want / need to buy. Fortunately if it is fishing or golf related it is a damn certainty that it is indispensable.

3. Tightening of credit. Some of the people that were getting the "nothing down nothing to pay for 1/3/5 fill in your own time frame " are no longer qualifying. And I am not slinging off at anyone availing themselves of credit.

4. General feeling of unease with events overseas.

5. Talking the economy down. Yes it is tough. Certain sectors are lagging (manufacturing retail service industries) but Aust is in a good position compared to most other countries. Be skeptical of our pollies & the talking heads and ascertain the facts & not rely on the glib the 30 second sound bite.

Cheers Kevin

[lampuki]

Hi Kevin.

I think you missed the most important point of all with regard to the down turn.

6 (should be point 1a) Rising cost of living pressures. Insurance, electricity, fuel etc is sky rocketing. And this issue is going to increase thanks to several policies which are about to be introduced. Never forget, its those that have money that are able to spend money. You squeeze this sector of the community, expect sales to tank, and the knock on effect is significant.

What is the govenrment doing to address this?

[Gazza]

"The Carbon Tax aims to reduce Australia’s CO2 output by 160 million tonnes. World CO2 emissions in 2008 were 29,888,121 million tonnes.
So that makes Australia’s CO2 reduction 0.00053533%" from the link in my previous post.

Hi Lampy , didn't do good at maths mate.

you seem to have X-references to 2 different facts.

please clarify 160 M tonnes , as a % of OZ output presently.

[lampuki]

Hi Gazza.

I am sorry that you didn't do good at math, or comprehension.

I didn't cross reference anything, that was a direct quote from the link - from Joanne. Her credentials can be seen at: http://joannenova.com.au/about/biog/

The statement Joanne made is logical.

With regard to your last comment, who cares!

[Gazza]

Excessively polluting Industries of Australia do/don't care Lampy ,why do you care Globally ??
Is LNP the new global force ??