solder weld then crimp or crimp only

[finga]

So where do you send crimpers for pre-insulated terminals (or any non-hydraulic crimpers) to be calibrated?
What's it worth?

[oldboot]

I used to send mine back to Carroll terminal.....at one time they used to do it in house, but I believe they sub it out now...all that changed when it all went south.

Last time I sent mine for repair and they came back calibtrated and tagged... but I was not charged.

Previoulsy too long to remember the charge.

I seem to remember a couple of times I hit em with a good order and they did if for nothing while I waited...... but that is back when I used to front the counter over at Zilmere and speak with young Master Carroll.

In QLD, "Rediquip" a division of energex would be worth an ask.....they or the in house instrument lab can do most things.
They do my harnes and meters.

cheers

[Getout]

Is solder a bad conductor?

[TheRealAndy]

Is solder a bad conductor?

Depends what your doing with it, but generally speaking no.

Problem with solder is not its electrical conductivity, but its physical strength and its odd thermal properties.

[oldboot]

60/40 lead tin solder is not a particularly good conductor of both heat and electricity

It is nowhere near as good a conductor as copper or silver or even iron.

tin has about 15% the conductivity of copper and lead has about 7% the conductivity of copper. ( sorry andy)

where high conductivity is requireed a silver or gold alloy solder is often used.

Where the conductivity of solder becomes a problem is where it is not the copper to copper contact in the joint that is carrying the current but the solder.......particularly in heavy current joints.

In a good solder joint the two parts of copper should be mechanicaly intemate the solder simply filling the voids.

This is why there IS a problem with simply putting a large cable into a lug and soldering it......the wire ie neither retained in the cup and it is not forced into mechainical intemacy with the lug......so the whole current is carried by lead & tin
at arround 10% the conductivity of copper.

All the solder joints I was trained on as an apprentice has some mechaincal means in the termination in addition to the solder.

We were beaten over the head with the idea of poor conductivity of solder, and for good reason.

cheers

[ozscott]

I have a set of Ashdown crimpers that do insulated and non-insulated; not the ratchet type but the scissor type...are they one and the same as the pressed tin ones that OB is talking about. I use them on the usual red, blue and yellow terminals and do the pull test and typically its all good.

One of my brothers is a motor mechanic of 33 years experience and he has handbuilt and wired more cars, trucks and buses (including fuel injection, diesel systems etc) than I have had hot dinners and he has done some boats. He is anal and has very reliable motors. He sometimes solders, but generally uses a set of good quality scissor type crimpers like I use and he is careful and takes time with them and pull tests each one, and if there is any doubt at all does it again with a new terminal.

Interesting topic this.

Cheers

[TheRealAndy]

60/40 lead tin solder is not a particularly good conductor of both heat and electricity

It is nowhere near as good a conductor as copper or silver or even iron.

tin has about 15% the conductivity of copper and lead has about 7% the conductivity of copper. ( sorry andy)

where high conductivity is requireed a silver or gold alloy solder is often used.

Where the conductivity of solder becomes a problem is where it is not the copper to copper contact in the joint that is carrying the current but the solder.......particularly in heavy current joints.

In a good solder joint the two parts of copper should be mechanicaly intemate the solder simply filling the voids.

This is why there IS a problem with simply putting a large cable into a lug and soldering it......the wire ie neither retained in the cup and it is not forced into mechainical intemacy with the lug......so the whole current is carried by lead & tin
at arround 10% the conductivity of copper.

All the solder joints I was trained on as an apprentice has some mechaincal means in the termination in addition to the solder.

We were beaten over the head with the idea of poor conductivity of solder, and for good reason.

cheers

Seriously oldboot, are you using solder as a transmission line? Are you trying to use it to power an anchor winch?

Solder is a good conductor. Air and glass and plastic are bad conductors.

[oldboot]

Ya can get good results from cheaper crimpers, but ya have to have strong hands and quite a bit more care.

I used pressed tin crimpers for years till i baught my first ratchet set......I had to go back because my good set went missing.........can be done but not as easy and quick/

Ya gota do the pull test.

cheers

[oldboot]

Seriously oldboot, are you using solder as a transmission line? Are you trying to use it to power an anchor winch?

Solder is a good conductor. Air and glass and plastic are bad conductors.

Air glass and plastic are insulators.

I would have thaught that anything that performs at 10% of the reference would be considered poor.

The conductivity of solder is far less of a problem in transmission line situations than in high current connections

solder in an uncrimped lug may be carrying all the current and at 10% of the conductivity of copper, the solder its self can present a hot spot.....combine that with its low melting point and you have a wire popping out of a lug just as has been witnesed

No mechanical retention and no intemate copper contact, and unlike some other solder connections no significant increase in crosssectional area at the terminal.

everbody is banging on about voltage drop in the wire....what about in the lug where the voltage drop could be 10 times higher than in the surrounding cable.

Even if the lug was bashed with a hammer before soldering you would be better off

cheers

[Fed]

The CSA of the soldered section would be at least 10x the CSA of the cable, the solder provides the mechanical retention and replaces the need for intimate copper contact.
Your points are mute oldboot.

[TheRealAndy]

Air glass and plastic are insulators.

I would have thaught that anything that performs at 10% of the reference would be considered poor.

The conductivity of solder is far less of a problem in transmission line situations than in high current connections

solder in an uncrimped lug may be carrying all the current and at 10% of the conductivity of copper, the solder its self can present a hot spot.....combine that with its low melting point and you have a wire popping out of a lug just as has been witnesed

No mechanical retention and no intemate copper contact, and unlike some other solder connections no significant increase in crosssectional area at the terminal.

everbody is banging on about voltage drop in the wire....what about in the lug where the voltage drop could be 10 times higher than in the surrounding cable.

Even if the lug was bashed with a hammer before soldering you would be better off

cheers

Seriously oldboot, your dribbling there. Work the the resistance of the solder in a crimped connector, that is the resistance between the copper of the lug and the copper of the wire (and dont forget, the lug is plated in another bad conductor). It is going to be so insignificant it will never be an issue. I challenge you to do the experiment, solder a large cable into a lug, then hook it up to some dummy load. Measure the voltage drop across the solder. I would be surprised if you had an instrument that would be able to measure it.

The problem with soldering a crimp lug has nothing to do with the electrical properties of solder, it has everything to do with the mechanical properties.

[finga]

Seems like all those years cable joining and soldering have been a waste of time.
Oh well.

Solder can't be too bad. Nasa use solder an awful lot.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/NS87393.pdf

I would have thaught that anything that performs at 10% of the reference would be considered poor.
Have you got a reference for that??

I just had a weird thought.
If tin and lead are such bad conductors why is the better wire we use, and is recommended, in boats coated in the stuff.
If you crimp tinned wire (and the tinned bit is the bad bit right) isn't that comparatively the same as soldering a lug seeing the solder is the weak link??
There's still tin and lead in the critical parts of the joint.
....no not critical length...critical part ya goose.

[TheRealAndy]

Seems like all those years cable joining and soldering have been a waste of time.
Oh well.

Solder can't be too bad. Nasa use solder an awful lot.
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/doctree/NS87393.pdf

I would have thaught that anything that performs at 10% of the reference would be considered poor.
Have you got a reference for that??

I have had problems with the electrical properties of solder before, but thats only dealing with really, really small currents like those used for pH sensors (ie measuring the resistance of glass almost!). But when you get to those sort of currents, resistance is the least of your issues, radiated noise from 240V and radio stations are more of an issue!

[Noelm]

looks like the twist the wires together and wack some insulation tape on them is the way to go! or for the real technical ones, maybe a BP connector as well. Just thought of a completely useless bit of trivia, who can tell me what BP stands for when referring to connectors?

[Fed]

Bluepoint or Bluepoint Products mate, they used to be part of Utilux based over in Kingsgrove Sydney.
One of those brand names that turned onto a product description like Megger, AVO meter or Ross Courtneys.