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Thread: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

  1. #31

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    Quote Originally Posted by seastorm View Post
    A restricted Electrical ticket will only allow you to disconnect and reconnect 240v AC it does not allow you to run any cable.
    not quite true..can do three phase on one also.

  2. #32

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    Quote Originally Posted by seastorm View Post
    A restricted Electrical ticket will only allow you to disconnect and reconnect 240v AC it does not allow you to run any cable.
    I thought restricted used to have several classes. You could work on anything that plugged into the mains, and there where a couple of classes that allowed you to work on stuff that was hardwired, such as aircon and water heaters?


  3. #33

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    I cannot wire a new system..I can disconnect an existing system..install a new system and connect those wires to it...but i am not allowed to run new wiring..how bloody stupid. In a lot of cases i have to stand there and tell the sparkie what is required.

  4. #34

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    I should re phase my statement a restricted ticket allows you to work on low voltage equipment, disconnect, reconnect, test and fault find the main point is you are not allowed to run cables, I'm not 100% sure but I think Air Con guys are not allowed to do inter-connects on split systems if they are not a sparkie. Anyway this is probably getting off the point of the original thread.

  5. #35

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    you are correct..cannot do interconnecting wiring but some think they can and still do.

  6. #36

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    Fair enough. I got the full trade cert as an instument fitter (dual trade) but never used it. I was in uni before I finished my trade so the only real electrical work I did was when I was an apprentice and what they made you do at tafe on switchboards and crap, plus everthing I did was commercial or industrial.


  7. #37

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    Finga again

    We realy have to understand what is and isnt law and who generates it.
    A buliten from MSQ is not law and has no legal standing whatsoever.
    MSQ does not make law, parliment makes law.......

    All the government departments issue all sorts of publications......but unless it is and "ACT" or a "Regulation"...it is not law...many of these publications have disclaimers to that effect.

    It may make reference to, paraphrase or explain law.....it may make recomendations or give advice but almost nothing nothing a govermnent department issues is law.

    As for the bit about speaker cabling.....read it and understand the issue....There are arguments exactly like this about speaker cabling......the issues are very very similar............reading a single standard, regulation or law in isolation may very much give the wrong impression.....

    Believe me I know this argument.....not being a full ticket sparky, I have had to know an make this or a similar argument regularly all my working life just to be allowed to do my job.


    In the mains connected electrical world, the aplications of standards mandated under law is universal and unavoidable, and squarely inside that system things are pretty cut and dried ( thank god for that)........but for good or bad this is one of the few environments where things are that clear and consistent.....even then when you poke at the edges things do get fuzzy..... a very large portion of standards issued have no legal standing...for good or bad that is the way it is.

    cheers
    Its the details, those little details, that make the difference.

  8. #38

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    Quote Originally Posted by oldboot View Post
    Finga again

    We realy have to understand what is and isnt law and who generates it.
    A buliten from MSQ is not law and has no legal standing whatsoever.
    MSQ does not make law, parliment makes law.......

    All the government departments issue all sorts of publications......but unless it is and "ACT" or a "Regulation"...it is not law...many of these publications have disclaimers to that effect.

    It may make reference to, paraphrase or explain law.....it may make recomendations or give advice but almost nothing nothing a govermnent department issues is law.

    As for the bit about speaker cabling.....read it and understand the issue....There are arguments exactly like this about speaker cabling......the issues are very very similar............reading a single standard, regulation or law in isolation may very much give the wrong impression.....

    Believe me I know this argument.....not being a full ticket sparky, I have had to know an make this or a similar argument regularly all my working life just to be allowed to do my job.


    In the mains connected electrical world, the aplications of standards mandated under law is universal and unavoidable, and squarely inside that system things are pretty cut and dried ( thank god for that)........but for good or bad this is one of the few environments where things are that clear and consistent.....even then when you poke at the edges things do get fuzzy..... a very large portion of standards issued have no legal standing...for good or bad that is the way it is.

    cheers
    here is a list of Standards I have to comply with on a recent project:
    AS1055
    AS1324
    AS1432
    AS3000
    AS1668 Parts 1, 2 & 3
    AS1670
    AS1677
    AS1682
    AS4254
    AS1851
    AS1735
    AS2107
    The Building Code of Australia

    Each of those Standards may not have a legal standing as a stand alone item BUT, once they are included in the BCA they are law. You have to follow the trail as set down in the BCA. It is all good fun following that little journal.

  9. #39

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    Quote Originally Posted by oldboot View Post
    Finga again

    We realy have to understand what is and isnt law and who generates it.
    A buliten from MSQ is not law and has no legal standing whatsoever.
    MSQ does not make law, parliment makes law.......

    All the government departments issue all sorts of publications......but unless it is and "ACT" or a "Regulation"...it is not law...many of these publications have disclaimers to that effect.

    It may make reference to, paraphrase or explain law.....it may make recomendations or give advice but almost nothing nothing a govermnent department issues is law.

    As for the bit about speaker cabling.....read it and understand the issue....There are arguments exactly like this about speaker cabling......the issues are very very similar............reading a single standard, regulation or law in isolation may very much give the wrong impression.....

    Believe me I know this argument.....not being a full ticket sparky, I have had to know an make this or a similar argument regularly all my working life just to be allowed to do my job.


    In the mains connected electrical world, the aplications of standards mandated under law is universal and unavoidable, and squarely inside that system things are pretty cut and dried ( thank god for that)........but for good or bad this is one of the few environments where things are that clear and consistent.....even then when you poke at the edges things do get fuzzy..... a very large portion of standards issued have no legal standing...for good or bad that is the way it is.

    cheers
    That is, until you screw it up one day and end up in court!! I reckon the lawyers would have you for dinner, especially if someone was injured or killed.


  10. #40

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    So a simple question Oldboot that needs a yes or no answer and maybe a simple explanation as to the answer.
    Do you carry a paddle or drinking water or an anchor in your boat?

    I also take it your answer is no there is no requirement for extra low voltage wiring on a recreational boat to comply to any standard.
    I intend on living for-ever....so far so good


  11. #41

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    Quote Originally Posted by finga View Post
    So a simple question Oldboot that needs a yes or no answer and maybe a simple explanation as to the answer.
    Do you carry a paddle or drinking water or an anchor in your boat?

    I also take it your answer is no there is no requirement for extra low voltage wiring on a recreational boat to comply to any standard.
    If you are referring to the GSO

    I do carry a effective manual propulsion and drinking water aboard

    But to say that that then makes standards apply is faulty logic.

    the GSO is mandated under law........remember I raised the GSO as an issue very early on.

    The GSO is also quite vague......

    There may be some things that are specificaly mentioned as required to satisfy the GSO, it is an otherwise open ended and vague concept.
    This is not well understood, but the GSO is both vague and far reaching.

    As long as the electrical system was safe and fit for purpose that would be certainly sufficient to satisfy the GSO.

    As far as not complying with standards ending you up in court...unless there was a wreckless failure in the work, you would not end up there. And then the provisions of a standard that had no mandate under law would have little sway on the matter either way.

    Below is a MSQ summary of the GSO.

    General safety obligation

    As the fundamental principle of the Transport Operations (Marine Safety) legislation, the general safety obligation transfers the responsibility of safety to owners and operators and encourages risk management. The Transport Operations (Marine Safety) Act 1994 imposes general safety obligations on:
    • ship designers, builders and surveyors about the condition of ships
    • persons involved with the operation of a ship to operate it safely
    • owners and masters about safety equipment.
    All owners and operators, masters and crew members must ensure the ship is:
    • safe
    • properly equipped and crewed
    • operated in a safe manner.
    These general safety obligations prohibit a ship from going to sea if it is not properly built and maintained, equipped, crewed and operated in accordance with its proposed operating environment.
    The Transport Operations (Marine Safety) Act 1994 provides penalties for breach of safety obligations.

    Last updated: 16 August 2010

    from the act

    section 2 para 32

    What happens if aperson does not comply with a relevant standard
    (1) If a person does not comply with a relevant standard, this may establish noncompliance with a general safety obligation.
    (2) However the court may be satisfied that the ship was safe even though the standard was not complied with.

    Example-
    If a designer sesigns a ship that does not comply with a standard for the design of a ship of the type being deigned, the noncompliance with the standard may establish that the seaworthyness declaration made by the ship designer was not correct. However, the ship designer may satisfy the court that the ship was seaworthy, despite of the standard.

    Remember this quote is in the middle of a section that applys to all shipping, and indicates a stiuation where a standard is clearly required for the seaworthyness certificate.

    No matter how much you huff & puff, you cant make a standard apply outside its scope and you cant make a legal obligation where there is not a law to mandate it.

    The fact remains.
    There is no legal obligation concerning how a recreational small craft is wired at 12 or 24 volts, there are no standards that are mandatory.

    There are no licencing requirement concerning workers doing this work

    BUT

    There is a General Saftey Obligation that it is safe and fit for purpose

    AND

    There are some standards that may be used as guidance, and you can comply with if you wish.

    Even then, the standards that do have scope and that could be applied are not suffiient on their own to result in a safe and fit for purpose job.

    If ya want to argue this matter further ya realy have to have read the legeslation

    If you want to make a standard apply, you have to read that......including the boring bits like the preface, scope and definitions.

    Remember standards and legeslation very rarely tell you what does not apply, they just tell you what does.....even then this can be contradicted by some other text.

    the legeslation can be found here

    http://www.msq.qld.gov.au/Legislation.aspx

    I have in the past read at least the top 4, and the electrical safety act and regulations in their entiriety.
    I have also gone to the horses mouth and got specific answers on similar matters.

    cheers
    Its the details, those little details, that make the difference.

  12. #42

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    God bugger me.
    A simple explanation.
    I did not even bother reading that.
    Why do you carry an oar, drinking water and an anchor in 4 sentences or less?
    I intend on living for-ever....so far so good


  13. #43

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    Because they are specificaly mandated by law...and I would carry them regardless of any law or standard.

    And if you cant be bothered reading "What happens if a person does not comply with a relevant standard"....a quote from legeslation

    you have no hope of understanding this issue.

    cheers
    Its the details, those little details, that make the difference.

  14. #44

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    Where is it legislated, mandated,or any other dated, that an oar, drinking water and an anchor has to be carried?
    I intend on living for-ever....so far so good


  15. #45

    Re: Legalities of electrical work on recreational vessels in QLD

    So what you guys are saying, i can not wire 240 volts to my shed without a peice of paper. Red connects to red, Black to black and yellow to yellow in a junction box.

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