Yeh the 240v thing...no question, unless it is "foreign going" licenced work, a stack of standards apply and the electrical safety office has the power.
but 12 volts DC is a free for all.
cheers
Yeh the 240v thing...no question, unless it is "foreign going" licenced work, a stack of standards apply and the electrical safety office has the power.
but 12 volts DC is a free for all.
cheers
Its the details, those little details, that make the difference.
there is nothing difficult about wiring a boat..some wire..some gear and let it rip.
Thankfully someone has shown common sense and not implemented any more crap regulations on it.
For those that think 12 dc is pretty well harmless, grab hold of the charging circuit off the alternator and see how you fair after that!
I am pleased you pointed this out.Originally Posted by PinHead
Fixing poor wiring done by others makes up about 50% of what I do
Low Voltage:
Old Boot has it nailed.
Just to add to that:
AS/NZS 3000 / 3004, Electrical Safety Act & Regulations and associated legislation covers all 240v installaions on boats.
The Electrical Safety Office had a blitz on unlicensed electrical contractors doing work on boats about 2 years ago.
As per usual with legislation, they found many "grey areas"
The big one was if a boat is connected to shore power at a marina then the ESO has duristiction over it, as it is connected to the power grid that they control.
If it is not connected then they have absolutely no power to inspect the wiring system on a that boat... so a boat with just a genset to deliver 240v power can get off scott free (in theory)
I don't know if they did change the legislation pertaining to this point or not.
The real sticky part is if someone gets hurt / killed because of a dodgy installation, then the courts will take precedence and make someone (probably the skipper) accountable for the fact that the wiring was not to an acceptable standard.
Funny how in this case the boat owner can not be inspected and fined by the ESO under current legislation, but they can be prosecuted by a court under the same legislation if someone is hurt / killed.
Extra Low Voltage:
12, 24 & occasionally 32 volt systems are what we deal with here.
There is no regulation to cover installation for these voltages.
Some guidelines do exist, but it is generally done by following the manufacturers' guidelines for installation of their product.
12 & 24 is capable of, but not likely to electrocute you.
The biggest risk is fire, of which both 12 & 24 are more than capable of starting.
A fire at sea can be deadly, especially with chain reaction of events that follow - suffocation, shock, drowning, explosion etc.
No regulation doesn't mean it is easy to do 12 / 24 volt wiring.
The theory of connecting red wires and black wires is very simple, the execution of such when you have to plan for expected current load, waterproofing, cable types & sizes, fuse sizes, battery type and capacity all becomes a pretty involved situation.
Take a look at Captain Seaweeds Noble Super Vee that we did.
http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/sho...+seaweed+noble
The planning for a fitout like this is critical to the success and longevity of the whole project.
In the absence of decent written standards, I make my own so that I can deliver quality and consistency in all electrical work that I do.
Cheers
Pete
GM, if you ever make it up Bundy way - please let me know.
4 years ago I bought a refurbished fiberglass 5.5m boat. Took it out for the first time and after about 1/2 hour the starboard side gunnel caught fire. I turned the engine off, put the fire out and found the wiring burnt in one section.
Got a tow back in and took it to the dealer that I purchased it off.
A few days later I picked it up after it was fixed the dealer said I was lucky to be alive. The Fuel sender was wired wrong and direct to the battery??.
The boat was on consignment and the owner had done all the wiring.
Gidday Pete.
It's good that you've commented.
I reckon if everyone did work to the same standard as you we'd all be on a good thing.
And don't get me wrong...I've seen absolutely amasing work from non electricians.
Guys like Grand Marlin (Pete) and Spaniard King (Gary) are always busy and for good reasons. They're absolutely marvellous at wiring up boats and doing wiring repairs on boats and to my knowledge are not qualified electricians to any degree. Please correct me if I'm wrong fella's.
Pete, the problems associated with shore power and generator sets you've mentioned has been fixed up in AS 3004.2:2008.
The scope now says specifies requirements for the design, construction and installation of electrical systems in recreational boats that have a length of up to 50m, and are designed for use on inland waters or at sea.
Now to the legalities for ELV.
A lot boils down to the Transport Operations (Marine Safety) Act 1994 where owners and other persons involved with boats have a general safety obligation regarding the condition of ships,including the condition of a boat's electrical installation.
A while ago I read the MSQ Bulletin Oldboot put a link up for and there are two key words there that could change the entire meaning and outlook of the bulletin.
I am extremely surprised they have used these two words because they are a can of worms in regards to interpretation.
I draw your attention to the following passage that is included in the section on definitions..and I quote:
electrical work
is generally, work at voltages above ELV. Electrical work includes testing and
supervising electrical work
The 2 words that could mean anything are is generally.
Having been used to reading and understanding standards all my working life I was very surprised with their use especially in this context.
Normally words like must, will, is are the norm.
And then there is another publication from MSQ that gives tips for installing navigational lights on boats less then 20m which is available here.
There is another key passage there.
If you read under the heading WIRING there are a few key points.
In that passage you can see the word MUST a few times.
Must is a definite. Unless you do that it's wrong.
The first sentence says..and again a quote:
Navigational light wiring must be installed in accordance with a recognised code
And then further down:
Conductors used for wiring must be sized to ensure no more then 3% voltage drop.
So from what I read there is a code but what is it and where else must it be followed is the $64,000 question.
I have mentioned this previously on numerous occasions.
So oldboot 3% voltage drop is the go for navigational lights. No humming or arrrring or guessing. It's 3% or better or it's wrong.
So what does that all mean??
From the MSQ document it all boils down to the meaning, or interpretation, of the 2 words is generally.
On one end of the scale it could mean that work classed as ELV on a boat can be done by anyone to no standard but at the opposite end of the spectrum it could also mean only qualified electricians can do any electrical work on boats that must comply to a particular standard or code.
And then from the MSQ technical tips for installing navigational lights they mention a wiring code so there must be one that must be followed.
Those few words may not seem much to the average person but they could change everything.
Now after those two little items there is a publication called
Electrical installations - Marina's and recreational boats.
Part 2: Recreational boats installations.
Which is commonly known as AS/NZS 3004.2:2008.
Section 1.1 Scope says, and I quote:
This Part of AS/NZS 3004 specifies requirements for the design, construction and installation of electrical systems in recreational boats that have a length of up to 50 m, and are designed for use on inland waters or at sea. It is not intended to apply to small boats equipped with a battery supplying circuits for engine starting and navigation lighting only that are recharged from an inboard or outboard engine driven alternator.
This to me means that the only parts of an electrical installation of a recreational boat under the length of 50m that are exempt from this standard are motor start and navigational lighting circuits (all other circuits like electronics, bilge pumps, anchor winches and the like must follow the standard) and if you have any other onboard means of recharging batteries like solar panel or on-board 240V battery charger and the like you must also follow this standard in it's entirety.
By my understanding of the scope of AS 3004.2:2008 the only vessels (under 50m) that would be exempt from any of AS 3004.2:2008 would be a vessel with navigational lights, electric start for the motor and a battery....and that's about it electrically speaking.
So are they just slips of the pen or something deeper that no-one bothers to inquire about??
I've asked for clarification. Hopefully they will be cleared up.
The plot thickens....
I intend on living for-ever....so far so good
We keep getting back to the diference between laws and standards.
It matters not what any standard says......until it is mandated BY LAW none of it is compulsory and that standard may be mandated whole or in parts.
AND
Even if the scope and application of the standard says something or other is included, it does not mean it is IN LAW, it simply means it could be if a law was passed that says so, or that you can apply the standard of your own free will because it is appropraite.
As far as the notion of "electrical work" that is very well defined in the electrical safety act....and that is a critical starting point...and it is pretty well universaly applied across Australia in law unlike in the past.
"Electrical work" does not include ELV work unless it is involved with higher voltage work...for example ELV cables run with higher voltages or not seperated from higher voltages.
Some time ago I had some serious questions about sound system wiring as some were trying to make speaker wiring " electricians work" on some sites....
I rang as spoke to a high ranking contact in the ESO, and regarding these issues,
and how the act seems to read......His comment was " that was not our intention", as he worked on drafting the legeslation.
Since then the communications cabling standard has cleared the matter up and defined "LV communications cableing" and a whole pile of regs that apply and mandated it as "communications cablers work"
But it does get a little complicated.....if you want to run speakers or other similar cabling with the sparkies cables, ya have to play by AS3000 and such, If you want to play with the telephone and data boys you have to play by the communications rules..and they are very different.
OR
If those cables are run in isolation of all other cabling no regulations apply at all
In coms cabling ......the sepearation specs are much stricter and more complicated and double insulation is not even acknowlodged in coms cabling....as for earthing AS3000 is a childrens party in comparison...even the thresholds of ELV,LV & HV are differently defined for the purpose of the reg.....the Com's regs are federaly mandated and the electrical regs are state mandated.
I post the above to illustrate that there can be vast differences in standards and often there is a choice or a vaguery or a clear distinction that may not be aparant from reading a law, regulation or a standard in isolation.
As far as a boat running on a generator not being under QLD ESO durisdiction......there may be situations where they have no durisdicton such as foreign going vessels and may be interstate vessels...... but as soon as that boat is on dry land or above the high water mark, they definitely have you, and if the work was done in QLD they have you.
As for the necessity or practicality of regulating ELV electrical on recreational boats.
I don't believe it is either necessary nor practical.
Hell they cant even get a good level of compliance in the correct fitting and operation of 3 simple lights, red, green and all round white, so what hope have they got of regulating wiring.
The reality is
The things that are going to make a real difference in safety, durability and fitness for purpose.....are matters of workmanship and things that the individual will do because they know what is right and they want to do it regardless of any standard, code or regulation.
Those of us that get good results do so because we want to and we have the ability to do so........
Those who don't give a S##T wont be deteered by any law or regulation...I still come across all sorts of 240V electrical stuff done by these idiots that is beyond question, illegal and dangerous.
I do however believe it would be very helpfull for there to be a comprehensive code or a recomendation document written in plain language and easily available to help those who want to know . And this document to be promoted and freely available free to all that ask.
cheers
Its the details, those little details, that make the difference.
The key is the Transport Operations (Marine Safety) Act 1994.
And the Transport Operations (Marine Safety) Act 1994 is law is it not??
There is a general safety obligation implied within that Act.
Isn't that why we have to have all that safety gear on-board??
I quote again.. where owners and other persons involved with boats have a general safety obligation regarding the condition of ships,including the condition of a boat's electrical installation.
And then there's the MSQ bulletin. There is no questioning those 2 words mentioned and their wide range of meaning.
MSQ make and enforce the 'boating rules' for QLD don't they??
What I have been talking about has been directed entirely towards electrical work on boats and legalities...nothing more.So please keep to boats.
We do not need to know about PA systems.
I gave up reading the above because...well there was just so much not related to the topic in question.
And something else to ponder...just because you say it doesn't exist doesn't mean it doesn't exist..
Now that's deep....
I intend on living for-ever....so far so good
This is what the USL code states for commercial vessels. Its pretty broad statement but for LV electrical work an electrical licence will be necessary.
competent person—
a person who has acquired through training, qualification, experience, or a
combination of these, the knowledge and skills enabling that person to
perform the tasks required by this National Standard
Are we going to get a book going as to the result??
Are there standards, codes and regulations in which it would be a wise thing to follow and adhere to, legally speaking, or not when doing electrical work on boats at an extra low voltage level ie below 120Vdc??
My money is on YEP!!
Who's going to go nope??
Oldboot I assume is nope??
I intend on living for-ever....so far so good
Scott, I did my restricted Electrical at Wally World back in 1995, Used it maybe half a dozen times back then. I would need a serious refresher to get it out and start working under it again
Garry
Retired Honda Master Tech
even the regulations on the 240V stuff are a joke...not just on boats.
A restricted Electrical ticket will only allow you to disconnect and reconnect 240v AC it does not allow you to run any cable.
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