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There must have been no SBT, Yellowfin or other high value species around at the time for them to bother.Originally Posted by yalta
My comments on this issue come from what i have been told by a mate who ran a longliner for many years. I haven't said at any stage that longliners WON'T target marlin, they do and will continue to do so. However, as I have been told, they won't if there are higher value fish to be caught.
No one has to agree with me, it is an open forum and free world.
Good luck out there.
Cheers,
Myles
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Are you saying ecofishers support the re-introduction of beach-hauling of salmon or just b-h in general? If it's the last, that'd be against all they stand for wouldn't it?
I'd agree with the re-introduction of netting aus-salmon, if it'd take the pressure off the tailor fishery so there are more left for us plebs with rods to try and catch. Lord knows, it's hard enough to find them at the best of times.
Only problem with allowing the netting of salmon, is that they will spook the other species in the process. Without knowing the ins and outs of what netting takes place where in NSW, then its hard for me to know how this would work.
Anyway, back to netting on Teewah Beach ....
The surf is still barren of fish. Have heard of a flathead caught and saw 2 undersized tailor kept by 3 guys that fished all night and the next day for them. Not a little dart to be seen anywhere.
But there is now a concerted effort by quite a few to do something about this. Sunfish Fraser Coast and myself are collaborating on the matter with Bruce Alvey once again doing wonderful things for the rec community on the issue. Chris Ryan and I have been communicating and I am hopeful that Ecofishers Qld will come on board. There is quite a lot more happening also, but would be best if I wait and see how things transpire over the next week or so before releasing any details.
But of great importance is that the rec fishing public get behind the good work being done to assist the relevant Ministers to make decisions in our favour. We will attempt to, as soon as possible, create mechanisms whereby everybody can have an input. I'd like to see petitions at tackle shops, on this website and others and any other likely location. I invite any persons reading this that feel that they might be able to assist us in any shape or form to email me at ldines@bigpond.net.au or phone 0419773137
Cheers
Lindsay
Lindsay, spent Sat/SUnday at Teewah camping and saw 4 fish caught. 2 choppers and a small dart Sat arvo and a flathead Sunday morning. We were just at the start of the camping area at the bottom end of the beach. I think, though, Saturday was down to the beach being totally devoid of any features at all with only about 3 gutters/holes with any hint of promise. Sunday was a different story with heaps more wave action and more features opening up. Likely why the netters were able to do well Sunday as Saturday had nothing that looked like it'd really hold fish.
Now that's the thing isn't it - for a lot of years now I've heard people put the poor fishing down to one factor or another. Lack of gutters, bad tides, bad weather, no wave action, too much wave action, too much fresh, too clear and a heap of other reasons. And once upon a time I used to as well. But the surf should not be totally barren as it currently is and often is during the netting season. There should be small dart on the edge of the channel all the way along the beach. But I can't see one.
But because all of these people only come up for a weekend or week every now and then, they don't get to make comparisons from day to day, week to week, year to year as I've been fortunate enough to be able to do over a period of decades.
And of course other factors come into play, but when netting is occurring, the fish just ALL move elsewhere - they've been spooked. They start to return after a few days or a week or 2, and then the pros wrap a net around another school and they're gone again. It is the vocalisations from the netted fish and secondary transfer of vocalisations combined with the release of chemical pheremones that causes what is KNOWN as 'area abandonment' - self explanatory really.
Bruce Alvey was telling me yesterday how he sent the article I wrote for the Fishing World website a few weeks ago on the 'permit massacre', to an old friend of his that was once a beach netter and then rec fisher. Bruce said that his friend rang him after reading the article which talks about these factors, all excited and saying that he knew there had to be something like that going on. He said it doesn't matter what species are in the net, all the other fish take off. And this is what I've been trying to tell the world since my first QFM articles on the subject in 2005.
Netting buggers rec fishing! No ifs or buts - it is just simply the case.
I know that I haven't gone into detail about how it all works precisely in the last couple of years on Ausfish and nor have I in my QFM articles. And perhaps it's time I did for all of the newer members that haven't read any of this stuff. But the stuff I am talking about involving fish vocalisations, plays a role in everybodies fishing whether nets are involved or not.
Like the title of my very first Fishing Monthly article in 2005 was titled - 'Fish Do Talk". I wanted it to be with - 'And They're Not Waiting Around For A Reply' afterwards - but that would have been too long.
So later, when I have some time, I'll go into some detail about the entire netting scenario and fish vocalisations for those that haven't heard this before.
Lindsay
Yes 4X4, regarding Ecofishers I meant beach-hauling in general, and I agree entirely with your sentiments, although I don't profess to know 'what they stand for'.
I would far, far rather see beach-haulers bought out at a price advantageous to the current licence-holders, but if that doesn't happen, why not target salmon?
As Slider maintains, beach-hauling will, apart from any other issues, spook fish whatever the target species.
Cheers.
Commercial catch of tailor is limited by fisheries to 120 tonnes. Not sure what the Rec. take is but it is much higher than this according to fisheries figures. Which i can track 'down if anyone is intersted. So in terms of the commercial guys being a sustainability issue we really must look at oursevles. Some people probly have a problem with me saying this but at least theres some fact to how much tailor is being taken out of the water by who. I think it just causes a bother seeing so many fish caught at one spot at one time.
Also people make the fisherman out to be stupid and not looking after the fish. Any one in the business of fishing obviously has markets set up for there fish, these guys have been on the beaches for generations. It's not hard to get the fish on a truck to briso, sydney or melbourne to feed the masses.
arrr no, id rather go catch my own fresh tailor, which i wont be doing this season....Unless you are happy to live on crap imported seafood for the rest of your life
Lindsay..a quesiton on the fish vocalisation.
If the fish send out danger signals when in a net...why don't they when they are being caught in great numbers on lines. eg. blokes standing shoulder to shoulder on fraser and catching large amounts of tailor.
And a good question Greg, thank you. But it can't be answered with a short response - I would need to write a 3000 word essay. I'd like everyone to realise also that there are a heap of variables with a heap of different species of fish that have different behavioural traits that can't be lumped into one basket. There are distinct similarities, but there are differences as well. The following is a bit of a generalisation.
They do in fact vocalise their distress - all hooked fish do. But there is varying levels of distress and there are also varying situations that the fish are in, that affect the response of the other fish.
It seems - and I don't profess to know what the fish are thinking - that individual fish emitting alarm vocalisations on their own, have minimal impact on the other fish. Probably similar to a shark taking an individual fish which has minimal affect on the other fish. Perhaps in their world of larger fish or sharks regularly taking one of their conspecifics (mates), that they don't think too much about it. Bit like a lion taking a wilderbeast - the other wilderbeast make sure they don't get caught by the lion, but once their mate's down, they happily start grazing again. And fish aren't as intelligent as wilderbeast. But a net takes tonnes at a time and this is the absolute worst case scenario for fish which they have learnt over time to avoid for the sake of their species. The worlds fish stocks have largely been depleted by nets.
Analogies would be snapper, red emperor and other reefies that are sharked on the way to the surface. You can drop again and hook up again and be sharked again, but the fish don't necessarily disappear.
Then to look at the scenario, of 100 anglers side by side at Fraser all catching tailor. It's still only say 30 or 40 fish being taken at the same time that are all emitting alarm vocalisations, but there is also a hell of a lot of feeding excitement amongst the tailor with both the prey that drew them to that gutter in the first place, plus all the pilchards and bits of, that are floating around. This generally seems to keep them on the chew.
Or, the tailor are spawning which is such an instinctively strong thing for them to do, and the trauma isn't sufficient enough to force them away from such an important thing for them to do. If they took off mid spawn, then the recruitment from that spawning will be very unsuccessful. But a net around the whole spawning school is another matter altogether.
But, and I've struck this countless times with tailor, if there is 1 or several guys spinning lures or using baits and someone drops a tailor before it is brought over the edge of the gutter, then the school often spooks and is gone. This is especially the case with greenbacks. But strangely, if you catch and release the fish - has been brought past the edge of the gutter and separated from his mates that generally hang with the hooked fish - then the fish don't spook. Calmness of conditions is another variable in this situation - the calmer it is, the easier they spook. Probably because the vocalisations are heard more easily without the ambient sound of waves breaking to 'muffle' the vocalisation of the hooked fish. Snapper are again a good analogy - if you release the fish straight back down, the snapper can spook. Many snapper fishers won't release the caught fish straight away because of that and will keep it alive in the boat for release later when the bite has slowed.
On the presence of food preventing fish from spooking - in the Solomons, the Japanese targeting bluefin tuna found that following hauls of tuna in their nets, they couldn't find other schools to net because they've spooked and taken off. So they started netting shoals of baitfish and dumping them over the side which they found reversed the spooking affect and they were able to get further shots. Of course, now their running out of baitfish and tuna.
So it is the volume of fish that are taken in a net that causes large scale spooking. And fish spooked by nets seem to travel far greater distances away from the origin of their trauma, than fish spooked by individual captures - even if there are a few hundred captures over a period of say half an hour. 4 tonne of tailor would have in the order of 1000 plus fish, all taken in one fell swoop, with each fish vocalising extreme alarm.
Also - mature fish are smarter than immature fish and have learnt to avoid major traumas more quickly than juveniles. Bream are the classic example of this scenario that most anglers would be aware of.
I hope that answers the question Greg, but please don't hesitate to pick me up on any point as I can clarify further if necessary
So not much of that goes into the basis of the theories associated with vocalisations and nets. I'll have some dinner and get to that afterwards.
Out of my curious about netters on Teewah Beach...
Is this beach allowed net on all seasons? does it close then when?
Is there time restrict netting?
Is there boundary on the beach for netter to operate?
Sorry there are so many "is"
anyway make it simple questions...
Just had 46 photographs of the netted permit sent to me - heartbreaking stuff.
Fish vocalisations:
All fish vocalise - but at a lower frequency to that of dolphins and whales. Most by drumming muscles against their swim bladder which amplifies the sound - like a drum. When I last checked, over 700 species around the world had been recorded on hydrophones since 1964 and their vocalisations placed on a database. Of those species, some have had as many as 9 different vocalisations recorded. In Australia, only the black jew and garfish have been recorded - as far as I know. But many species found in Australian waters are found elsewhere and some of which have been recorded - including mullet.
Sound in water travels at five times the speed that it does in air and for far greater distances. A humpback in Antarctic waters can be heard by other humpbacks at the equator providing there is no land in between.
Yellowfin tuna have been recorded on hydrophones from distances of 65km with the size of the fish determinable and also whether it is feeding or spawning.
So when fish are trapped in a net, each fish emits an alarm vocalisation. Fish outside of the net relay this alarm on to fish further away, which in turn is relayed on to fish further away again and so on. This is known as 'secondary transfer'.
I have seen on a few occasions a situation that tells a very distinct story -
Mullet being netted by beach seiners while multiple mackerel and tuna schools are visible from shore feeding on the surface on australian anchovy. When the mullet begin to panic and are visible splashing, the mackerel and tuna instantly disappear (all of them) and are not seen again for weeks. Some of these schools are kilometres from the net. You can still see the bait schools after the pelagics have gone.
Another one that happens occasionally - have been spinning up tailor in a gutter and every retrieve gets a strike - and on Sliders they generally are beached
I've seen the same thing in Lake Cootharaba from Teewah Landing - a net shot probably a kilometre away - fish almost instantly are bolting to under the jetty and into the reeds around me.
These are examples that I've seen first hand that proved to me beyond all reasonable doubt that nets spook fish in a very big way. But I have had a lot to do with an awful lot of netting and have been exposed to an awful lot of examples. The most common is that fish are being caught from the beach by various anglers in various locations up and down the beach. Then a net is shot and all of a sudden nobody is catching anything other than flathead for the next week. Of course the flathead go under the nets.
But sometimes there is a huge amount of bait inshore and that sometimes brings predator species back after just a few days. But it didn't when we had massive shoals of pilchards along the entire length of Teewah Beach a couple of weeks ago which made the news. Aerial footage showed a few tuna and plenty of sharks, but there were no tailor around any of those schools - I spun slugs through heaps of them over a period of weeks for 1 chopper.
There are still pilchard schools down there and still no tailor at the height of their spawning migration. The pros are cruising up and down for the first schools to come back in and unless your johny on the spot and lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time, then we have no chance.
Tailor are the first spookers and they stay away the longest. Dart are stupid and come back first.
I could go on and on about this whole deal, but how much info does one need?
Anyone can get on the net and punch in 'soniferous fish' or 'net avoidance' or 'fish vocalisations' and see the massive quantity of secondary evidence. Nobody has proven the theory categorically, but a Frenchman by the name of Patrice Brehmer will before long - punch in his name and see what comes up. Patrice told me that my theories mirror his nearly exactly and he's been studying this exact circumstance for over 11 years.
This situation with fish vocalisations goes far beyond what I've written above.
Steve Starling told me that he expects to be able to locate jewfish in an estuary by using a hydrophone that will tell him where they are. And one day he most certainly will be able to. Attracting fish schools using recorded vocalisations of prey species played through speakers into the water is something that is already happening. In fact it was done near Lizard Island about 5 years ago and is being throughly researched today for commercial applications. It starts to get scary.
But on the other side of the scale is the currently used method of assessing fish stocks by using static and mobile hydrophones that can tell the listener how many fish are in a school and whether they are spawning. This will allow commercial fisheries to target species that have had a chance to spawn. It's in use now and has been for several years.
Not convinced that I know what I'm talking about yet - you've got to be kidding!
Silent - glad you asked.
The mullet netting season (K8 license - 17 of) commences May 1st and goes til August 31. They are allowed to net from 400m north of the Noosa River mouth to Inskip Point and anywhere in between. They net the hell out of the lagoon at D.I. That's when the N1's start netting tailor til usually mid November when they head to the river for prawns.
So there is NO closed season from netting and NO closed areas.
Everyone should be very aware that everything that happens on these beaches also happens at Sandy Cape which buggers the fishing to as far south as Indian Head.
The pro that nets at Sandy Cape works it something like this - he nets at the southern end of Teewah Beach where the fish are now spooked with 1 to 2 weeks before they return. He then flies to the top end of Teewah Beach - as far away from the previous netting s possible - and nets there and spooks the fish for 1 to 2 weeks. He then heads to Sandy Cape and nets the northern side and eastern side of and spooks the fish for 1 to 2 weeks there. He then heads to the Noosa river and nets there and spooks the fish in that vicinity for 1 to 2 weeks. By that stage the fish are returning to the southern end of Teewah Beach and starts the circuit again.
Now - the pros noticed in the mid 90s that they were spooking the fish and when each license was working separately, they were spooking each others fish. so they combined resources to coincide their netting times so that they wouldn't spook each others fish. At the same time they emplyed the use of spotter planes because the mullet had learnt to head directly out from the noosa River to avoid the nets waiting 400m up the beach - the direction they must go to spawn. the mullet would head out to sea and then come back in further up the beach and the spotter plane could tell them where they were coming in.
Since 2001 we have had algal blooms every year that bugger us as much as the nets do.The surf zone utrifies (deoxygenates) and the fish can't breath in it. the blooms have been arriving the last 3 years in Sep/Oct and last until March/April depending on low pressure systems which pulverise the algae which then washes on to the beach.
Therefore we anglers have realistic chances of fishing the beach without outside influences for maybe a few weeks or a couple of moths only each year. And that doesn't take into account bad weather that doesn't allow for surf fishing.
Good stuff hey?
Thanks Slider,
Ummm... not a good looking for my trip to DI next month, anyway I already booked accommodation nearby but I'll see what I can catch...
Cheers for informations we aware of Pro netters on Teewah beach...
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