Reply With QuoteOriginally Posted by matt fraser
Glad you brought that up Matt.
I was watching it with my kids and told the kids that they would be DQED in a bream comp.
They just thought I was cranky because I can't catch big fish.
Mick
Jelousy is a curse isnt it.
Only if we caught as many barra as those guys could we trial that techinique, Have you actually used the techiniques the Taylor Boys do Nagg? If not its no position for you to critcise there success.
Its a funny world, if people succeed at such a level they still get shitcanned and tried to be bought back to the level of the critic.
mmmmm cheers Lachy
P.S Not enough time to reply to JM nagg?
Glad you brought that up Matt.
I was watching it with my kids and told the kids that they would be DQED in a bream comp.
They just thought I was cranky because I can't catch big fish.
Mick
Hi Chris
I did not see the mondy round but i see it is on sat on channel HD1 at 11.30 am and will try to watch it, however that said i seen the Awoonga round and i thought the same as you that they kept setting the hook up to 6-8 times i noticed and raced the fish to the boat ,i am only a plodder at this game but to me i thought they were rushing the fish to the net however i think we only see the edited version of the show so i do not know how long they played the fish for and as you have said they are the tops in there field and must do something right to get the results and i think your comments were fair and you even gave them there dues as fisherman so why are you getting hammered for your opionon you i think were just putting out here what a few people were thinking but had not said and you admitted they were the best in the field so how is that shitt caning them
shane
I dont bother here much anymore..
A new year and the same old crap.So called "Mondy crew" vs. the guides and fellow associated scribes.
What really gets achieved-narry much..
If you really want some rain on a parade,here goes...
"Mondy crew"pls all get an account on MSN,then u can chat beers,twisted leaders,braid colour and "to the shed..." as you want without taxing a forum where it feels now days if you are not part of the "crew",your opinion matters not.
To JM and co.-is it really worth your time banging your head against the wall so much here??
Let me say it,if you want no bullshit barra info/chat,head to sweetwater.com.au,
carefully constructed replies from some real anglers at the forefront...
Just my observations,I truly mean not to offend.But this freshwater section is really not what it used to be anymore.
The slanging matches are most tiresome...I have strapped on the helmet,I'm sure the missiles will be thick and fast.
Cheers Mick,
No missiles here.
For the second hand stuff that unfortunately goes on, I do think it is worth it that info gets out to those who wish you use it. Those that do use it grow- those that don't, go nowhere fast. It would be a bit backward if we let the path get lost in the undergrowth. I'm happy to cop a few slaps for those who want real info that helps. Where would we all be without it- still casting blue lures at mango trees.
I hear your sentiments loud and clear!
'Sweetwater', they actually confessed to barra overlaod syndrome, so I'm resting the place at present. I'd hang up my boots- but I do have a sincere wish to advance us all a lot further before I let go of any reins. Mick, I have future plans, and this info doesn't just fade away into a wordy mess in the back drop. It comes to life, eventually, and those that use it, excell. That on it's own is a positive for my efforts.
Thanks.
John M
Lachy ...... mate , I dont have a jealous bone in my body - so none of my comments come from that stand point......... so you can leave that one alone
Shitcanned hey .......I have the utmost respect for the lads & stated my admiration -
I made observations ...... & put it out there - and I dont think its without substance ( I hope you never bag a league player , referee or coach next time you see something is not to your liking)...... At least I'm out there trying to compete against them. Unfortunately for me I have to do it as a part time amature .
As for trying the go hard or go home technique ........ too right I tried it - It cost me my 5th fish during the Mondy ABT event - A 90cm fish boatside in 30 sec ....... Unfortunately my fish jumped as the line touched the prop .......... but I know at what point I stuffed up....... when I sniffed a potential win
I actually said at the time .... it probably cost me
Chris
PS - JMs reply was to be expected ..... after all he is their mentor & coach .......
.......
Give a man a fish & he will eat for a day !
Teach him how to fish
& he will sit in a boat - & drink beer all day!
TEAM MOJIKO
Yes Mick .... you are doing exactly what you detest.
I'm not one for blowing sunshine up someones skirt ........ just because of their stature .....Offering a differing opinion / observation should promote a healthy discussion - unfortunately at times people are star struck & cant see beyond the words of wisdom spoken by their idol .
As for carefully constructed replies ....... do you mean not wanting to offend the glitterati -
Mondy crew ........ please dont offend us- more information is shared here than any other web site ( people receive real world help)
Chris
Give a man a fish & he will eat for a day !
Teach him how to fish
& he will sit in a boat - & drink beer all day!
TEAM MOJIKO
Johnny ....... we are fortunate to have you as a participant here on Ausfish ..... respected & admired .
Hopefully you take things the right way when challenged or questioned ......... As we all know - seeing something from another angle can be just as enlightening .I will never forget my novice brother introducing me to pilchards when fishing for Mulloway ( despite my efforts in securing live squid & slimy mackerel ) ......... I ended up catching more fish when I let go of my ego / years of experience & beliefs
Chris
Give a man a fish & he will eat for a day !
Teach him how to fish
& he will sit in a boat - & drink beer all day!
TEAM MOJIKO
Hi Shane
After more than several emails / pms & phone calls - this stuff had to get out there .......... I presented an opinion for sure - with no disrespect.
some people cant handle when there idols receive a negative review. ( I thought highly of Peter Brock ..... till he came up with the Ioniser )
Australia just won the 2nd test against Pakistan ...... but Ricky Ponting IMO still made a total cock up by electing to bat first on a rare Sydney green top ( in those conditions)....... good luck rather than good management saw Australia win . I said it at the toss ...... & after the win)
chris
Give a man a fish & he will eat for a day !
Teach him how to fish
& he will sit in a boat - & drink beer all day!
TEAM MOJIKO
Nagg thread
Hi Nagg I try to see where you are coming from, you disagree with a lot the Taylors do, for the second year in a row, you had pages like this last year as well.
Your posts regarding the Taylors come across like a dose of Tall Poppy Syndrome, like you want to really, really be the tournament champion, at all costs.
It looks like you are looking at things from the point of view of a Half Deflated Goon bag, or A glass half empty of Stones Green Ginger, when I see opportunity to learn, like the page of learning points I listed last year in this exact same debate regarding AFC footage, yet you always seem to concentrate on the negative aspect of the Taylors fishing and add in 10% positive to cover your ass mate.
I agree and disagree with you on many points, but i’m glad you put up your opinion, I’ll put up mine now and I’ll try to keep it to just agree or disagree with a different way to look at things, you have had a big say on the sporting strategies used, now I’ll add a bit and hopefully trigger a few thoughts and ideas for everyone to use when on the water next.
Yep ..... these 2 rounds (Mondy & Awoonga) made for some of the best viewing to date ......
The AFC footage will hopefully promote our fishing opportunities for a great Aussie lifestyle to be enjoyed by all. I agree with you here Nagg.
certainly entertaining I agree as well.
Now ... without wanting to sound like an armchair expert & critic.
I know you are not trying to come across like this Nagg, but with the way you write it will be hard for you not to be known as Nagg the internet guru in the future, it’s just the way you write that’s all, lucky you have the choice to change.
- My observations are somewhat different than some of the recent comments.
I agree again, but it’s just that within any thinking thread you seem to miss so much helpful fish catching information, and do it time and time again, then block up any learning thread which makes smart fisho's want to leave this site and the net.
I certainly want to watch both events again for the entertainment value / enjoyment
I agree and it’s good to appreciate good work. Which will have mistakes as everyone looks at things from a different angle.
...... but also review some of the stuff that had me a little bemused at the time
We all get bemused on impoundment barra at times, they can be so hard to catch consistently. But a better method Nagg is to try and take ego out of the equation and understand what makes the Taylors better than you or I, then we can set some sort of game plan to improve.
Examples I like the fact that you took the time to watch the footage and provide examples which are nearly all negative. Glass half empty again. The point is, what are they doing that you aren’t that enables them to catch more fish, glass half full stuff to progress our angling into the future. A plan etc.
Multiple strikes Which continued right to the boat Sure we all know of the importance of setting the hook ...... once , twice , three or four times. However the constant yanking on the line would surely increase the rate that the puncture hole would open at that point - certainly making it easier for the hook to simply fall out at any moment of lost pressure ( 2 fish were lost at the boat) - 1 hook appeared to just fall out
Green fish Turning a fish rapidly or disorientating a fish by constantly changing rod angles is a great way to fight a fish in the initial stages - Once turned & with then some semblance of control we play the fish out before leading the fish to the net -
but bringing a fish to the boat in a green state is asking for trouble - a rampaging fish in & around motors is bound to end up in heartache at some stage
In sport there are a couple of ways to look at this. Does a guy who has just taken a mark on the 50m line turn around, react, not think, then kick at goal using instinct. It’s been shown a surprisingly high percentage of these goals are kicked.
Or
Does he take the mark, walk back and take some time with the kick, increasing that little voice in the head (Don’t miss it you will look like an idiot on TV). With this the pressure increases and it’s amazing how many times we see set shots missed in AFL, even from right in front. Would this person have been better off acting on instinct? As they have done this a thousand times before.
Just like the Taylors landing a fish, if it’s next to the boat, put it in the net, or do we take another 3 minutes to land it, risking a couple more jumps, head shakes, gill rake exposure, structure exposure which could still result in a lost fish.
Cricket: Those deliveries wide of off stump let go by Shane Watson yesterday when he was In, could have been hit for 4, but in the 90’s he chose to let them go. A Carefull approach. He gave the bowler more opportunities to get him out, by letting the bowlers have more deliveries (chances) to get him out, like letting barra swim, jump and jerk around for another 2-3 minutes.
Kids Clear Thinking: If you bowl a cricket ball at a kid, and the kid has a bat in his hand, he swings it to hit the ball doesn’t he?… He doesn’t stand there for 5 minutes letting balls go and then decides to hit one. He just reacts to the moment.
Throw a kid a basketball, he has a shot at the hoop, then another, he just acts naturally. Does he wait 4 or 5 minutes to shoot? No, I’ve never seen that. About every 10 seconds would be closer to the mark.
Landing Fish
So we have a fish beside the boat, a landing net bigger than most coffee tables, the net is 1m from the fish, we need the fish in the net, and in the boat to score points to stay on the barra tour, if we come last we get relegated (kicked off next years series).
If the fish is next to the net, next to the boat, wouldn’t you just land it? If in your experience of catching thousands of fish, winning 4 years straight tournaments landing lots of fish, and 3 straight AFC wins & draw etc. Isn’t this just part of the recipe that has made the Taylors more successful than any other tournament angler in the ABT & AFC series?
And if it was a mistake or the landing could have been better, hell it might just have been one of those spur of the moment decisions while on TV.
Who made the romantic technique of fighting a fish till it can’t move, gently, gently, softly, softly like a scene from Blades of Glory, it floats up (the fish) like froth on a beer, sits there on the bar (next to boat) then is grabbed in a slow controlled manner by professional experts, hugged, kissed then released.
A mixture of Sport, Animals and TV scenes rarely work out to be that easy.
History: This topic dates back to 2006, and is still being talked about. I guess things just haven’t clicked. People thought it was mind blowing back then, lots didn’t’ understand the concept or strategy. Johnny Mitchell has a line in fish Awoonga while all those rods are in the shot.
It pays to understand the workings of your gear, rather than just owning it. (2006)
It’s 2010 now, isn’t it?
Food for thought.
Cheers Lyndon
Here is a good reply from the Taylors when Nagg questioned them about AFC in 2009.
Hi Chris,
There was quite a lot of fish lost during the Monduran AFC round. With the solid, fast fish & scattered timber it was always going to be a tricky-to-land type tournament.
The high rod angles & upward pressure were used to make the barramundi jump while leading them away from the standing & laydown timber which was abundant.
There were also some stumps under the surface which were found in the prefish and getting the fish in the air and keeping them from tangling & rubbing off on any timber was the idea.
This technique is usually effective at Peter Faust Dam on fish around timber although in the AFC event at Monduran the fish didn't want to jump! They did on some of the open water captures but most of them were running hard under the surface. The fish just didn't follow the plan!
It would have been a good idea to change the tactic earlier and possibly gone to free-spooling but that's fishing! It was a fun episode to watch though!
Thanks,
Cy & Kerrin Taylor
Whitsundays QLD
Off topic but one thing I did notice about the Taylors was their ability to lighten up and become more talkative.
I think the chance to fish together and have that familiarity in the team has shown the boys in a different light. Nice one. It appeared that they were very relaxed and it was just another day in the office. A good side of the sport to see that’s for sure.
Cheers
Lee
Over use of negative qualifiers and emoticons I'd say Shane. They throw a shade of malignancy over the questions and statements which if worded better would have been good discussion points. Unfortunately that probably won’t happen.so why are you getting hammered for your opionon
As an example read the post again and picture the 'roll eyes' in an actual conversation in a number of senarios. From a mate they'd most likely be fine, from someone you're not sure of they could unsettle you or you might end up feeling a bit hostile about them. The wink at the end does not help either. Pity, could have gone somewhere but was doomed from inception.
Here are a couple of interesting replies from JM with regards to leaders and fish fighting, catching and finesse. This should atleast keep this a learning thread, i hope you enjoy the read.
I've changed some text colour and highlighted a few points to hopefully make it easier for some great points to stand out, it can only help, atleast i have tried to find & post good info, take JM's tips, use them or argue, your choice. JM's work is in Black & Red, my comments are in Blue.
This was written last year in reply to the 2009 AFC thread Nagg started.
One point- the majority of leading barra anglers do not use twisted leaders. Single straight mono leaders or light wire for some is the first port of call.
A barra must be hooked before it can be lost. We could all use heavier, ugly twisteds and reduce chafe offs but that on its own is the major limiting factor that reduces strike rate initially. If you can't hook any fish, you certainly can't be chaffed off. The name of barra angling is to find a happy medium that allows finesse lure presentation on a leader that will allow fairly good chafe guard. In extremes, 80lb mono isn't good enough; neither is 100lb.
The Taylor guns have excelled in the lure presentation department and have accellerated in fish nous and tactical play. High rod angles are an important roll in some barra captures; much to the opposed thoughts of mainstream media.
Low rod angles will not stop a barra that 'needs' to jump. They jump to rid a lure that is stuck inside the mouth or in situations where the lure impedes their mouth from closing neatly, regardless of rod angle in most cases. Also, allowing a large barra to jump tires a fish and allows an angler to keep better control of a fish much higher in the water column. A fish high in the water column is a fish that is now not thinking of cover or dirty snag tactics. Messing with their head is an art.
Chafe offs are a sad fact, and learning when to soften the firm approach is also another skill that comes with a kazillion barra captures. The Taylors are highly developed anglers with plenty for us all to learn from.
Cheers
Johnny Mitchell
If twisted leaders were a fish catching improvement there would be many more anglers using them. When we look at ABT results for hours fished for fish boated it becomes very ugly. ( Yes, I know , not everyone is/was using twisteds).
In the existing lake barra fisheries that vary from around 10-25+ yrs old, there is little clue needed to be dropped that lure presentation is near the top of the list of must do's in pressured waterways. Starting with rigging, there does need to be a lot of refinement from anglers if they wish to lift their catch rates, especially in the likes of ABT events with horribly frightening figures of hours fished per barra landed.
Stats show that if an angler landed less than 1 fish per round of event they would end up in the top ten overall. That is a bit scarey when it is broken down to about one barra landed roughly every 10 hours in competition time.
I believe it is time anglers took another road when it comes to connecting fish to lines,,,,especially when it counts. (This is the point that so many seem to be closed minded towards e.g. change, or thinking a different way, outside their own Square. Hence the arguements over the last few years, when all JM was trying to do is help, many should have listened instead of argueing).
It might be time for the good old aussie way of mates telling some of their mates to pull their head in, we want to hear the good information, not have it stuffed around or driven away every time a thought provoking topic is started.
For bad to succeed it only takes good men to do nothing. JFK.
If the fishing is easy, fencing wire on your lure will hook barra and we don't think twice about questioning our rigging, or our lure. When it is tough, or touchy, leader choice, lure balance and advanced lure presentation will help no end.
If ya mate beside you is catching none also we don't automatically have to think it is a tough day. (This is a legendary line)
Harro- light wire leaders.
Wilhelm- single mono or fine wire the last time I looked.
Myself- single mono.
Taylors- single mono.
3 out of these 5 anglers are guides who need to put clients onto barra in less than 5-6 hrs, amongst teaching anglers to cast and to retrieve.
The other two are ranked one and two in the country.
Other key variables are at play, but a coincidence with leader choice stands well clear. We can all take our own track, but I wouldn't bother typing this if it wasn't to paint a helpful picture. Sometimes stats and future prognosis needs to displayed. Our fisheries won't get easier, we need to adapt to what is being created.
Johnny
When we talk lure presentation most individuals think of what they normally do each trip to try to catch fish. What I mean by finesse lure presentation is what is done by the highly tuned in angler that achieves much more than anglers who adopt reasonably straight forward cast, wind, jiggle techniques, especially with soft plastics. When the 'finesse' word is examined and matched to the finely tuned lures that the Taylor's use to win these competitions there becomes a new level that seperates the simple talk on what Harry, Paul, Joe or Jim catches with what technique or rigging system.
Taking into consideration that they have a very particular standard of what they call a tuned lure compared to what 99% of anglers use. It's off track to comment on the finnesse of angling until it really is understood on the grounds of higher skill level.
In this situation where a 'fine delivery of a lure' is essential in creating the strike in conditions where a massive portion of the field struggle to even land one fish, one must realise that the purpose of single strand leaders is by far a superior delivery tool than a twisted leader with the lure choice for Cy and Kerrin.
Subtle differences make all the difference.
It really is only in competition time or when times are tough when the subtleties stand well clear of 'normal, basic and common techniques.
In my opinion, if you are fishing with a twisted leader you are supressing your ability to produce better results on the average day on a highly pressured barra dam.
johnny
Last edited by SeekingBarradise; 07-01-2010 at 11:19 AM. Reason: Highlighting some helpfull tips in the article
Here is my reply to last years post, seems appropriate here as we are nearly talking about the exact same stuff again. I looked for mainly positives, to learn from the footage and better anglers than me, like the Taylor Brothers.
We watched the program at the Monduran caravan park on the weekend with a few barra fisho's. There was a drag that sounded like my boat trailer winch. But there were also drags that sounded sweetly tuned like like a formula 1 machine.
How many missed this?
How many spotted this?
I've only watched this once and i'm sure after the 40th time there will be a good list up and running.
Leader: I used a twisted leader and had a nice fish fight on the weekend, but found the sensations coming back through the rod off-putting. There were distracting vibrations compared to the single strand and good feel of straight 80lb leader. I also had wind on leaders which were ok if they were not too long. I went back to single strand after fighting this barra because the sensation (lack of feel) coming back up the rod felt like shit.
I'll give them another go during a hot bite to see if this was a one off.
Positives: A major fault of many members on the net is that so much good info is just skipped over, time and time again. (Not by everyone) I've been guilty myself, that's for sure.
Another fault is that 2000 (january) people have read this thread but only a few interacted.
It's like watching reality tv. Not good if we want to learn.
With a combined 5000 plus days spent on freshwater the guys being filmed have thousands of tips for all of us to use and improve our own fishing. If we have the radar on to spot the tips?
Ask yourself honestly.
How many tips did i spot the first time i watched the show?
Was i going to make the effort to watch it again?
If not why?
Is my goal to improve my barra fishing?
A few smart blokes i know have a list of tips from last years series and have been working on improving their game with those valuable tips in the last 12 months. They also took notes on non competition dvd's to improve their barra fishing.
How many of us on here did that? Mark honestly.
If not why?
Another smart bloke on the weekend noticed a lost fish from too much pressure, & it even looked like thumb pressure. The dvd will have to be watched again as it all happened quickly.
Last years series: Another bloke noticed a fishing partner change his position of tools/body to that of a barra angler for better triggering, striking and fish fighting outcomes. He is a smart guy and had an open mind. Hats of to him for not having an ego and adapting and learning from anyone and everyone.
It's probably only fair that if we make comment about these guys on this thread that we post up a couple of positives as well, because there is so much good info just skipped over for the next best thing.
To think or not to think? The next best thing is easy to predict. Think about what will be released this year around mid year. It's easy as they prey on dumb people skipping over good info. They will be lures and plastics that we can touch and feel and buy. Not a lot of thinking info is released. And the stuff that is gets skipped over a lot.
Info like that AFC show on the weekend which was packed with tips & a few other non competition dvd's and presentations getting around that are not used enough in my opinion.
Lets see. Did you take detailed notes of the areas that were fished?
What stood out as a fishy area and why?
What areas looked less than fishy and why?
Wind direction at the time of fishing or lack of?
Features of the area or lack of?
Sun, Cloud, Current, Layout and temps?
Water quality or lack of?
Weed, Bait, Birdlife, animal life or lack of?
Positioning of the boats? Casting angles?
Position: Body position, rod angles, hand position, strike position, rod techniques, plastics and lures used (that were shown).? Keep a lateral mind for what wasn't shown as they had limited time to make the show and sponsored products would have to get the first run on tv as they spent a lot of coin to get there. Without the sponsors the show wouldn't be on.
Did you notice some teams work better than others? Ask yourself why, then apply it to your own fishing?
Who had a outstanding fish finding & triggering ability? Why? Add up all the points you think had a bearing on fish triggering ability?
We can even learn from guys that did it hard or didn't catch fish.
What were the differences in approaches?
Did they attract fish but not hook them?
It might have been a hard day and attracting fish might have been very hard. Maybe there were tips there for us to use as well, not from those that just caught fish. Often trips where we don't catch fish force us to think a lot more.
What tips did you get from those that did it hard or caught no fish?
Did you get these tips the first time you watched it?
Did you know the tips were there before i put the questions/observations up on the net? If not why?
Food For Thought: When thinking about all this consider this. Every few hours the Taylors trigger and usually catch barra on lakes. So do guides, they train clients to catch fish in 1-2-3-4-5-6 hours in daylight hours. Some of these clients have never fished or fished for barra before. Tallies have been more than 20 fish in daytime hours, and double figure metre barra in winter.
Do you do this on your trips at percentages above 80-90%?
In less than 5-6 hour sessions?
In all weather all year round?
Mark yourself harshly and honestly. I am the first to put my hand up and say " I don't do that well enough". I need to improve and have sited the skipping of good info as a major weekness. There are many more.
Now look at a few of these guys on tv, knowing that a few definately consistantly catch fish. Do most of us do that? (I'm not even close).
How many people have fish per hour ratio's of good guides and good barra fisho's? For me this is the exciting part, we can all learn more if we have the radar on and mark ourself honestly. We can learn from each other.
I fear all these guys hard work is being overlooked by the majority. When i say guys i mean people on and off TV. Even quiet achievers.
Helping each other to get better: Let's also use this thread to learn a few things. If we didn't have anything to learn that means we would have better fish finding, triggering and catching ability that Mitchell/Harro & the Taylors to name a few. I don't think this is the case for many of us.
The learning list is much bigger but i tried to keep this thread short and let others do some thinking & observing.
People can still post stuff they didn't like etc, but lets also take the time to slow down and do a bit of learning. Sound like a good idea?
I hope to see you on a barra dam one day for a bit of chilled out fishing, camping & learning.
Cheers Lyndon.
Attached Thumbnails - Click to enlarge
Here is the link to last years thread where Nagg reviews the Taylors.
http://www.ausfish.com.au/vforum/sho...d.php?t=144631
Last edited by SeekingBarradise; 07-01-2010 at 12:14 AM. Reason: Add a link to last years thread
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