Soft plastic modifications- or ditch it?

[NAGG]

Firstly ...... I , along with the rest of us Ausfishers that are interested in barra are appreciative of Johnnys input - ........ The fact is we probably want to read more of it
Unfortunately this particular thread left a little bitter after taste that was noted by a few of us ......... & certainly with regard to some of the replys.
I'm not here to defend Squidgy slick rigs - but the inference of the poor nature of these plastics got my back up - like most plastics something needs to be done with them ........... Enough said

On the subject of Storms ....... all is not rosey here either.
*The down grading of the hooks in the 6" shad ...... is criminal ( a good lure has been ruined in the name of profits. Dont buy the blister packs Attachment 50793Here is a jig head removed from a 6" shad - opened up by a mondy barra - compared to a 5" old swim shad ( never had a problem in 2 years)

*More & more there are distorted tails in the soft packs - here are 2 pkts of 4 & 5" that I have just opened. 25% & 33% have badly distorted tailsAttachment 50795Attachment 50796

*Storm Suspending Shad ..... False advertising ( 1 in about 4 do) - upgrade the treble & it sinks like a stone .

So as we can see - there are issues - The storm wildeye shad would be my favorite barra plastic .

Chris

PS .... Are the Taylors really that far ahead of us in their plastic modifications

[mr_yamba]

if you boil a slick rig then bite on it, you have a cheap mouth guard.

[anthony72]

There has been some amazing tips and opinions in this thread, and once again I read and reread the posts been made- I know no one here apart from Trev and a few others I fish alone but often, I chase barra two to three times a week and more often when work permits.

Even though some previous posts disagree or love certain lures- I mean some companies have in my opinion have gone over the top and i refuse to buy those lures now. Honestly some should supply lip stick with the lures they provide! These threads make me analyse and think about the lures I am using, how I am presenting them and what can I be doing differently to give me variation on the water.

50% of the time i use hollow bellys, storm plastics, usa bass platics and hybrid lures (most are storm tails.) I use storm suspending shads since the Jm dvds and have had great success on them when I am patient wth the retrieve.

Like most here I would love to know what the taylors do, success must leave clues but I also more focused on improving what I am doing now and working on the fundamentals. If Jm teahces them there is reasons why he gets us thinking about barra habits first.

I read Jm's first post and I read it as " it was how can we increase our catch without all the modifications." I for one have wasted 1000's of dollars cutting and joining, filling with silcone, cutting too much lead out etc and I know I have over complicated the lure presentation often. Even many hard bdoies I have ruined but working out ways to change and adjust my approach.

Back to original post- I have found another handy optionis the venom swimbait from the usa, it has an awesome heavy paddle tail with a very slim profile. Over late summer and now end of winter I have done very well slow rolling these over weed but they are expensive and one fish a lure type.

Finally just on plastics, anyone know the best way to "fill" the lure (slick rig or hollow belly) to make it a surface lure and float? I have heard locally this is a awesome method in the salt water top water presentation and I would love to know if anyone is doing this and more importantly how.

[TinarooTriumph]

Not coming to the aid of Storm lures here, but as far as 'quality' go's they are leading the way by miles. Take away hooks, weights, packaging and tails for a moment and look at the actual design of their plastics - immpecable. They must have been on an acid trip to come up with some of their designs.

Here is a helpful thread for those that havn't had a good look at Storm soft plastics. Note I am not sponsored by Storm, or anybody for that matter. Just a fan of buying good gear. I have had to modify quite a few different Storm plastics for the sole reason that I use to miss a lot of fish on them. Since modifying them they are landing more fish, are easier to cast and on the whole a much better lure.

http://www.stormlures.com/products/i...ype=soft_lures

One lure I have used and played with ALOT this year is the Storm Intense Kicking Shad. No, not the Swim Shad, the Intense Kicking Shad. The tails on these are about the best you'll find. Is there a downside? Yep... hooks are left wanting.

Note what Steve B posted before about the Kickin' Minnows. I have been using these at Tinaroo for nearly a year now with moderate results. A very hard to get lure... had to get my local sports store (Sports North) to order them direct from the US and 4 months later, whala!

No apologies if I left a sour note on things with my previous post to do with Slick Rigs. As a consumer (like we all are), I pay to purchase 'goods' and part of that money allows me to give feedback. The feedback given here is just as valid as sending an email to the big boys in the office - you'll be suprised who reads on this site. I for one am sick to death of Squidgy advertising and the fact that mates of mine who have never fished in their life see a soft plastic, point at it and go 'I know what that is, thats a Squidgy!'. I hope some good comes out of this.

Cheers all. Good time on the water to all.

Theo

[Steve B]

Theo,
I have to agree the Storm range has pretty well the best design, colour and overall ergenomics that I have seen from the 'generic' off the shelf in Oz lures.

I dont think there is a plastic on the market that has an adequate hook straight out of the packet.

Like you I am suprised they haven't brought the live kickin shad in to Oz..yet. they are awesome in the water.....they can be worked like a soft plastic, Taylor style with a drop and jig method too. I have aslo been using (and just imported because they are rare here atm) the wildeye pro paddle tail (bait'switch)...they have gone good (they are on the same link you posted). only used one for a while the other day for a hookup, dropped at the boat...the hooks that come with the pack seemed to hold up OK too, on a big fish...they are reasonably light, and have a good slow sink...not sure whether the tail flutters on the sink....I need to get to the pool again.

cheers Steve

[TinarooTriumph]

Steve,

Yep... got a pack of them as well. Funny what a little corner store (sports store) can get for you via the US. - Cairns Tackleworld looked at me funny when I announced what I wanted, where I wanted it from and when.

The eyes on that Paddle Tail Pro are as lifelike as anything out there. Nice roll to the plastic and good steady action. The hooks don't do much for me, but they can be changed.

Another goody I've got my hands on is one of the Live Stocker Trout (same configuration as the Suspending Storm... almost). Much thinner body which appealed to me awile back when I was missing alot of fish on the suspender. Only have the 1 of them now... scared to swim it so I don't lose it. Touch wood.

The Intense Kicking Shad... go out and get a few packs. I think for the 5" you get 3 for about $6 - rigged and all. They are a bit depth-charge like, but as I said the tails on them are the best you'll find. If your wanting to change tails and do the hotknife trick with plastics, like shown on JM's recent Monduran DVD, then these are the plastics/tails you want. Realistically, your paying $6 for 3 good tails ($2 a tail). Glued onto the rear of another good plastic (anything really) they will work well for you 100%. Cheap modification right there. Good jig head and your away.

Cheers

Theo

[Barraholic]

Some good info coming out here fellas.

To contribute to this thread - I have been trying to research less heard of soft plastics since watching JM's Monduran DVD - (man some of the lures from the underwater section took a while to find via endless google searching!).

This site http://www.tacklewarehouse.com/swimbaits.html provides a good window into what's out there (mainly US focussed). I recognise that there a lot more plastics out there but I would recommend having a look through these and then if you see something you reckon looks like it may be of interest go to youtube and search on the swimbait name - a lot of them are there for you to see their actions - this can either identify a new lure to trial or what different actions different styles of lures produce. There is a guy on there called The LureTour - plenty of soft plastic action porn on there for the discerning viewer!

I was inspired by the lures Johnny highlighted in this thread and the concept of exploring new options in lure types based on what you are trying to achieve - so I went out yesterday and bought something totally new to trial, the river 2 sea bottom walker with weed guard as it had some charactertics that looked worthwhile trialling (weed guard, broader profile, paddle tail and internal rattle) - initial mods have been taking lead out to slow down the decent rate and hole punching the tail to improve tail vibration at low speed - I'll be giving it a swim at the muster for those of you attending.

On the subject of modifying techniques (eg. be it boiling, reducing the stiffness of the wrist of the tail, increasing paddle diameter, reducing weight, changing weight distribution, adding rattles etc.) - I think we need to ask ourselves first what are we trying to acheive with the modification and why?

I don't have the answers yet but some of the questions I have in my mind are:

How do I get a plastic to swim at dead slow speed (and should I be aiming for increasing beat frequency or beat amplitude?)
What is the lead weight required to minimise decent rate whilst maintaining tail beat for a given plastic?
What are the situations where I am chasing more subtle actions (opposite to the first point above)?
What influence does decent angle have (eg. head first vs level decent)
And here's a real curly one - how do I find a soft plastic that will swim at low speeds to a specific depth, suspend and still put out some vibrations whilst suspending? ponder that one for a while

Many more questions out there of what are we trying to achieve and why - I certainly don't know yet if I'm even asking the right questions but a process of elimination/testing through time on water should help - and its fun experimenting!

Cheers,
Kev

[A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE]

Nagg, Why do I giggle to myself when you are stating some of the negative side about product 'x', when I did exactly the same and stated the negative side about lures 'y'and 'z'? Isn't that one and the same? You have listed pitfalls about a lure's packaging, the problems associated with this etc etc. This fits in exactly with what I am sharing. So why can't I talk about it? You are doing it, but I'm not getting upset. Why should you get upset? We shouldn't, we should share our concepts to advance anglers,,, if we desire. I desire!
You have agreed that not all plastic lures swim well direct from the bag, hence why I proposed a list of lures that do. Isn't that advancement, and a help? If you take a look at the list I shared, your photos don't correlate with this. You are talking of different models within the brand label. I'm simply adding a list of lures that 'everyday Joe', like myself can purchase without having to do a thing to them to have them swim freely.
This next bit is off track, but did you really expect a storm swim shad to suspend? Considering it has no bib to dive, it would be a floater if it was a suspender?!?!
Considering it was designed for northern hemisphere work and that water density varies from summer to winter, you will find that all of your suspenders will be floaters or sinkers at various times of the year.

This link is to a group of saltwater barra captures.
http://www.fishawoonga.com.au/saltwater.htm
Roughly half of the fish in the photos were caught via a straight wind principle with simple lures that made simple vibrations; hard and soft plastic lures. None of these fish captures can be directly linked to the lures as the main contributor, or the angler as a highly skilled operator. In simple, they don't deserve high praise. The fact that the fish were hungry was more of importance- almost any lure gets eaten. Most of the other fish were caught with soft and hard lures fished with refined technique. Many fell for softies that could free-fall and swim effortlessly. Refined lure presentation made the connection- simple tactics got zip. Skill and advanced presentation got fish when all seemed quiet. Some of these salties are over, 120, 130 and 140cm.
The same applies to the lakes.
It is often finesse that makes the difference when the easy coming fish aren't coming. We all dream of easy fish, but reality is, that becomes more uncommon as each year passes. Monduran's turn will come.
Johnny

[A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE]

Steve B said-
I just like fairness and equity in info in a thread, and not just a straight out degredation of a product that does work because you dont like the marketing, company or some of the blokes that are sponsored by them...thats what I disagree with. Simple.

But I have now found lately, no one is allowed to disagree with you guys or some or question your motivations behind things, or you threaten to pick up your bat and ball and go home.

Steve,
You are way off track with your ideas, especially me picking my bat and ball and going home. I can't even see where you plucked that idea from. And the concept of no one being allowed to disagree with me- wake up brother. That is the whole idea of public forums, we all present ourself in the wide open, to all and sundry, and try to assist; and scrutiny and disagreement will come, regardless. You won't see me leave for too long, the advancement of Aussie barra anglers is on my agenda. I'll keep pushing forward, no problem there. It seems you are happy to be creative and come up with your own ideas on words not said. How does this next paragraph appeal to you then if i am anti this, that, or the other?

The day I see any company, squidgy included, take the initiative and advance their designs to up to date levels I will be a happy camper. Why, because it will lift the fishing level higher, anglers will reach higher goals, learn more, and succeed more. If squidy re-design and come out with a lure that swims better, and does more for an angler I will be happy. Now that doesn't fit in with your beliefs, or does it? I'm here for anglers, not myself. My charter diary is pretty hectic. I'm not here sniffing extra work, I 'm here to assist anglers and promote them to move forwards. I simply added a list to help, you added the rest from your own mind.
Johnny

[NAGG]

Nagg, Why do I giggle to myself when you are stating some of the negative side about product 'x', when I did exactly the same and stated the negative side about lures 'y'and 'z'? Isn't that one and the same? You have listed pitfalls about a lure's packaging, the problems associated with this etc etc. This fits in exactly with what I am sharing. So why can't I talk about it? You are doing it, but I'm not getting upset. Why should you get upset? We shouldn't, we should share our concepts to advance anglers,,, if we desire. I desire!
You have agreed that not all plastic lures swim well direct from the bag, hence why I proposed a list of lures that do. Isn't that advancement, and a help? If you take a look at the list I shared, your photos don't correlate with this. You are talking of different models within the brand label. I'm simply adding a list of lures that 'everyday Joe', like myself can purchase without having to do a thing to them to have them swim freely.
This next bit is off track, but did you really expect a storm swim shad to suspend? Considering it has no bib to dive, it would be a floater if it was a suspender?!?!
Considering it was designed for northern hemisphere work and that water density varies from summer to winter, you will find that all of your suspenders will be floaters or sinkers at various times of the year.

This link is to a group of saltwater barra captures.
http://www.fishawoonga.com.au/saltwater.htm
Roughly half of the fish in the photos were caught via a straight wind principle with simple lures that made simple vibrations; hard and soft plastic lures. None of these fish captures can be directly linked to the lures as the main contributor, or the angler as a highly skilled operator. In simple, they don't deserve high praise. The fact that the fish were hungry was more of importance- almost any lure gets eaten. Most of the other fish were caught with soft and hard lures fished with refined technique. Many fell for softies that could free-fall and swim effortlessly. Refined lure presentation made the connection- simple tactics got zip. Skill and advanced presentation got fish when all seemed quiet. Some of these salties are over, 120, 130 and 140cm.
The same applies to the lakes.
It is often finesse that makes the difference when the easy coming fish aren't coming. We all dream of easy fish, but reality is, that becomes more uncommon as each year passes. Monduran's turn will come.
Johnny

Just pointing out some observations Johnny ....... you cant really get upset when the facts are put on the table. ........ but hey - as I said They are a favorite of mine ..... above any other placcy & have been for the last 24 months.

As far as tough times go ........ Absolutely - If you want to catch barra year round consistently , we certainly need to step up a gear - be it in our ability to read water , our tackle & lures ... our ability to work a lure etc etc.

Cheers

Chris

PS .... On the Suspending Shad - They are marketed here as a suspending lure
Yes this is common with plenty of lures that are designed / manufactured in the Northern Hemisphere ....... as we know they are not designed for our conditions / fish - (specially barra). We just adapt them as best as we can & use them for their other qualities.

[A_DIFF_PERSPECTIVE]

Nagg,
I see your point if it is marketed here, but marketing aside, the truth beckons. There is also a big gap in the 'suspending', or slow sink plastic range also. There is a lot of gaps that need filling in the barra world in the plastic and Hb scene. The door is wide open, but I have too many things on my plate to start making plastics for the barra secene. I'd love to do it. That ssss can be dynamite when fished as slow as it can go, with the treble on its head for better hook up rate. The treble also acts as a balance/pivot point for a finesse jig jig type roll that can induce the strike.
I'm off to work now, with all this tackle, and to test ourselves in the cool windy conditions.
Cheers,
Johnny

[darylive]

I really think some of you would argue that black and white is in fact white and black. It appears to me from a bystanders unbiased point of view that all the arguments are similar but approached from different angles?

What works, what doesn't, what do you have to do to make them work and why are they not made that way?

But it makes interesting reading. I did try some time ago to start a thread asking what mods people had done, why, the outcome and a picture if possibly. There was no response . Perhaps it is the opportunity to argue that appeals more to some.

Personally it is the lures, mods, and the results that interest more than the pillow fight but you guys go ahead .

Thanks again for all the useful info intermingled with the debate;
over what I am not sure.

[NAGG]

Nagg,
I see your point if it is marketed here, but marketing aside, the truth beckons. There is also a big gap in the 'suspending', or slow sink plastic range also. There is a lot of gaps that need filling in the barra world in the plastic and Hb scene. The door is wide open, but I have too many things on my plate to start making plastics for the barra secene. I'd love to do it. That ssss can be dynamite when fished as slow as it can go, with the treble on its head for better hook up rate. The treble also acts as a balance/pivot point for a finesse jig jig type roll that can induce the strike.
I'm off to work now, with all this tackle, and to test ourselves in the cool windy conditions.
Cheers,
Johnny

Enjoy your day out Johnny ......... i've got my placcys to tinker with - get em ready for Mondy

Chris

[Steve B]

Steve B said-
I just like fairness and equity in info in a thread, and not just a straight out degredation of a product that does work because you dont like the marketing, company or some of the blokes that are sponsored by them...thats what I disagree with. Simple.

But I have now found lately, no one is allowed to disagree with you guys or some or question your motivations behind things, or you threaten to pick up your bat and ball and go home.

Steve,
You are way off track with your ideas, especially me picking my bat and ball and going home. I can't even see where you plucked that idea from. And the concept of no one being allowed to disagree with me- wake up brother. That is the whole idea of public forums, we all present ourself in the wide open, to all and sundry, and try to assist; and scrutiny and disagreement will come, regardless. You won't see me leave for too long, the advancement of Aussie barra anglers is on my agenda. I'll keep pushing forward, no problem there. It seems you are happy to be creative and come up with your own ideas on words not said. How does this next paragraph appeal to you then if i am anti this, that, or the other?

The day I see any company, squidgy included, take the initiative and advance their designs to up to date levels I will be a happy camper. Why, because it will lift the fishing level higher, anglers will reach higher goals, learn more, and succeed more. If squidy re-design and come out with a lure that swims better, and does more for an angler I will be happy. Now that doesn't fit in with your beliefs, or does it? I'm here for anglers, not myself. My charter diary is pretty hectic. I'm not here sniffing extra work, I 'm here to assist anglers and promote them to move forwards. I simply added a list to help, you added the rest from your own mind.
Johnny

Ok, I said I would not interfere with the good info on here. there is some great info. Thanks. I will send you a PM.

I agree, the day ALL companies inprove designs to suit anglers, I will be cheering with you.

Steve

[darylive]

Steve,

Come on now you have everyone interested.