BRP Evinrude calls for industry unity for a cleaner environment

[finga]

what...no response about my example of diesel boats out polluting anything on the water??

[Gary Fooks]

And no comments from you about all the references etc I sent ?

No "ok I get your point" ? no concessions, just more argument?

You say diesel "boats" then you change topic to "ships" which push all their emissions into the air, not the water like an outboard.

You also shift topic from potential pollutants to greenhouse gasses ... another moving target...And of course ships are registered and controlled in their home port - and are, in the main, not under Australian legislation.


Over and out.
Gary

[PinHead]

don't worry aboit it finga..if it doesn't suit Gray's agenda then it doesn't fit. Just another tree hugger trying to ram his views down everyones else throat.

[finga]

I give up.

BRP's motives are the try and convince us that we need to get rid of our 2 strokes because they're killing the environment ....and us when large ships are pumping a kazillions times the amount of crap into various eco-systems they transverse threough. All because of a report that should have as much influence as my Footrot Flats comics.

Gary's motives are to convince us outboards that comply to whatever standard he wants to mention should be allowed on every waterway in the state because they don't pollute...(what about noise pollution etc??) and he wants to fish there.

But don't worry about the the crap the container ships and trucks and jumbo jets etc etc...are pumping into the environment. They don't really matter because we couldn't be bothered to consider them.
I'd better look out for the whipper snipper and blower vac eh. They'll be next on the hit list...and then my fuel powered R/C car and then the metho stove....

[PinHead]

LOL finga..be careful..the whipper snipper police will get ya.

I am still waiting to find out who the Ec friendly fishing mob are? ..i asked that but no answer

[PADDLES]

i'm a bit "behind the eight ball" here, are you guys saying that there's some sort of chemical reaction that makes the emissions from a 2 stroke engine disappear when they go into sea water?

[PinHead]

i'm a bit "behind the eight ball" here, are you guys saying that there's some sort of chemical reaction that makes the emissions from a 2 stroke engine disappear when they go into sea water?

I am asking IF there are any reactions..and also what rate of dilution if any occurs. No point spruiking figures taken from the exhaust in air...if we have to have controls then that is fne but let's make sure all the avenues have been researched first.

[finga]

I am asking IF there are any reactions..and also what rate of dilution if any occurs. No point spruiking figures taken from the exhaust in air...if we have to have controls then that is fne but let's make sure all the avenues have been researched first.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...age&q=&f=false

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

with this one just scroll up a tad to the beginning of the chapter.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...age&q=&f=false

But by looking at the problem from another angle would be to develop a good biodegradable oil.
Oh bugger. I'm about 25 zillions years behind, it'salready been done
http://www.motorexoil.com.au/html/pr...watercraft.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n20411634/

http://www.getg.com/products/product...3&ProductID=11

All found with simple googling.

[FNQCairns]

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...age&q=&f=false

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0

with this one just scroll up a tad to the beginning of the chapter.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...age&q=&f=false

But by looking at the problem from another angle would be to develop a good biodegradable oil.
Oh bugger. I'm about 25 zillions years behind, it'salready been done
http://www.motorexoil.com.au/html/pr...watercraft.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n20411634/

http://www.getg.com/products/product...3&ProductID=11

All found with simple googling.

True and it's called the tcw3 specification of oil (all tcw3 oils), reason behind it not being as fully robust a 2 stroke engine oil as it could easily be otherwise...we are already taking one for the team and have been for lot's of years.

Another example of science first doing what was needed before Zealot enacted regulation did badly what wasn't actually needed.

cheers fnq

[PADDLES]

agreed fnq. even though i do support tighter emissions regulations for engines, a lot could also be achieved with the regulation of the oil used for people who wish to keep a conventional 2s. the tcw3 standard doesn't make the oil completely biodegradeable though does it, if you want this you have to buy a special oil, is this the case? how much pollution is there if renewable bio type oils are used are premixed with 2s engines, is there such an oil?

[FNQCairns]

agreed fnq. even though i do support tighter emissions regulations for engines, a lot could also be achieved with the regulation of the oil used for people who wish to keep a conventional 2s. the tcw3 standard doesn't make the oil completely biodegradeable though does it, if you want this you have to buy a special oil, is this the case? how much pollution is there if renewable bio type oils are used are premixed with 2s engines, is there such an oil?

Yeah pretty much completely biodegradable....well it depends on the technical ticks applied. As biodegradable as the same volume of body parts or leaf matter or ..........., biodegrading takes time and populations of flora to achieve amongst other things.

The media pretty much at the hands of their zealot masters has brainwashed the general population as to what biodegradable actually is.

To my knowledge apart from the tcw3 spec of oil there is no higher 2 stoke biodegradable outboard oil outside of a home made linseed oil mix.

That's not to say a company will not use the biodegradable portion of the specification to market their product as somehow superior to all the other tcw3 oils sold (cash in on the hysteria).

cheers fnq

[Gary Fooks]

I think it was Evinrude who had a biodegradable 2 stroke oil on the market some years ago. Apparently it didn’t sell well and was pulled.

The high level Hydrocarbons coming out of two strokes isn’t just oil – it oil and petrol, and some part burnt.

Two strokes, because of their very design, push out some “fresh” fuel before it even gets burned. This is because there is not a separate exhaust cycle and compression cycle.

Even with scavenging systems, fuel (petrol + oil) is wasted out the exhaust pipe. I guess this is one main reason why two strokes also use more fuel.

Direct Injection two strokes (Tohatsu TLDI, Mercury Optimax, E-TEC and Yamaha HPDI) use electronics to be more precise about when (and where ) fuel is injected, meaning far less is wasted our the exhaust pipe.


So - while biodegradable 2 stroke oil would be good ….

• how do you make it compulsory?
• given the high HC levels is both fuel and oil coming out the exhaust, we would ALSO need biodegradable petrol.

I’ve read that most fuel and oil is eventually biodegradable - biodegradable oils are just much, much quicker. ( plastics, I read, are another issue)

Large oil spills cause their own problems ( eg seabirds with fouled feathers)

Smaller disperse amounts of HC are linked to other problems. Close to home, and as an example, one study* showed that mangroves in Moreton Bay were dropping albino seeds which sprouted and died. That’s bad – no mangroves, no little fish. No little fish no big fish.

The cause was listed as hydrocarbons in the water - but no source of HC was nominated.

Gary



P Chlorophyll-deficient propagules of Avicennia marina and apparent longer term deterioration of mangrove fitness in oil-polluted sediments, Norman C. Duke, and Andrew J. Watkinson Marine Botany Group, Mangrove Ecosystem Research, Centre for Marine Studies, The University of Queensland, Brisbane

[Crunchy]

Oh how I love thy 2-stroke (Carby), let thee count the ways...

* Your a man's motor, the resounding call of a WWII Spitfire rather than a Singer sewing machine....

* Your there when I need you, I ask you for more power and I don't have to wait, while you waste a stroke...

* When your a little unhappy I can attend to you myself...

* You can take everything I throw at you, no having a hissy fit just because something's not quite right...

* I can change & clean you myself when you need it....

* I don't have to come on Ausfish and say "My X-Tec is playing up, what can be wrong"?

* You leave pretty rainbow colours in the water when I lower you in....



OK perhaps not the last one.....any others to add?

[PADDLES]

good one crunchy lol

you start up with a james bond style smoke screen on a cold morning ................ those pesky bad guys won't know which way you went for about ten minutes ............... unless they follow the pretty rainbow colours you leave ..........

yeah gary, i was sure that there was an oil marketed specifically as being fully biodegradeable, but like you say, most stuff can be biodegradeable it's just a matter of time and how much stuff it poisons along the way.

personally, no matter which way i look at it though, i can't see a down side of legislation for "cleaner" marine power plants other than basic economics. ie. it's cheaper to produce a conventional 2s engine than an injected one or a 4s.

whether you like it or not, and if we push boats to one side, conventional 2s engines have been pretty much dead and buried as automotive power for decades, they have also been slowly removed from competition motorcycles as well (albeit by having to use an engine of double the capacity to get the same power output) and are now being phased out of small power equipment and scooters. all development by most automotive manufacturers is going into 4s technology to get gains in efficiency and therefore drops in emissions. with the exception of a few applications (boat racing and some small bore bike racing and scooters), the conventional 2s is dead guys. it's being flogged to us by manufacturers so they can make their last dollar out of it whilst not having to develop the technology any further because it's at the end of the road.

i'm spewing because i'm a 2s bike man (and i acknowledge that they pollute more than a 4s), nothing beats that rip of a properly jetted 2s between ya knees, you just don't get that with a 4s, but who am i to stand in the way of progress.

[Gary Fooks]

I wonder why DI 2 stroke technology has never made it outside of outboards ie to bikes?

I can see it would too expensive for lawn mowers ...