Dodgy radio etiquette

[Dave_H]

When you are out on the water and talking to the Coast Guard or VMR, you must never end your call with "over and out". Using the word "out" indicates that you are immediately turning off your radio and will not be responding to any further calls addressed to you. To use the word "out" will definitely bring confusion to the Coast Guard or VMR. The word "over" is generally used only when reception is poor and the call can't be defined as ended. The carrier wave of the radio almost always indicates when the call has ended by the loud click that is transmitted.
A huge amount for the responsibility of bad protocol over the radio goes to the TV. A particularly poor example is "Sea Patrol". The dumb blonde uses "over and out" all the time. Don’t get caught out by these stupid programs.
Using the correct protocol with the (marine) radio develops enormous confidence and respect in you as a skipper by your passengers. If you don't know the correct radio procedures, join up with the Coast Guard or whoever and get your licence for VHF. If you have a radio installed in your boat, it should be turned on all the time to the appropriate channel to moniter any distress call or instructions given by the Coast Guard or VMR. Professionalism should equate to safety afloat, well it should be so.
Eagle

I'm sorry Eagle parts of your post are quite incorrect.

I would suggest that you may (and everyone else who may well feel a little rusty on R/T phrasiology and the latest trends/news in so far as the regulator is concerned...) want to have another read of the relevant procedures for Marine Radiotelephone at http://www.amc.edu.au/system/files/a....mrohb_.08.pdf

Eagle I would draw your attention to the pages 78 and onwards. The expression "Over" has ALWAYS been used to signify that the speaker has finished transmitting and is expecting a reply.

Similarly "Out" (used by itself) refers to the speaker finishing his/her transmission and not expecting a reply.

"Roger" is an acceptable modern substitute for "Romeo" (or "yes, I understand" - this harks back to the Naval use of flags for visual communication between vessels many years ago during times of radio silence. The use of the word Roger has becom more commonplace since the mid '90's.

Tight Lines,

Dave.

[QF3 MROCP]

G'day

A typical call might go something like this

(Note: its acceptable to only call the station you are calling twice and identify yourself once on a VHF with clear reception - but call out both names 3 times if there is reception difficulty of if it is in an emergency. If you are on 27 Meg, also repeat each name 3 times because reception is scratchy at times)

You: "VMR Bribie, VMR Bribie, this is Bribie mobile XYZ on channel 73"
VMR Bribie: "Bribie Mobile XYZ, go ahead"
You: "Good morning VMR Bribie, can you put us on the trip log please"
VMR Bribie: "No problems, give us your details (they may or may not ask up front for the required list of information"
You: "Thanks, we are departing spinnaker sound marina now, bound for hutchinsons reef. We have 5 POB, and we expect to return no later than 16:00 this afternoon"
VMR Bribie: <pause while writing all that down> "Thanks mobile XYZ, we have you on the log, have a good day. VMR Bribie Clear.
You: "Thanks very much, Bribie mobile XYZ Out."

On your return back in harbour:

You: "VMR Bribie, VMR Bribie, this is Bribie Mobile XYZ on channel 73"
VMR Bribie: "Bribie Mobile XYZ, go ahead"
You: "Good afternoon VMR Bribie, we are now entering into spinnaker sound marina, can you take us off the log please?"
VMR Bribie: "Thanks for that Mobile XYZ, we have you off the log. VMR Bribie clear"
You: "Thanks for your watch, Bribie Mobile XYZ out"

Above is not absolutely by the book but close enough for practical purposes and you will be considered to have been courteous, informative and appreciative by the radio operator who takes your call.

Just remember to 'speak' with the radio operator - ultimately you are just having a conversation with him. Do your calls like this initially and get comfortable having a formalised conversation with the radio operator and you'll be fine.

Also go and do your MROCP training (can be done through Coast Guard Redcliffe) and then once you have done that course you can decide how much closer you want to get to doing it absolutely by the book.

A few other things: if you don't have a mobile number (from joining up the associate membership), you will get asked for more information, like: Boat type, registration and possibly a mobile phone number. If you use a call sign, like "Spearking", the radio operator may come back after your first call with "Vessel calling VMR Bribie, please repeat your call sign" if they cannot clearly understand you. If after the second time they still don't understand you, be prepared to spell it phonetically "sierra pappa echo alpha romeo kilo india november golf", but to avoid that for bugger all per year and have lots of other benefits, just join up as an associate member with either VMR or Coast Guard. Having a mobile number means that all of your vessel and personal details are already on file in the radio room, and all they need is your membership mobile number.

I recommend sticking a label inside your boat with your boat registration number - nothing worse than getting asked and having to lean over the side to read it upside down and then get back on the radio.

cheers

Mick

Thanks Mick for the referal for our MROCVP training course - next one is on Feb 22nd.

Trueblue - send me a PM with phone number and I'll talk you through it if you want. One other thing to add the the end of each transmission is the word "over". That makes it clear you have finished the transmission and are waiting for a reply from the base sation or other vessel your calling.

As Mick has stated - finish the final transmission with OUT - then we all know you have returned to monitoring channel 16 and have left the airwaves.

Peter

Peter

[mik01]

I'm sorry Eagle parts of your post are quite incorrect.

I would suggest that you may (and everyone else who may well feel a little rusty on R/T phrasiology and the latest trends/news in so far as the regulator is concerned...) want to have another read of the relevant procedures for Marine Radiotelephone at http://www.amc.edu.au/system/files/a....mrohb_.08.pdf

Eagle I would draw your attention to the pages 78 and onwards. The expression "Over" has ALWAYS been used to signify that the speaker has finished transmitting and is expecting a reply.

Similarly "Out" (used by itself) refers to the speaker finishing his/her transmission and not expecting a reply.

"Roger" is an acceptable modern substitute for "Romeo" (or "yes, I understand" - this harks back to the Naval use of flags for visual communication between vessels many years ago during times of radio silence. The use of the word Roger has becom more commonplace since the mid '90's.

Tight Lines,

Dave.

Dave - you're probably right that 'roger' is an acceptable 'modern' substitute, however its still slang and not the Australian radio term for 'yes'. why would you need to substitute the correct term 'romeo' for anything? I can only imagine its laziness & thanks to American influences (ie bad movies!).

you could say 'yes' or 'affirmative' or 'positive' - all of which could be argued are 'acceptable modern substitutes' - however 'romeo' is the correct term and always will be. the point of having a 'standard' is that all marine radio operators are to use the same terminology, thereby reducing confusion over the airwaves.
otherwise we come up with different phonetic alphabets and everyone gets confused.

not having a chip at you - but if we want to maintain a protocol and ensure we have clear understanding over radio then we at least need to try to maintain the correct terminology and procedures.

regardless of the fine points - the main thing is that we try to maintain the correct procedures and eliminate confusion - as I mentioned above, your life may depend on someone understanding you first time...

[webby]

I was in communications in the RAAF back in the 70-80's and we used the work Roger then and not the phonetic R-Romeo
The word Out, means you are or have finishing your transmission (conversations) and will be listening out on the monitored frequency.
You can use Roger Out, if acknowledging a reply, and you have nothing further to say.
The Phonetic Alphabet is quite easy to learn
A ALPHA-------- O OSCAR
B BRAVO-------- P PAPA
C CHARLIE------ Q QUEBEC
D DELTA -------- R ROMEO
E ECHO ----------S SIERRA
F FOXTROT------- T TANGO
G GOLF------------U UNIFORM
H HOTEL--------- V VICTOR
I INDIA------------ W WHISKEY
J JULIET -----------X XRAY
K KILO ------------ Y YANKEE

L LIMA............... Z ZULU
M MIKE
N NOVEMBER

cAN ALSO GIVE ALL THE MORSE CODE FOR THE ABOVE

regards

[tigermullet]

I wasn't going to buy into this discussion but the acknowledgment 'Roger' is not slang and has been used in Australia for...well, just about forever. We were using it in 1961 (it was common then and probably had been for years before that) and it's use continued right up until I quit those occupations in 1998.

How the acknowledgment 'Romeo' crept in is anyone's guess. Perhaps it arose as a misunderstanding from a transcript where the abbreviation 'R' was used and some inexperienced person interpreted as standing for 'Romeo'; or it might have come from an American movie where the phrase used was, "That's a big Romeo, Smokey Bear". I cringe every time I hear it spoken as 'Romeo' because it's just so unprofessional.

And, just to be super annoying, the word 'affirmative' is no longer used - the correct term being 'affirm'. I know exactly how the word 'affirm' came into use - the history is well known to me but not worth bothering with anymore.

That's it from me. Roger, Wilco, Over and Out.

[mik01]

I wasn't going to buy into this discussion but the acknowledgment 'Roger' is not slang and has been used in Australia for...well, just about forever. We were using it in 1961 (it was common then and probably had been for years before that) and it's use continued right up until I quit those occupations in 1998.

How the acknowledgment 'Romeo' crept in is anyone's guess. Perhaps it arose as a misunderstanding from a transcript where the abbreviation 'R' was used and some inexperienced person interpreted as standing for 'Romeo'; or it might have come from an American movie where the phrase used was, "That's a big Romeo, Smokey Bear". I cringe every time I hear it spoken as 'Romeo' because it's just so unprofessional.

And, just to be super annoying, the word 'affirmative' is no longer used - the correct term being 'affirm'. I know exactly how the word 'affirm' came into use - the history is well known to me but not worth bothering with anymore.

That's it from me. Roger, Wilco, Over and Out.

why is 'romeo' taught on the MROCP license if its not the correct term?

[tigermullet]

Why is it taught? I have no idea but probably speaks to the level of professionalism involved.

I guess that it does not matter when you get right down to it. The use of 'Romeo' just sounds dorky even though the message might still be understood.

Webby is right in the alphabet, the use of 'Roger" etc., - it is definitely not some type of slang. Webby must have been a Teleg or Sigs Op too.

[FNQCairns]

This is an interesting topic, I have simply no hope of saying anything else but Roger, it's all I ever used for so many years in private use, I too simply cannot say romeo as it smacks a little and besides I doubt I can think fast enough in real time to replace Roger as I do not hold much of the obsessive compulsive needed to make it worth my while.

Still if there is a very good reason.....

Need to do some net searches to work out this riddle, what do the top gun flyboys use or even commercial pilots??

cheers fnq

[trueblue]

Need to do some net searches to work out this riddle, what do the top gun flyboys use or even commercial pilots??

cheers fnq

don't go there...... don't mix up air band radio procedures with Marine... they are quite different.

What is taught in the MROCP courses is what is set out by the controlling body to be the curriculum, to standardise everything.

with any standardisation, someone always loses out because what was right before becomes no longer right.

cheers

Mick

[mik01]

This is an interesting topic, I have simply no hope of saying anything else but Roger, it's all I ever used for so many years in private use, I too simply cannot say romeo as it smacks a little and besides I doubt I can think fast enough in real time to replace Roger as I do not hold much of the obsessive compulsive needed to make it worth my while.

Still if there is a very good reason.....

Need to do some net searches to work out this riddle, what do the top gun flyboys use or even commercial pilots??

cheers fnq

interesting for me too - did a google search and found this forum -
http://www.techrescue.org/smforum/in...13753.msg19708

there are 2 pages, so click 'next' at the bottom.

I'm happy to be corrected if wrong, however was taught 'romeo' not 'roger'.

see also this page -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedu...ROGER.2C_ROMEO

looks like they are interchangeable and 'romeo' is typically meant to be used in Australian maritime operations rather than 'roger'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger

edit - it appears that 'roger' is mainly to be used by flyboys etc - maritime seems to have adopted 'romeo' per the phonetic alphabet for 'R' or 'Received'.

I don't think that it means 'unprofessional' to be taught 'romeo' when there was a clear directive to use it after WW2. anyway, make up your own mind and use whatever you prefer!

[webby]

Ah Tigermullet, your correct mate was a Teleg from 68-80, ended up in 3Telu for the last 2 years where they tried to convert me to a sigsop, but wouldnt agree so left the RAAF in 80
regards

[FNQCairns]

interesting for me too - did a google search and found this forum -
http://www.techrescue.org/smforum/in...13753.msg19708

there are 2 pages, so click 'next' at the bottom.

I'm happy to be corrected if wrong, however was taught 'romeo' not 'roger'.

see also this page -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedu...ROGER.2C_ROMEO

looks like they are interchangeable and 'romeo' is typically meant to be used in Australian maritime operations rather than 'roger'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger

edit - it appears that 'roger' is mainly to be used by flyboys etc - maritime seems to have adopted 'romeo' per the phonetic alphabet for 'R' or 'Received'.

I don't think that it means 'unprofessional' to be taught 'romeo' when there was a clear directive to use it after WW2. anyway, make up your own mind and use whatever you prefer!

Here is another one, seems it all has to do with a new world order and all that, without being certain it seems we had no option but to use Romeo for future budding acceptance somewhere in something later etc and therefore it is 'now' correct and roger incorrect, I am far from reverent toward the depth of ink on paper so I will use roger until I adapt to romeo...if I hear it enough it will happen but I don't hear it much when on the water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_A...netic_Alphabet

cheers fnq

[tigermullet]

Ah Tigermullet, your correct mate was a Teleg from 68-80, ended up in 3Telu for the last 2 years where they tried to convert me to a sigsop, but wouldnt agree so left the RAAF in 80
regards

Well, well, There aren't many of us left. I was there (3Telu) from 1963 to 1967 and left to try civilian life.

With hindsight it could have been better to go to DSD or Foreign Affairs after the RAAF but wives do have a great influence. Coming home to Queensland was a bit of a blow but things turned out well enough.

Regards.

[Sea-Dog]

Hey Webby, have you got something against Americans ?

You left Yankee out of your phonetic alphabet.

[Dave_H]

I wasn't going to buy into this discussion but the acknowledgment 'Roger' is not slang and has been used in Australia for...well, just about forever. We were using it in 1961 (it was common then and probably had been for years before that) and it's use continued right up until I quit those occupations in 1998.

How the acknowledgment 'Romeo' crept in is anyone's guess. Perhaps it arose as a misunderstanding from a transcript where the abbreviation 'R' was used and some inexperienced person interpreted as standing for 'Romeo'; or it might have come from an American movie where the phrase used was, "That's a big Romeo, Smokey Bear". I cringe every time I hear it spoken as 'Romeo' because it's just so unprofessional.

And, just to be super annoying, the word 'affirmative' is no longer used - the correct term being 'affirm'. I know exactly how the word 'affirm' came into use - the history is well known to me but not worth bothering with anymore.

That's it from me. Roger, Wilco, Over and Out.

Mick, love your work - absolutely spot on! The word "roger has no basis in MARINE radio however is creeping in from other influences such as UHF CB and 27meg CB (not to be confused with Marine 27meg).

Please don't dispair guys and girls, it is very simple, yet no-one will hang you for not using the absolute correct wording. FNQ you keep using whatever word you like for it...

We obviously have a couple of army sig types here, onya guys, love your work too tigermullet, however be advised that the origins of the word Romeo being used (instead of Roger) to convey the word for an affirmative response has its origins in Naval Flag etiquete [spl] - ie the R flag when hoisted aloft means to convey an affirmative response to a question. That is why it is a Marine Standard to use the word Romeo to convey an affirmative response. What you in the Army used worked for you (Eastings/Northings for mapping/calling in airstrikes etc) but bears no resemblance to what happens in the outside word - ie Deg Lat and Long for example.

Again, please refer to the ACMA publication I linked to.

FNQ, I have had an interesting time adapting - you see at one time or another I have been involved in or employed in: The Army/Army Reserve - 2TG (4.5 years), AVCGA (9 years, 11 months, 29 days - on purpose... - NF3, NF1,NF3 again), have a NSW Maritime Coxswain cert (RPL'd across from Coast Guard) and, funnily enough have been a commercial/airline pilot since 2000 (working for a Canberra Based airline for the last few years).

You might say I've seen a few different types of R/T over the past 25 years of my working life.... The big thing is to remember - there is no right or wrong - just get that message out but for gawd sake don't waffle!

Keep the great discussion going this is how people learn!

Hope everyone has a great New Years!

Tight Lines.

Dave