Does el-cheapo do the job..?

[Jungle Jim]

Now pull these reels apart and lay them out side by side.
Try and show me where’s the extra $450 in parts in value.
You can't.

Lets not forget that the value of a product is more than the sum of it’s parts.

Good will, reputation, warranties, after market service, exclusivity, resale value....

These may or may not be as important to a customer or as irrelevant - as the drag rating or country of manufacture.

But these are some of the factors the make up the value of a product rather than just the cost of it's components.

Jim

[TuffTackle]

Jungle Jim,
Customs is run by humans, if you where importing on a regular basis, eventually you would get flagged for review.
If it was apparent or suspected you were a commercial operation, importing protected brands customs can pretty much do what they want.
But not all brands have brand protection.

There's no publicly available list for protected brands, so with the savings there is also some risk.
If I imported a box of 20 Saltiga's the chance of losing them is very high, if I imported a sample saltiga, it would be OK, If I imported 1 every week, it would get flagged for review.

[Noelm]

the "being made in the same factory" is completely irrelevant, two products can certainly can be made in the same factory, and some even use the same parts, but to say a $500 item, and a $100 item is the same because it came from the same factory is rubbish, way back when I was involved in the Electrical Industry, we could get Batteries made in the same Factory as Eveready, but at a quarter of the price, they even looked like Eveready, but when cut open, only about a third of the case was actualy filled with product, the rest was packed with Saw dust to make up the size, but they were still made in the same factory with the same workers, but the product was sh!t they would be flat as a fart in 5 minutes, but geees they were cheap! you could even get them cheaper if you wanted, and branded as Eveready, the factory did not care one bit, so as far as Fishing Reels and Rods go, they may well be made in the same factory as Shimano and even look like a Shimano (or whatever brand you like) and the internal parts will LOOK the same, but mostly the Metals are about as good as Chrome Plated Licorice, and life span is very short. Now is a $1000 Reel 4 times better than a $250 Reel? that's anyones guess, some say yes without doubt, some say maybe (me) some say no way, it's your choice and your cash, but is a $1000 Reel better than a Chinese copy of the same Reel?? YES, YES, YES!!!

[steveyb]

Hey ##########

You have forgotten to mention Banax who make all their own reels in their own factories. Quality is through the roof and they engineer many reels and parts for the big "reel manufacturers"

Cheers and Merry Christmas to all.

[Jungle Jim]

Jungle Jim,
Customs is run by humans, if you where importing on a regular basis, eventually you would get flagged for review.
If it was apparent or suspected you were a commercial operation, importing protected brands customs can pretty much do what they want.
But not all brands have brand protection.

There's no publicly available list for protected brands, so with the savings there is also some risk.
If I imported a box of 20 Saltiga's the chance of losing them is very high, if I imported a sample saltiga, it would be OK, If I imported 1 every week, it would get flagged for review.

That probably sums it up nicely.

Thanks

*********************


Spears

looking at that photo of the van staal in my uneducated opinion i would agree that “pushing it to the limit” would just about be spot on too.

maybe past the limit though...... oooooppssss

Effectively there is a fixed point = Reel seat

and a force (albeit an unknown amount) being applied at the opposite end of a lever = Reel stem

The longer the reel stem -the more pressure that is placed on it.


Screw the drag up -apply more force -multiplied by he lever effect and Pop goes the vanstaal

I’m no engineer or reel tech for that matter so please educate me if possible

JIM

[NAGG]

We need to be a little careful ..... when talking about manufacturing sites & componentry.
Yes the likes of Daiwa & Shimano use toll manufacturers in taiwan , china , thailand & Korea to build certain products ....... & yes there are probably copies being produced under some other name......... But I can tell you now - they would not be built to the same tolerances or use identical parts
Daiwa for instance build their high end reels in Japan ....... The airmetal bodies / parts are made in Japan , digigear is made in Japan ...... under strict QC / tolerances - These & other components are then sent to assembly plants in other Asian countries ....... where they are assembled under strict guidelines.
Now ..... this is where the big difference lies....... Quality parts & design.

A couple years back ..... I listened to talk about buying reels that were manufactured in the same plants as other top brands - I bought a Maple Cypher 2000 spin reel ( to be used by mates / family etc) ..... Now the bloke told me (i've forgotten) what reels were made in the same Chinese plant ..... sounded good - Shimano Bearings 7 & 1 roller ..... sounded good > The reel felt nice & smooth - Spare spool - looked like a reasonable buy for $100 discounted from $180...... Sounds great 5 year warranty ...... Even better
now ....... the reel felt OK the couple of times I used it for bream SP fishing ..... Its only been used 4 or 5 times - but after a torrid bass session at Cania the gears jam every now & then ( loose tolerances) the drag is still reasonably smooth - the handle has a couple of mm of play - After looking at it right now there is a little corrosion on the shaft ..... & on a couple of screws
Was this reel a good buy ...... I think not (for the limited use) - If I used this reel like I do my Certate or Miss problematic Stella ..... The reel would be stuffed.
If it was my only reel - I would have replaced it (I couldn't be bothered with the warranty) ........ I guess I'm spoilt by the better quality reels!

chris

[finding_time]

Now pull these reels apart and lay them out side by side.
Try and show me where’s the extra $450 in parts in value.
You can't.

So a reels value is only seen in the quality of it's parts ? That is a totally simplistic view Spears you obviously thought about it for a loooooong time

Mate i work in the dental industry and the majority of my time is spent with implant dentistry. Now the componentry for one complete implant from the leading company is $1800.00! What would this cost the company to make, maybe $30.00 or a tad under 2% of the products value! So where does the company spend it's money, well R&D is the biggy and marketing but the companys R&D represents the products true value! Other companys make implants and some for alot less but they dont spend as much on R&D and a much higher percentage of there's fail early so where's there value?

Back to fishing Stellars will fail , Van Stals will fail, and so will saltiga's but at what rate?

If you took 100 stellas, 100 saltiga's, 100 van stalls and 100 of your $450.00 reels and put them through an equal amount of very tough punishment, eg high drag over extended periods i think you would find that the better quality reels would have a lower breakage rate!!!

Now i'm sure some stellas, saltig's and van stalls will fail! And i'm equally sure some of those 450 dollar reels will come through unscathed but overall the percentages will be much less. And thats what it all about PERCENTAGES!!!!!!!!! This is why your pictures are worthless! Of course the expensive reels break but so do the $450 ones and more often i would guess( where are your pictures of these BTW, didn't suit your arguement hey? )

Ian

Ps here's a pic of an Aj caught on a 3500 certate, reels still in perfect condition after almost 1hr on it

[Morston]

What I find curious, about all this talk about the cost to produce a reel, is why the same product can be sold in the US, Australia and the UK or Europe at hugely different prices.

If these reels cost so much to produce how come they are so much cheaper in the US?

I have a number of spinning rods, bought in the UK for around the $100 mark. These rods have fuji sic rings, fuji components and are as good as any I have seen over here. These were, no doubt, manufactured in the same place as most others but under brand names that most on here may not recognse but which are well respected in Europe.

I have also a number of Stradic reels bought in the US at prices which would make you weep. Strangely, when I bought my first pair of Stradics (in a Kmart in Oregon) I compared them to a pair of similar sized Zebco reels (not sure if Zebco were ever marketed in Australia). At the time the Zebco reels were more expensive and, I was told, better quality. I bought the Shimanos because I had always associated Zebco with the cheap end of the market in the UK.

Tackle marketeers indeed move in mysterious ways.

[Noelm]

Zebco was indeed in Aus, and as in the UK I think only crap models were bought in, they may have made good quality as well, but I don't think we ever saw them, they had a fling with those dinky little closed face reels, most crapped out while still quite new, and were dumped, never to see the light of day again.

[Jungle Jim]

I believe difference in the cost relative to different locations can be at least 90% put down to volumes sold in that market.

As example –
The trout fly fishing market in Nz would be considerably larger than the fly fishing market in Brisbane. The retailers order more (fly fishing related) stock get it a better price, sell more stock - so require less margin per unit to cover costs.

Don’t even start on the us market. ..... ... .

I would hazard a guess and say the other 10% comes down to the cost of goods sold.
Cost of staff in those shops, cost to ship it there from point of manufacture , associated taxes etc.

But by far the volume of stock sold influences the price to per unit.
The underlining factor is the more i sell the less margin i need per unit to cover costs.

I heard once:
The easiest way to make a million dollars is to take a dollar off a million people.



Jim

[Morston]

Zebco was indeed in Aus, and as in the UK I think only crap models were bought in, they may have made good quality as well, but I don't think we ever saw them, they had a fling with those dinky little closed face reels, most crapped out while still quite new, and were dumped, never to see the light of day again.

The Zebco reels I handled in Oregon were in a completely different league to the ones sold in the UK although I believe Zebco also sold tackle under the brand name 'Browning' (same as the gun manufacturer) in the UK as well.....not sure if that brand still exists where fishing gear is concerned.

[Morston]

I believe difference in the cost relative to different locations can be at least 90% put down to volumes sold in that market

The bigger dealers can often sell stuff cheaper than the smaller dealers can buy it for due to bulk discounting.

[TuffTackle]

Here's some more info, to fuel to the fire.

http://www.jarden.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=72395&p=home

Fishing brands they own. + all the subbrands under each one listed, Berkely - Tica, Juro etc etc.

Fishing:
Abu Garcia®, All Star Rods®, Berkley®, Fenwick®, Gulp!®, Johnson®, JRC Products®, Mitchell®, Penn®, Pflueger®, Shakespeare®, Spiderwire®, Stren®, Trilene®, Ugly Stick®, and XTools®.
But I totally agree with finding_time, but at what cost is reasonable ?

For 4 x Penn (copies) is 1 x penn W 80 really worth 4 x the price, if it is 4 x more reliable (which I doubt)
For myself I'd rely on 4 x Penn 80w copies than one Penn brand 80w

I pull these things apart all the time, and the tolerances are identical, occasionaly there might be a 'copy' with an assembly fault, or a bur not removed on a critical part, but I'm capable of seeing it before it becomes an issue, but I'm talking about a fault rate of 1 in 500, which under stricter quality guidelines for the name brand might have been picked up before release, or it may reduce fault rate to 1 in 1000 not, but not 1 in 2000.

Even then the odds are better stacked on 4 reels against 1.

[1lastcast]

MONOSTRETCHO, who said I was talking about you ?

(not only me mate all ausfishers who buy top end gear)

If you know where you stand on the issue why be so defensive ?

(because you are starting to s#@t me )

Anyway, my point is price does not mean perfection.

Also If we are talking stand up, (8kg - 12kg of drag absolute max)
You don't need to spend a $1000 to get to that.

If you're talking chairs and harnesses, yes you need to spend the money, even the 30,50,80,130W copies are expensive (same factory price as brand names)

But if someone can sell a copy for $350 and make a living, then $1800 is too much, the components come from the same factories (fact)

As far as (alot of stuff being made in the same factories) I know it's true.

Ask yourself how come I can sell a BayPac rod for $300 with $600 of components on it ? and make a living.

((i can buy aftco rollers, aftco alloy uni butt , calstar blank all the threads and hypalon to build the best 24kg rod for $600 all top end gear , your telling porkies arnt you)))

The wholesale price of 2 Baypac butts is more than the cost of my whole rod, from the top 4 rod manufacturers, who incidently make brand rods that are also top shelf price, and I can sell uglystics for $10 and make a living, from the same factory.

I think the point of the original question is Does el-cheapo do the job ?

For 8kg of drag required for stand up (YES)
For stand up rods (YES) as any rod can be broken no matter what price.

Is a Copy Penn international the same quality as a Penn international (YES) they use the same components, and are assembled by the same labourers.

Is a single brand name bent butt on it's own worth $300 (NO)
Is a rod with a blank from the same factory as Shimano or alot of other brands with a lesser known name with $600 (perceived components on it) worth $300
Of course it is.

So is it possible to spend alot less and still have quality, of course it is.

Is it possible to spend less and buy crap, of course it is.

((finaly some truth))

Should you speak without knowledge, No you shouldn't.

((sorry master i will now go and sit in the corner))

My point is this one , ebay is flooded with cheap absolute garbage fishing rods and reels and this stuff is crap ! many years ago when i was buying stuff off ebay i was having problems with gear exploding and many people i know will also steer clear of this stuff , it is the unexperienced or newbie fisho that is buying most of this stuff and to start out it is probably suitable

As an example rods - the reel seats coming loose ( not glued properly ), inserts coming out of the guide frames , blanks breaking under load , rollers that are crap and coroding / rusting and when pulling them down to clean them having to replace bolts after only a few weeks use , rods not back boned properly and rolling out of your hand while fighting a fish on 37 kg , single bound guides that do not even cover the guide foot properly and the list goes on .

As an example reels - the bail arms breaking , line rollers siezed , bearings ( cheap chinese ones ) coroding and rusting after a couple of trips , anodizing fading , lettering wearing of , handles breaking , anti reverse mechanisms failing , drags being smoked and buggered after 1 fish becoming jerky and unable to be fished reel foots breaking and the list goes on .

one thing i know is that by getting top dollar / quality gear none of the above is likely to occur not to say it will not happen just less likely to occur .

I am fussy about my fishing tackle and will not buy cheap stuff just to line the pocket of some bloke who says its the same as top end stuff .
Because i know its not just the parts used but also the way its put together as well .

DO YOU SELL SHIMANO , DAIWA , PENN , VAN STAAL , DUEL , ACCURATE, MEGABASS , FISHERMAN , SEED , LOOMIS , SEEKER , CAPE FEAR , ST CROIX OR ANY TOP END STUFF ???.

I don`t know the answer but i think i have worked that one out for myself , i think not .

what i think is you are trying to justify the quality of what you are retailing .

I wonder what your opinion would be if you where selling top end brand name stuff im sure you would not be saying its not worth it then would you ?

[finding_time]

Morston

Cost for all products has little to do with actual manufactoring costs but what the market is prepared to pay for that item!

Getting back to my industry again those $1800 dollars implant components i was refering to in my earlier post sell in the usa for around $900 and in India for $140. They sell them so cheeply in India because if they didn't they simply wouldn't sell them at all! It's what the market can afford! In the U.S they are used to paying less than we are for most items be those food stuffs, white goods ,cars , boat etc you'll find that there all around half what we pay for goods , but the hourly rate of the average worker is also around half of what we earn, it's all relative. Believe it or not but there is a scale called the Big Mac scale and many companys and ecomomists bass the rate of there goods in a country against the big mac rate. Eg
say a Big mac in the US is $1.50 and there product sells there for $1500 and a big mac sells here for $3.00 the company will sell there product here for $3000 The reason is Mac Donalds is such a large company and does such high standards of market research and the bigMac is the same in both country's they just piggy back on there research!


Goggle bigmac scale for some interesting reading or click link

http://www.galatime.com/2007/02/20/e...india-missing/

Ian