Game Over

[Slider]

I'll also add at this point that this situation hasn't always been the case although Earn told me about the same circumstances occurring in Moreton Bay in the 1880s. - no Earn wasn't alive then - was written by a man called Cameron who stated that 'fishing in Moreton Bay was bugger up finished' (or something like that) and he was talking about the affects of netting. Along Teewah Beach it has become steadily worse over the years as, one assumes the fish populations switched on to the net avoidance thing.

[shin25]

Thanks for the time and effort youve put in on your recent posts slider
bloody good reads and very informative

Thanks again Shane

[BLOOEY]

Thanks slider very interesting stuff.

Question though. Netting of pillies in particular. Have seen it a few times in northern nsw where the netters come in and haul in large amounts of pillies. The next day you can go to the exact same gutter and pull some ripper tailor. Do pillies (being the preferred baitfish of tailor) not put out similar distress signals of other fish such as mullet? Or perhaps does the distress of the pillies attract the tailor? Ben

[plaztix]

yeah from what i have always thought the distress of bait fish will attract larger fish. hence why a livie with a hook through its back is so effective.

[Slider]

On the money again Plaztix. Pelagic species don't just swim around hoping to stumble on to schools of baitfish - they wouldn't survive. They listen for the prey species as do dolphins and killer whales as has been documented in studies. In fact, many species that dolphins prey on, stop vocalising when dolphins are in the area so that they aren't heard.

[Slider]

Also Blooey, each fish has a vocalisation that is unique to that species. Just as a bird can be positively identified by it's call, so can fish. That is the reason for the database of vocalisations, so that fish can be identified. In Australia, we can't progress with the technologies being implemented elsewhere in the world because we don't have a database of Australian species. Many of the species that have been recorded overseas are found in Australian waters also and their vocalisations identical - but we haven't bothered as yet to even get the ball rolling by tapping into existing information.

[death_ship]

hey slider there was a lot of bird acton in close at the mouth of the noosa river on sunday and saw 3 or 4 big fish chasing bait in front of teewah in the surf as well, any idea which species aech of these would be?

[Slider]

I'd be guessing ds, but most of the bird activity I've seen south of the 1st cut lately has been over dart schools chasing whitebait. But what you saw could just as easily be tailor, big eye or giant trevs, queenies, tarpon, mac tuna or even bonito, school mackerel - can't say. And I assume you're talking about terns rather than gannets??
Large fish in the surf in front of Teewah could be jew chasing mullet, tailor, tuna, black tips - again I'm guessing.

[straddie]

Heya Slider

I have a feeling of dejavu, have I read this somewhere before? but you asked for feedback so.....

I looked carefully at all your arguments last year and although you have some great observations and have some facts supporting some aspects of those arguments they are really only cobbled together to suit a pre determined conclusion.

I have never questioned fish may adjust their spawning runs to avoid areas where they may feel threatened but what eveidence do you have that they are not spawning in suitablle areas? The need to breed and breed successfully is the most in some cases strong than the need to survive. Fish will go around, over or through obsticles if need be in order to spawn so I don;t think a few mullet are going to deter them for long if they want to spawn in a particular area.

If burley can overcome their flight reponse I would think the need to breed would be far stronger than the need to fill their bellies.

[rando]

Hey Slider
G'day mate
I was on a trip up to Swains reef about 4 years ago, and while it was a line fishing trip, we had 4 spear fishermen on board as well. Two of them were NSW fisheries officers on holiday.

One of them told me he knew when he was onto a good patch of reef when he could hear the bait fish talking ( he named the species too but Ive forgotten)
I seem to remember that he said what they sounded like too, but I wont repeat it, as I know you are sensitive too the possibility of people abusing "audio berley".

These blokes were pretty good spearos and knew their stuff . the 4 of them out fished 13 line fishermen by a substantial margin.
I only remember it just now after reading your piece on different kinds of vocalizations, so his observations, support, at least to some extent, your own.
Cheers
rando

[Slider]

Dejavu indeed Straddie - I think this subject comes up about this time every year for some reason. And I know that you are one person with a good grasp of fish behaviour and I respect any feedback that you offer.
The conclusions I've drawn about spawning success are based on logical consequences of migrations being altered.
If, for example, tailor and mullet schools are forced offshore to feed and spawn during their migrations due to netting activity and their avoidance of. Then I think it is fair to say that any larvae that are produced from these spawnings are going to find it a lot harder to get to an estuary. Fatigue, predators, unfavourable currents, lack of nutrient for a long journey - are factors that come to mind that must reduce the percentage of larvae that reach their destination.
It is apparent that both of these species are spawning offshore, at least on occasions. Tailor spawn as many as 4 times on their northern migration. If stocks are at 'sustainable levels', then these schools should be far more prevalent in the surf gutters where they normally spawn which they are not. So if they are not inshore, then they must be offshore.
The mullet have shown a tendency on recent spawning runs from the Noosa River, to head straight out to sea from the mouth, rather than turn directly left and spawn in the gutters to the north. This would appear to result from them having learnt over the years to avoid the nets that are waiting 400m to the north of the mouth - and along the rest of the beach. The spotter planes are finding the mullet schools, often 10+kms out to sea.
I agree absolutely with you that the need to breed can be an overiding factor in many circumstances and tailor demonstrate this by still spawning in the gutters here on occasions. In human terms, the tailor and mullet may weigh up the pros and cons of spawning offshore vs spawning in the gutters and decide that it's better to have some recruitment, (as per larvae % success that make it back to the estuary) rather than the school be netted and have no recruitment. As to there being any thought process by the fish in this regard - I think they are just reacting to the most significant threat to their species that has ever existed in an instinctive fashion. Some of these schools are still spawning in the gutters, otherwise there would be none taken in the nets. I would think that if the leader fish in a school feel that the coast is clear and there are no alarm signals or pheromones present, then they prob follow a traditional path and spawn where they should. But this could be just a percentage of schools that find themselves migrating in a 'gap' between shots - particularly after the the k8 licenses have left and there are only 1 or 2 netters actively targeting tailor.
Then there is the likelihood that 1st time spawners have not learnt the lessons of their older counterparts and do not avoid the nets as well. Tailor and mullet migrate with same aged fish and these schools would be more vulnerable to netting.
I think in this circumstance, survival of the breeding fish would overide the want to spawn in traditional areas. No point trying to spawn in these areas if the mullet and tailor are netted prior to or during their spawning. These are lessons that have been hard learnt by the fish over decades of netting. And the only 'suitable' locations for these fish to spawn is in the gutters.
Another factor that causes me to believe that they are spawning in areas that are not conducive to maximum recruitment, is the fact that these very species of fish suffered population crashes in the US and Africa. The circumstances are identical in that they were being commercially netted. If the fish had been able to adapt and avoid the nets and spawn in locations that yielded good recruitment, then the stocks wouldn't have crashed. Our own fisheries base quota levels on estimated populations of the species. And I would suggest that they have had their maths fairly correct until recently and the extraction of fish by commercial and recreational fishers on its own would not cause a crash. But despite this, all the evidence points towards a rapid decline in numbers. Again, if the fish had been able to adapt effectively, then why the population drop?

My personal belief is that fish can adapt well enough, if given the opportunity to do so. But it seems to me that the volume of nets doesn't allow them the opportunity. I am certain that a reduced effort would allow for a sustainable fishery with perhaps 3 or 4 K8 licenses working. I am not intent on stopping beach seine netting altogether, but just on finding the balance that allows perpetuation of these species. I also feel that not enough energy has been directed towards netting these fish after they have spawned. It is certainly possible to target both tailor and mullet after spawning and I believe that the same approach would be effective with other species also.

[Slider]

Hey Rando, yeah mate, it's not uncommon knowledge about the audio berley. Some Malaysian reef fishos were using a ringing mobile phone encased in a waterproof case that floated on the surface attached to the boat. Then there was the shark rattles used by the Pacific Islanders. I'd be interested to know Rando what the guys at the Swains had in mind.
The other audio application that is going to happen, is the locating of specific species to target with rod and reel or net. - Hydrophone over the side of the boat that receives fish vocs - vocs identified and situated by on board computer and just a case of driving the boat to where the sound is coming. I know Steve Starling when I was talking to him about this a few years ago, was wanting to use this technology to target jewfish in estuaries. I'm also aware that the technology is currently being developed and it is envisaged that you could purchase a 3 in one unit comprising GPS, sounder and hydrophone/computer.

[Slider]

Dejavu indeed Straddie - I think this subject comes up about this time every year for some reason. And I know that you are one person with a good grasp of fish behaviour and I respect any feedback that you offer.
The conclusions I've drawn about spawning success are based on logical consequences of migrations being altered.
If, for example, tailor and mullet schools are forced offshore to feed and spawn during their migrations due to netting activity and their avoidance of. Then I think it is fair to say that any larvae that are produced from these spawnings are going to find it a lot harder to get to an estuary. Fatigue, predators, unfavourable currents, lack of nutrient for a long journey - are factors that come to mind that must reduce the percentage of larvae that reach their destination.
It is apparent that both of these species are spawning offshore, at least on occasions. Tailor spawn as many as 4 times on their northern migration. If stocks are at 'sustainable levels', then these schools should be far more prevalent in the surf gutters where they normally spawn which they are not. So if they are not inshore, then they must be offshore.
The mullet have shown a tendency on recent spawning runs from the Noosa River, to head straight out to sea from the mouth, rather than turn directly left and spawn in the gutters to the north. This would appear to result from them having learnt over the years to avoid the nets that are waiting 400m to the north of the mouth - and along the rest of the beach. The spotter planes are finding the mullet schools, often 10+kms out to sea.
I agree absolutely with you that the need to breed can be an overiding factor in many circumstances and tailor demonstrate this by still spawning in the gutters here on occasions. In human terms, the tailor and mullet may weigh up the pros and cons of spawning offshore vs spawning in the gutters and decide that it's better to have some recruitment, (as per larvae % success that make it back to the estuary) rather than the school be netted and have no recruitment. As to there being any thought process by the fish in this regard - I think they are just reacting to the most significant threat to their species that has ever existed in an instinctive fashion. Some of these schools are still spawning in the gutters, otherwise there would be none taken in the nets. I would think that if the leader fish in a school feel that the coast is clear and there are no alarm signals or pheromones present, then they prob follow a traditional path and spawn where they should. But this could be just a percentage of schools that find themselves migrating in a 'gap' between shots - particularly after the the k8 licenses have left and there are only 1 or 2 netters actively targeting tailor.
Then there is the likelihood that 1st time spawners have not learnt the lessons of their older counterparts and do not avoid the nets as well. Tailor and mullet migrate with same aged fish and these schools would be more vulnerable to netting.
I think in this circumstance, survival of the breeding fish would overide the want to spawn in traditional areas. No point trying to spawn in these areas if the mullet and tailor are netted prior to or during their spawning. These are lessons that have been hard learnt by the fish over decades of netting. And the only 'suitable' locations for these fish to spawn is in the gutters.
Another factor that causes me to believe that they are spawning in areas that are not conducive to maximum recruitment, is the fact that these very species of fish suffered population crashes in the US and Africa. The circumstances are identical in that they were being commercially netted. If the fish had been able to adapt and avoid the nets and spawn in locations that yielded good recruitment, then the stocks wouldn't have crashed. Our own fisheries base quota levels on estimated populations of the species. And I would suggest that they have had their maths fairly correct until recently and the extraction of fish by commercial and recreational fishers on its own would not cause a crash. But despite this, all the evidence points towards a rapid decline in numbers. Again, if the fish had been able to adapt effectively, then why the population drop?

My personal belief is that fish can adapt well enough, if given the opportunity to do so. But it seems to me that the volume of nets doesn't allow them the opportunity. I am certain that a reduced effort would allow for a sustainable fishery with perhaps 3 or 4 K8 licenses working. I am not intent on stopping beach seine netting altogether, but just on finding the balance that allows perpetuation of these species. I also feel that not enough energy has been directed towards netting these fish after they have spawned. It is certainly possible to target both tailor and mullet after spawning and I believe that the same approach would be effective with other species also.

[skipjack]

Hey lindsay
Do you berly when spinning for Tailor and if so how do you do this?

[straddie]

Bugger. I just spent an hour on a reply and the site crashed again. Im not even going to try and reproduce it.

Slider I think they could stop all pro netting tomorrow as they have in NSW and while it would help us recs to catch a few more of them in the short term it would just be speeding up their eventual stock crash.