Bertram 23/235 Crusader

[MikeC90]

Hey folks, I'm chasing some thoughts and info on the Bertram 23 (likely sedan or open models) and Caribbean Crusader 235.

Having now had the 540F for a few years and got a good idea of how, and how often, we use the boat, I'm toying with the idea of going to something a few classes bigger. Our boating is primarily family stuff (trips to Moreton, occasional overnight stay, a bit of water spots etc), with fishing being secondary at this stage. I like the simple layout of these boats, that offers a big enough cabin for the occasional sleep but prioritises deck space, which is far more useful with all the kids gear and if we take a few extra family or friends. The hard top/sedan versions also seem rather practical for larger water sport items or even a tiny tender. I'm also partial to things that are a bit of fun to drive and don't mind a bit of enthusiastic use, which I believe is very much a box ticked by these hulls.

As I live more than an hour from the water and at 450m elevation, towing a large boat every time we go out isn't all that appealing, so fair odds it would live on a rack at the marina most of the time. Part of me thinks that if it lives there it may as well be a Bertram 25, which seem more plentiful and offer a good chunk more space, but that would make towing it a real pain when I do want or need to move it around...

So, a couple of questions:

- Does the Bertram 23 have fibreglass stringers like the 25? Research suggests the Crusader is typical timber stringers, so wondering if the Bertie is like its big brother or the Caribbean copy.
- Any other key differences between the two models?
- Any personal experience with either, particularly in regards to ride and handling, layout, structural issues etc
- Fuel consumption of these boats or similar? Obviously going to be a rude shock compared to the 540F with Merc 115CT but things I"ve read show anywhere from 1 km/L to nearly 2 km/L... I imagine a modern stern drive or outboard on a 23ft glass boat should be about the middle of that range if driven calmly
- Thoughts on similar alternatives, bearing in mind a budget somewhere in the order of 50-70k

Thanks in advance

[Noelm]

The 23/25 Bertram is a big heavy boat, I think they were all made with timber stringers and so on, they ride good, but need plenty of power, very deep V and not particularly stable for their size, especially the flybridge version, how old a boat are you looking at?

[MikeC90]

Dunno, the few build threads I've been able to find of 25's show large hollow fibreglass stringers, as opposed to the 235 which has a classic timber grid arrangement (Boat Project | Fishing - Fishwrecked.com - Fishing WA. Fishing Photos & Videos).

I'm not overly fussed about stability at rest, not going to spend a great deal of time fishing in slop. Most of the time spent in the boat is on the move, or in calmer waters if anchored up, so ride comfort definitely has greater weighting in the choice. I'm not too fussed about the age... so long as it's in reasonable functional/mechanical condition and not a 'project boat' haha! That's not to say I wouldn't expect to spend money on a re-power, for example, just don't want a rundown mess that needs to be rebuilt from the ground up (unless it was really cheap and I could just pay to have it done and end up at a sensible price point).

[ranmar850]

The 23ft Caribbean is an absolute beast, and the hull is unchanged in even the current models from the original. I would debate what Noel said about stability, I've fished in one and they are a tank. A mate bought one last year, and while opportunities to use it have been a bit limited, it is very impressive indeed. It feels like a very big Reefrunner, next level. He is running a 300 Yamaha, performance is impressive. We compared average fuel useage after a few runs, and while I can't remember exactly what his used, it worked out to only 20% more than my Reefrunner was using with the 150 Merc 4 stroke. You only need relatively low rpm to hit a decent cruise, and it tops out at around 42 knots.
You do realise that the Australian-built Bertrams were built under licence by International marine in Melbourne, in the same factory which now puts out the Caribbean range? There are no "copies" involved. There were doubtless some direct imports, of course. When the Bertam name was sold off, they just continued to build them, using the same moulds, but rebranded as Caribbean. The Reefrunner was redesigned in the early nineties as stern drives were going out of fashion to make them more suitable for outboard power, and they lost nothing in the process. The 23's stayed the same. The bare hull weighs in at exactly 50% more than the Reefrunner, according to Caribbeans' website. They do come in comfortably under the 3.5 tonne limit with full fuel and a 300. The International Marine-built boats of both brands have a reputation for hull longeveity, including any timber parts, that the more fancied Queensland brands could only dream of. But of course, a lot depends on previous owners/modifiers, and any "modifications" they have made along the way.

Get above the 2300, and you are really scaling them up. Even the 2400 requires an overwidth permit, and you are fooling yourself if you think you can legally tow them with a 3.5 tonne rated vehicle, unless they are zero fuel and gear. The 25 is really getting up there, more beam than the 24, more weight, You'll be looking at a 2500/250 series yank tank to tow them.

I know someone up in Exmouth with a Glacier Bay 2680, which he has owned for a long time. Last couple of years he has fished more from his mate's 2400, bought new, fitted with twin 150 Mercs. He is very impressed with it, and Exmouth seas can be about as shitty as it gets, strong winds running against big tides.

There will be lots of 70's and 80's boats out there relatively cheap, so the usual caveats will apply, particularly to stuff which has the original sterndrives. But they can be a money pit. Larger boats left in pens will have aged more quickly than trailered boats kept under cover. Boats without trailers will also be cheaper, as usual. The Hook LIne and Sinker TV show did a couple of outboard conversions on them, 23 and a 25 from memory. Easy to find on Youtube.

[MikeC90]

Thanks ranmar, exactly the sort of feedback I'm after!

I was thinking a 300 hp outboard or modern stern drive would be on the money, and if fuel consumption ends up being around 1.5 km/L that's perfectly workable, not going to be doing huge distances with it. No doubt the stability would be plenty good enough. It's a foot wider than my current boat and I don't find its stability of any concern for what I do... Out of interest, is his example an older boat converted with a pod/extension or a current 2300 designed for the OB?

Yeah, I'm aware that IM built Bertram models under license and carried over those moulds to their own Caribbean branded boats. I suppose I consider them 'copies' because they were not designed by themselves and it seems unlikely that the boats were perfectly identical under the skin. Entirely possible that the US and Aus built Bertram 23's only had timber stringers, might not have been big enough to warrant the fibreglass stringer system of the 25 (of which US and Aus built versions both seem to have that timber free structure - excl transom).

I've watched the HL&S series on both models, quite informative even if the guys are pretty 'hands off' themselves. The 23 looked somewhat overpowered haha! I was very impressed by the bit of footage of it heading seaward in the last episode, pushing through circa 1m slop without a worry in the world

[ranmar850]

His is a modern 2300, about 5 (?) yo. They pull big money over here. IIRC, it was 4yo with 270 hours on the motor when he bought it, and was only on the market for a few days. Went for $124k, with pretty cheap electronics. And this was before the covid madness on used boat and 4wd prices really hit. The actual moulds used for the new ones are the ones they have always used, just the cap has been modernised. I think the only timber in the modern Caribbeans is the very-well encapsulated transom, and the forward bulkhead. I have been told by the shipwrights who are the Caribbean agents in Perth the stringers not timber, but don't know when , or if, that change was made.

To work the fuel consumption think backwards--I work on litres per nm. Below is a screenshot from the Raymarine Dashboard on my Axiom pro, taken on a calm day. I mostly work on 1.2 l/nm, all the way from 20 knots up to about 27. That equates I use l/nm because i know how much fuel I need for a given distance. Only time I believe l/hr is of any use is for extended trolling sessions. And I don't use km as the don't exist seaward of the high water mark. But I can do the conversion. 1.2 l/nm is 1.54km/l. I just remember that when we worked it out he was using 20% more . So that would mean about 1.2 km/l. at cruise speed. I'd call that acceptable for a deep-vee'd soft riding stable hull weighing in on the water at probably around 2.5 tonne or more with a couple of people on board.