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  1. #121

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    I've kept my nose out of this thread for the most of it but i've noticed a point that no one has really brought up yet. To me the superiority of top shelf tackle does not always lie in its ability to catch fish once hooked, but more its ability to deliver a lure accurately and repetitively to its target without fatiguing the angler. Yes for the likes of baiting and trolling etc etc the differences seem more trivial, but when compared to the fact that a stella/saltiga/certate is designed not only to handle big fish in proportion to their size but also to cast with then you really appreciate them.

    I predominantly cast lures, when i fish with bait i have little doubt that something like an alvey will pull up the same fish. Working in a tackle store i know the difference in quality of a 20, 50, 200 and 500 dollar spinning real. I see it every day when old mate comes back with his piece of crap combo looking for a refund. The difference is performance and longevity. A sedona will handle any estuary species you can throw at it (with size and line matched), cast ok, handle braid ok have a reasonable life. But a stella is lighter, stronger, will handle larger fish per size, cast further, lay line better etc etc. It will also last a hell of alot longer as well.

    I would like to see an alvey punch a 20gram slug 70+metres accurately towards a single 15kg longtail, have enough speed to bring it back to the surface if required. Have a smooth enough drag to run 4kg of pressure without popping the hooks or parting the knots on 15lb braid.

    I would like to see and alvey cast a big harbody into thick timber, and then pull out an angry barra. i'd like to see the person doing this be able to keep this up for 12 hours a day in the middle of summer.

    I would like to see an alvey cast a weightless 2inch plastic, land it on the face of a big bream and have enough finesse to handle this fish on 1kg line.

    This is what top shelf tackle is all about, if you donít do it then you wonít get it.

  2. #122

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    Quote Originally Posted by Noelm View Post
    hehe that's funny, 10 years ago spin gear was not up to catching big reefies! maybe Kmart spin gear. don't know too many people who catch big GT's Marlin and Dogtooth everyday! (except in the pub after a few beers) most are out for a feed and/or some fun ,and, back to the very first question, will a Stella catch more fish than an Alvey?? the answer is still NO, and I don't own an Alvey!!!
    OK you dont know too many people that catch GTs , Marlin & Dogtooth ( everyday ) Well I dont know anyone that catches bream or flathead everyday either!

    However there are a bucket load of fishoes that target these fish on a regular basis ! with their high tech spin gear...... Hell there are charter operators that make a living on it!
    Gee .... Look these days we target 50,60,70lb barra on baitcast tackle ..... & now some are starting to use 3000 size spin reels ..... All on the back of technology

    I agree that you probably wouldn't land more reefies ( up & down bait fishing) using a Stella ........ But I do reckon you stand a much better chance of landing an above average fish

    Nagg

  3. #123

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    Quote Originally Posted by oldboot View Post
    Th car comparison is not fair the early holdens and falcons was always an ineficient lumbering piece of iron...... thats why 4 cylinder cotrinas won 3 years in a row and mini won two years running at bathurst in that era.

    But lets no digress onto cars

    cheers

    And what happened after that ? ........... V8s

    Until they changed the regs ..... & some little high tech Jap & Euro Turbo 4cyl won

    But lets keep off cars ( too much similarity with High Tech Stellas & 1970 V8s/Alveys)

    Nagg

  4. #124

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy87 View Post
    I've kept my nose out of this thread for the most of it but i've noticed a point that no one has really brought up yet. To me the superiority of top shelf tackle does not always lie in its ability to catch fish once hooked, but more its ability to deliver a lure accurately and repetitively to its target without fatiguing the angler. Yes for the likes of baiting and trolling etc etc the differences seem more trivial, but when compared to the fact that a stella/saltiga/certate is designed not only to handle big fish in proportion to their size but also to cast with then you really appreciate them.

    I predominantly cast lures, when i fish with bait i have little doubt that something like an alvey will pull up the same fish. Working in a tackle store i know the difference in quality of a 20, 50, 200 and 500 dollar spinning real. I see it every day when old mate comes back with his piece of crap combo looking for a refund. The difference is performance and longevity. A sedona will handle any estuary species you can throw at it (with size and line matched), cast ok, handle braid ok have a reasonable life. But a stella is lighter, stronger, will handle larger fish per size, cast further, lay line better etc etc. It will also last a hell of alot longer as well.

    I would like to see an alvey punch a 20gram slug 70+metres accurately towards a single 15kg longtail, have enough speed to bring it back to the surface if required. Have a smooth enough drag to run 4kg of pressure without popping the hooks or parting the knots on 15lb braid.

    I would like to see and alvey cast a big harbody into thick timber, and then pull out an angry barra. i'd like to see the person doing this be able to keep this up for 12 hours a day in the middle of summer.

    I would like to see an alvey cast a weightless 2inch plastic, land it on the face of a big bream and have enough finesse to handle this fish on 1kg line.

    This is what top shelf tackle is all about, if you donít do it then you wonít get it.
    yes but repetitive casting is not what alvies do best.
    It also not reasonable to expect someone to use braid an an alvey either....... in fact there is less reason to use braid with an Alvey.
    You fish an alvey differently.
    As far as casting a long way and accurately...... that is where an alvey lives...... all thru the sixties, seventies and early eighties blokes were spinning with alvies.

    remember it is traditional to mount an alvey up on a much longer rod than you typicaly will other reels..... you can hurl 20 to 30 grams an awfull long way and more accuratey than most of the modern spin boys would expect.
    As far as getting the slug moving and running higher in the water........ remamber the long rod......to start with is is much higher and if you give the rod a big sweep & wind you can get speeds that you can only dream about buy winding alone.....remember a big alvey isnt far behing a high ratio egg beater or coffee grinder in outright wind speed anyway.

    remember we arent running braid and we have a long rod.... between the elasticity of the mono and the action of the rod you'l have less problems with hook pulling.........and consider you can easlily get lots more than half a Klick of line on the alvey. you arent despirately concerned that you will be spooled.
    remember also a fully optioned alvey has three drag systems and you have direct contact with both the line and the reel.......the tactility of the alvey can not be matched...... you can feel everything that is going on.

    As far as fishing 1kg line well that is a silly game regardless.
    If you believe the advertising 1kg braid will break at 2.5 to 3kg so how different is that to the 6lb mono on my alvey

    But casting lightly wieghted baits is what an alvey does best.......try casting half a peeled prawn with no weight on your plastics rig as see how far you go.
    if you realy want a party trick...... see how far you can cast a unweighted unloaded #2 carlile with your egg beater.
    Now lets talk about hurling soft fragile baits.... a small well tuned alvey on a soft action rod is just the thing.


    I think we all know that a alvey isnt a good reel for repitition casting.... and not there reel of choice for chucking hard bodies.

    thinking about accuracy...... that realy isnt a finction of the reel..... that is mostly down to the rod.

    If you are judging one form of tackle by methods used with others, it not a realy valid thing.

    pulling a barra out of a snag with an alvey..... I'm sure its been done.

    there are always horses for courses
    thats what inexpensive tackle is all about is being able to afford a variety of riggs that are more than adequate in their appropriate situation.

    For $1000
    I could by
    a nice big alvey on a long rod for the surf
    a light soft rod with a small alvey for finesse bait fishing
    a graphite rod with a sweet little egg beater for plastics
    and
    a heavier rod with a bigger egg beater or overhead for a bit of heavier stuff.

    and still have some cash left over for some tackle

    Thats fine & beaut for those of us that don't need a status purchase.

    Now big brother of mine....if he wants guaranteed barra for dinner.....he'll use a hand line & leave the rods in the truck.

    cheers
    Last edited by oldboot; 26-02-2008 at 08:20 PM.

  5. #125

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    Your just playing silly buggers now oldboot. You've completely ignored what i've said and substituted it with your own reality. When you buy a small to mid sized stella/certate then you buy it for luring, i'd like to hear of anyone who has brought one for chucking around unweighted prawns. similarly if you buy a big stella or saltiga you get it for popping and jigging, and you have the added bonus of being able to drop baits down and handle big ooglies. You cannot detach a deck winch and cast a big popper with it.

    I think most people know what an alvey is capable of, but how many alvey fishermen may seen a 1000+ dollar spinning outfit (let alone a 1000 dollar reel)properly put through its paces by someone who knows how to use it. I probably don't think i'd be that surprised if someone was to take the likes a a 650 alvey and say a 12ft rod and have a go at casting a 20 grammer with it. It's simple physics, long rod means less control and less accuracy. Alveys are great for heavy slugs but i think with a rod and reel like that the 20 would get a bit lost during the cast, even if it gets the distance the chances of it landing within 10 metres of the target seems pretty unlikely to me, plus all that extra length and weight is pretty tough to use in a boat for long periods. True the extra length and flex of the mono will absorb alot of the shock but 4kgs over a long rod like that is a tough fight. If we get a spottie season next year i'll have to have a fish off with some of you alvey anglers so you can get a true appreciation of just how far i'm talking and how accurate. your probably thinking of a tss4 when your making your comparison. A tss4 on an ugly stick with 20lb mono will fall 30 metres short of how far my loomis/sustain combo will punch a 20grammer. People put to much emphasis in line per turn rates, a super smooth easy winding stella would flog the pants off how many handle turns/sec you can make for and alvey with the same line/turn rate over long periods.

    I'm sure there are plenty of big barra that have been caught on an alvey, but how many big barra have been caught snag bashing in heavy timber? And how long can the angler keep it up for.

    Yes alveys are cheaper, yes they are really versatile for all soughts of bait fishing and they can even cross over and do a bit of luring. But the notion that they are a superior reel for specialist luring is utter nonsense gibberish. Take the examples i gave before, it's not that the alvey can't do some of these things, it's that it can't do all of these things.

    Many lureres have at least at some point gone through the bait fishing process, but how many started off as lures using top shelf gear and then decided to go to bait drowning? I'm not taking it out of bait fishin i'm just saying that the guys who buy a stellaare probably well aware of what and alvey has to offer before they do so.
    Last edited by Jeremy87; 26-02-2008 at 10:00 PM.

  6. #126

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    Quote Originally Posted by oldboot View Post
    yes but repetitive casting is not what alvies do best.
    It also not reasonable to expect someone to use braid an an alvey either....... in fact there is less reason to use braid with an Alvey.
    You fish an alvey differently.
    As far as casting a long way and accurately...... that is where an alvey lives...... all thru the sixties, seventies and early eighties blokes were spinning with alvies.

    remember it is traditional to mount an alvey up on a much longer rod than you typicaly will other reels..... you can hurl 20 to 30 grams an awfull long way and more accuratey than most of the modern spin boys would expect.
    As far as getting the slug moving and running higher in the water........ remamber the long rod......to start with is is much higher and if you give the rod a big sweep & wind you can get speeds that you can only dream about buy winding alone.....remember a big alvey isnt far behing a high ratio egg beater or coffee grinder in outright wind speed anyway.

    remember we arent running braid and we have a long rod.... between the elasticity of the mono and the action of the rod you'l have less problems with hook pulling.........and consider you can easlily get lots more than half a Klick of line on the alvey. you arent despirately concerned that you will be spooled.
    remember also a fully optioned alvey has three drag systems and you have direct contact with both the line and the reel.......the tactility of the alvey can not be matched...... you can feel everything that is going on.

    As far as fishing 1kg line well that is a silly game regardless.
    If you believe the advertising 1kg braid will break at 2.5 to 3kg so how different is that to the 6lb mono on my alvey

    But casting lightly wieghted baits is what an alvey does best.......try casting half a peeled prawn with no weight on your plastics rig as see how far you go.
    if you realy want a party trick...... see how far you can cast a unweighted unloaded #2 carlile with your egg beater.
    Now lets talk about hurling soft fragile baits.... a small well tuned alvey on a soft action rod is just the thing.


    I think we all know that a alvey isnt a good reel for repitition casting.... and not there reel of choice for chucking hard bodies.

    thinking about accuracy...... that realy isnt a finction of the reel..... that is mostly down to the rod.

    If you are judging one form of tackle by methods used with others, it not a realy valid thing.

    pulling a barra out of a snag with an alvey..... I'm sure its been done.

    there are always horses for courses
    thats what inexpensive tackle is all about is being able to afford a variety of riggs that are more than adequate in their appropriate situation.

    For $1000
    I could by
    a nice big alvey on a long rod for the surf
    a light soft rod with a small alvey for finesse bait fishing
    a graphite rod with a sweet little egg beater for plastics
    and
    a heavier rod with a bigger egg beater or overhead for a bit of heavier stuff.

    and still have some cash left over for some tackle

    Thats fine & beaut for those of us that don't need a status purchase.

    Now big brother of mine....if he wants guaranteed barra for dinner.....he'll use a hand line & leave the rods in the truck.

    cheers
    It took me a full minute to read this.........I want my minute back.

  7. #127

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    Silly me spending all that money on rods and lures for all these years only to realise now (after reading this thread) that reel X catches more fish than reel Y!

    All right, all right, I'm taking the piss... That's reel Z that catches the most fish, everyone knows that!

    More seriously, Alveys wouldn't be so popular if they didn't work, and also sane people wouldn't spend their hard-earned $ on a Stella or a Certate if they didn't work. See, everyone is a winner!

  8. #128

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    I most certainly havn't ignored anything in your post.

    You said " I would like to see an alvey cast a weightless 2" plastic..............."

    I chalenged that with the unweighted prawn example. and followed with the unweighted hook example... I mentioned nothing about a specifc reel.
    The fact remains a well tuned alvey with light line will cast light weights very well indeed, and as far as finesse, you cant beat playing a fish with the line passing thru your fingers and in the case of a small bakalite reel well lubricated... the lightness of touch and lack of a gear train in the way gives you a very direct feel in the fingers of you winding hand.

    as far as the use of an expensive spin reel..... I would expect it would be exactlky the same as using a cheaper similra item if anything easier.

    If I was casting 20 or 30 grams I probably wouldn't use a 650...or a hheavy 12" rod..If I was after good casting distance I would be looking more arround 5" and something arround 10'
    You also have to remember that casting an alvey is very different to the modern style casting with treadlines.......the length of the rod is not an impediment to accuracy......in fact a long rod can make for more accuracy.

    who ever said that an alvey was a superior lure fishing reel.
    If I was chucking lures I would be using an egg beater and when my casting improves sufficiently to be seen in public, a bait caster.

    I know what your preferences are it is obvious from your posts and talking to you at the shop.....From wht I hear you are very good with lures and plastics and like you casting game and your expensive toys.

    Me...I'll use whatever it takes to do the job and like a variety of methods no matter what I do.
    I have some nice egg beaters and will by a decent " Reel of Satan" when my casting improves...... but I also like what an alvey can do for me and am disapointed by the condecentive attitude of dedicated geared reel devotees to the Alvey and it ways.

    Very few of us start out with top shelf gear, and most of us start out with stinky bait.......It is most unfair to consider fishing bait to be a backward step.

    there are a lot of us that consider casting and retreving till you arm drops of a silly game anyway.

    No worries jamie I'll fish with you,....... but I cant promise I'll use an alvey...... but I might .

    cheers

  9. #129

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    Both Jeremy87 and oldboot bring up some good points but I think that most people would use whatís at there disposal.

    I have seen people be it boats,jetty or beach using the wrong gear,that might be cause thatís all they got.i have been fishing for over 40 years and I have different types of reels for different types of fishing and places be it beach or boat.

    It comes down to what fish one is targeting and is it boat,jetty,river or beach.

    I love using my alveys but that will be mainly for beach shark or mulloway,I might use the alvey off the boat bottom bouncing looking for those big predators but I wouldnít use a smaller size alvey for garfish or whiting,thatís where spinners come in to it or even a bait caster,depends what oneís got at there disposal.

    A lot of these young folk that walk into a tackle store looking for a reel and while looking through the range available would look past the alveys as non compliable but a lot of us grew up using alveys and we know what they can do for us.But it wonít work miracles on all fish species or locations..

  10. #130

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    Casting accuracy & alvey should not be used in the same sentence I couldn't cast one to save my life ( 45 deg from the intended direction) ...... give me an overhead anyday.
    As far as I'm concerned an Alvey is a cheap ( but functional) piece of kit ...... On a beach , rocks or bottom bashing ....... but it is basic!
    Now unless you have actually used a high quality spin reel ...... you would have no idea of what it is capable of nor the enjoyment of using such tackle. So its really difficult for judgement to be passed (dont you think ?) On the other side of the coin Fortunately most of the pro technology lot ,would have used an Alvey or two over the years ...... & so are more qualified to give an opinion.... when comparing the two.
    I think this argument/discussion is more about what you are willing ( or not willing) to spend on your sport ........ & that's fine ( just like my sister in law with her coke bottle with line wrapped on it!)

    Nagg

  11. #131

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    OK, can't help myself, lets look at the very first post/question, will an Alvey with the same bait, line, hook etc, catch more fish than a Stella the answer is STILL a resounding NO, it has Jack all to do with Technology, how many hundreds of thermo nuclear bearings it has, it is so simple, any Fish has got no idea how much the reel costs or it's operating principal when it swims by and sees a well presented Bait and is hungry, there was never any mention of casting for a week non stop, catching 50 Marlin in a day or anything else, it was a fairly simple straight forward question (well I thought anyway) but then I am a simple guy, but I do like new "gizmos" and technology, never said I didn't, BUT it will NOT catch more fish or last any longer than an Alvey, that's my bit!

  12. #132

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    ooops I forgot to add, Naggs sister with her Coke Bottle, if she also had the same line, hook and all the rst will also have as much chance of hooking as many fish as a Stella an Alvey or a tiagra, it will not matter, this may come as a surprise to some, THE FISH DOES NOT KNOW!!!! they are simple minded creatures (like me) now after it is hooked, it COULD be much more fun on a Stella, but then maybe not, a good fish on a handline can be very memorable, been there and done that!!!

  13. #133

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    The line bit is right Noelm, but show me a $20 Alvey you would use on a reef, it is as relevant [or silly] as using a Stella on a reef for bottom fishing with bait .

  14. #134

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    you are still missing the whole point of the first question, all things being equal, the fish does not know what is in use, so it will NOT catch more fish, and I am sure there is a million cheap Alveys in use for reef fishing, as well as Stellas bait fishing, it will all come down to your wallet, if you have a load of cash, then why not use the most expensive item to do whatever you want??? geees now I am getting away from the original question!!!

  15. #135

    Re: $1000 stella versus an old alvey

    So Banshee, you wasted your minute :cry: who said this was a serious question.....we all know that threads like this are a complete waste of time, but so is a large portion of the rubbish we talk on forums.

    regardless of your field of endeavor you will find similar arguments, price V quality, this brand or method V that, the respondents at the various ends of the scale almost without exception will not conceed that the other has a valid position or point.

    The types at the low end of the market will state with pride that"I'd never spend that much on an XYZ & people that do have more money than sence", while those at the top end will look down on the "poor fools" and their budjet priced gear and say "they have no idea how bad their gear is because they have never used decent stuff".
    For me the truth of the matter is somewhere in between ( isn't it always).

    For example.
    I have woodworking friends who have some very expensive hand planes and other tools, yeh they are very nice to use and look at. I have neither the money to spend nor the need for that sort of equipment. I happy to get the best out of my modest tools.
    Speaking of woodies.......if you want to see a spirited argument, look at any thread on sharpening...... same, same but with a relegious zeel worthy of the middle east.

    So for the most part these threads are pointless.... but for those who want to learn there my be a small gem or two to be had..... even if it is.....don't believe everything a zellot says or believes.

    It is helpfull to know where the bloke behind the tackle store counter stands (yeh I know behind the counter).......If he has a zellous like for a particular style, you can factor that when considering his advice......I not saying his advice is bad... I am saying it is more valuable when tempered with the knoweledge of his preferences.

    When it comes down to it its all a waste of time

    cheers

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