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Thread: Who Is Telling The Most Lies - And Who Is Going To Get Caught Out First

  1. #196

    Re: Who Is Telling The Most Lies - And Who Is Going To Get Caught Out First

    Billfisher and 4x4 I dislike debating this topic on here but your comments do require a reply.
    While I do not agree with the ban on any particular firearm used by a legal and law abiding owner for legal purposes, I think especially in the case of 4x4 you miss the point and it should be noted here that very few used the AK47 type rifles for "hunting as per long range etc" , they were more used for cull type extermination purposes or very close range in heavy scrub where that type of firearm excells.
    It would be a bit like using a game fishing rod and reel for fly fishing or a 4wd as a courier vehicle in the city or for that matter having any 4 wd in the city especially one with a bull bar (heaven forbid).
    I don't know why these firearms keep getting bought up as they were only a small part of the whole package and affected a very small percentage of shooters and have had no effect on murder or suicide rates or armed robbery.
    Lingus and the LDP have another agenda and that is personal freedom and liberty at all costs irrespective of the wider community concern or need and really have no intention of arguing that out here as I just can't be bothered.
    Some say firearms of any sort are not needed and technically that is probably correct as it is correct to say you don't need to fish or use a 4wd except for extreme cases.
    I actually very rarely use a firearm but occasionally get asked to cull a few foxes or roo's (tags of course) but most hunting now is with dogs and a knife or a rod.
    It's pointless to try and force you to change your perceptions of firearms as it is a waste asking me to appreciate firearms as such and not a tool or a 4x4 as anything but a workhorse or fishing/hunting as anything but just being there and catching a feed or in the case of pigging paying expenses and not wasting a resource, never been interested in any sort of trophies but keep the occasional photo's.
    Where we all have a problem though is there are many people in the community who have problems with any or all of us conducting any activities that interact with the environment which in their view is not allowable either due to a phobia, bad experience or just another agenda such as animal liberation or they are control freaks.
    There is a common thread running through all our activities and many participate in many related activities, there are extreme side issues such as presented here by Derek and lingus's argument which in most cases are not related/relevant or are just stir value.
    While we can find positive and common values and work to protect the whole lifestyle issue we have a chance but if we go off thinking we are all better than everybody else and secure we will get picked off one by one.
    There is a balance between the extremes of total control by some for whatever reasons and total liberty and freedoms by others for again whatever reasons and we need to be fair dinkum and take into account the long term future of our environment and access to it in the way we desire as well as LEGITIMATE and GENUINE concerns of others besides ourselves.
    just because you don't need something doesn't mean you shouldn' be able to obtain or use it legally and without affecting anyone one elses space.

  2. #197

    Re: Who Is Telling The Most Lies - And Who Is Going To Get Caught Out First

    Quote Originally Posted by LINGUS View Post
    Place as much ink on paper as you like - quote as many cases as you like - but the simple fact is that people have been emotionally and financially broken - by both the criminal(s) who initiated 'event(s)', and subsequently the Police and the system which make a living thereafter as they follow process. It's the poor sods who are set upon by scumbags, who must pay handsomly for Justice. Anybody who believes that such a system is just, simply has rocks in their heads or hasn't yet experienced 'it all'.
    There has got be a balance Lingus. If the 'self defence' case is given too much weight it opens the way for abuse. Eg a ready excuse for murder or excessive vigilante behaviour. i don't think we will have a safer community if everyone is armed to the teeth either.

    Quote Originally Posted by LINGUS View Post
    BILLFISHER #193 NO - I did not "tell you that they are necessary to enjoy hunting" - never said nor implied that. Assumptions often backfire.

    Your statement "Far from being futile the laws have worked" Sorry to disillusion you, but methinks that Don Weatherburn - Head honcho of NSW Bureau of Crime Stats said openly in Oct 2005 (references available) might know a bit more than you.
    "I would need to see more convincing evidence than there is to be able to say that gun laws have had any effect," Dr Weatherburn said. "The best that could be said for the tougher laws is there has been no other mass killing using firearms [since Port Arthur]." (pc: chopping them up into barrels, or burning down hostels, or blowing them up is ignored - only gun related mass murders matter!)
    Well if they are not necessary for hunting what is the big deal in banning them in the interest of public safety?

    I don't need Dr Weatherburn to confirm the obvious. There were 10 massacres in the 1990's resulting in 100 deaths. This is what the gun laws were aimed at. There hasn't been one such rampage involving semi automatics in the ten years since they were banned.

  3. #198

    Re: Who Is Telling The Most Lies - And Who Is Going To Get Caught Out First

    Billfisher - you said:
    "There has got be a balance Lingus." I totally agree. A balance that is functional yet not discriminatory. What we have seen and will see is no attempt for a functional system, but continual destruction of demons, and to no real gain.

    "If the 'self defence' case is given too much weight it opens the way for abuse. Eg a ready excuse for murder or excessive vigilante behaviour. i don't think we will have a safer community if everyone is armed to the teeth either." I agree with you and am not suggesting that at all.

    "Well if they are not necessary for hunting what is the big deal in banning them in the interest of public safety?" You are obviously missing the point and falling into the trap where the demons are stored. Simply put - the type of firearm matters none. It might be (nasty) black, big, small, long or short or 'self loading'. Some people hunt pigs, and a self loading is a valuable tool to have. There are many examples of legitimate uses for 'self loading' firearms - that's not the point. The point is - restriction to accredited users. Refer to next comments.

    "There were 10 massacres in the 1990's resulting in 100 deaths. This is what the gun laws were aimed at." I agree with you - and a benefit from them was mandatory safe storage and inspections. Firearms are potentially dangerous tools, and should be restricted items.

    "There hasn't been one such rampage involving semi automatics in the ten years since they were banned."
    Because such events are rare, to draw a cause effect conclusion is statistically invalid. That said - I agree that some benefits seem to have followed, and quite possibly a factor in your claim - time will tell. However it's not just the 'semi-auto' component to the changes, but a better licensing regime and vetting of persons, as well as storage requirements. ALL people I know did not need the laws - they already safely stored their firearms, and that includes me.

    However - try as you may to stop rare events - many other tools are used to kill others en masse. Cars, petrol, fire, bombs, hacking tools - the list goes on. But, do we ban or restrict cars, petrol, fire, bombs and kinves-axes etc? NO. Yet they are involved in FAR more killing than firearms.

    The fact is - people have an irrational fear of firearms. That thanks to the decades of misinformation and indoctrination by media and entertainment industries, the only use a firearm has is to kill, maim, or commit crime and violence. Just turn on your TV - guns and gratituous violence are portrayed nightly and as the solution to most everything. That is why the black dog syndrome, in conjunction with a demon (semi auto etc) is effective. Simply put - As criminals have guns, then those who have guns must be criminals. It works because most people in our urban world are ignorant in relation to firearms.

    We would be better off with a proper firearm management system in place (trust me - I DO know what I am talking about here) that would manage both firearms and ownership, but by providing firearm owners with tangible benefits, a system that would gain their cooperation and protect them from out of control governments and knee kerk government actions. It would force governments and the eternal doogooders to deal with the root causes.

    The real issue in society is not 'semi-auto' or indeed 'guns', but the effect populist media and so called 'entertainment' has on the monds of many people - particularly youth who are desensitised to violence and the effects of violence. Couple that to the breakdown in family structure and personal discipline generally, and the recipe is disaster. Just look at USA or here and the unfathomable violence that is being used by youth on the streets daily.

    Society is SICK and must command politicians to stop playing games and examine their policies and bureaucracies to deal with the root causes. Will we achieve that here - heck no, but it's a start to understanding by discussing differing views for a positive outcome.
    PC

  4. #199

    Re: Who Is Telling The Most Lies - And Who Is Going To Get Caught Out First

    This thread is starting to become a slanging match between individuals and and against individuals and last lost it's debate is now closed.
    Regards

    mod5

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