What knot & why?

[Owen]

Firstly let me start out by saying I'm pretty much a self taught fisher bloke, so if this seems like a dumb question put it down to having intimate knowledge of all things fishing not being genetic :D

Just about everywhere I read these days people are using a bimini twist and/or albright knot (or some other combination of exotic knots).
I finally decided to give a bimini twist a go the other day and managed to do it after a couple of goes.
Just wondering if it really is demonstrably better, or are we all just following the lemming in front of us?
For years I've pretty much used one knot (a half blood knot) and I've only had a couple let go. When I tried braid I found it was hopeless and had to change to a palomar knot.
Both are pretty easy and quick to tie when bobbing around in a tinnie. Not something I'd say for a bimini twist.
So are they really worth the effort?
Have you noticed more lost fish when you didn't use one?
Or are we all just using what grandad taught us, or what the expert in the fishing mag reckons?

cheers,

Owen

[DR]

i mainly use a uni knot for most things..
if in the mood i will start with a short double using a spider hitch, then add the leader with an albright or if in a hurry use a double uni, then usually add hooks, sinkers, jig heads etc. again with a uni.
when using braids i always add a few extra turns & a dollop of super glue.
can't remember the last time i had a problem..

[simonpp82]

Owen,
As u probably allready know a lines knot strength is lower than its rated breaking strain.. The bimini when done properly is a 100% strength knot and when the double is tied to the leader (using whichever knot you use) it effectively doubles the knot strength at that point, putting it over the breaking strain of the main line. So if your using 6kg line and 10kg leader for eg, its good to know it should be at least the strength of the main line all the way down to the lure. Just my 2 cents. ;)

[krazyfisher]

a bimini twist is used to make a double and it is the best way to make a double so if the fish are fighting hard yes it does make a differance. if you use the best knot than it is one less thing to worry about. I was told how to do a bimini about 3yrs ago on this site by mackmauler and after a lot of practice I can now tie them in the dark if I have too. each knot has its good and bad and I dont think that there is on knot that can do everything. I myself use bimimi, spider hitch, full blood , thumb knot, advanced albright and perfectioo loop and I find that enough for barra, tuna, macks,gt's, trout.
the more knots you know the better remember knoledge is power ;)

[Tony_N]

As the others have said - the bimini is used to make the double and I think most people then tie a leader to that using their choice of knots #(usually a double uni* or albright). # Then use your preferred knot for terminal tackle - I use uni mostly, but lately have been happy with the palomar. Neither of these knots slip and they both maintain strength. #I have never tied terminal tackle to braid/fusion line. #

Tony

*Don't do what I did when I started to tie the double uni - ie tie a uni in one line and then a uni in the other like I was tying a terminal knot in each line. Doh!! This makes for a joining knot of minimal strength. The braid cuts straight through the mono line with only slight pressure

[straddie]

Heya Owen

One thing I find with fishing gear is new and improved is rarely better. A lot of the quoted percentages of breaking strength are only applicable to knots tied on a certain b/s or brand of line.

Test new knots against what you are already using before taking them to the water as you will find they are often not what they are cracked up to be.

[Cheech]

That is very good advice from Straddie. This is why...

Yesterday I decided to do a few break tests as I have had problems with leaders breaking lately after switching to Vanish line as a leader. In the end I think it would have been about 50 separate tests that I did. The results surprised me.

I usually use a double uni for my light gear and a bimini with a braid/leader knot (that is the name of the knot) for my heavy gear. Then a uni at the hook. Part of the testing I wanted to compare the double uni with the braid/leader knot. I can do a bimini quickly so was going to switch to it for all my gear if it worked out better.

What I found was that the bimini was weaker than the uni in the light line classes. When testing 10lb fireline that had a uni each anchour end and the bimini in the middle, the bimini always gave way before the uni. This reversed when getting into heavier braid from 14lb up.

That was a surprise. So my strongest light line leader knot is the good old uni. When using 10lb braid and 20lb vanish leader, I thought I would have mixed results in which line gave way first considering braid is suppose to break at almost double it's rating. This did not happen. The braid gave way before the leader every time.

The next comparison I did was to work out if there was a difference between the double uni and the single uni at the hook. I have long thought that the double uni was stronger, but had no facts to back it up. The tests proved this to be correct. When testing with the 10lb/20lb combo, I found that the braid/leader uni consistently broke at around the 12 - 13lb mark, but the terminal end uni consistently broke at a lower strain. As mentioned earlier, around the 10lb mark.

This in a way is a good thing because if something has to give, then I would prefer it to be at the hook rather than the leader so that I am not continually replacing leaders.

I also did a few straight line tests to see what the braid and leaders broke at. At the start I was using binini's, but these were no good as explained above when testing the lighter braid because they continually broke at about 8lb when testing 10lb braid. I then started to anchour each end with just lots of wraps so that there was no weak point. When I did this, I then had the 10lb braid breaking at 14-15lb . 14lb braid was breaking at around 20lb.

With the straight leader tests, I found that the vanish leader consistantly broke at around 80% of it's stated class. Remembering that this was done with no weak points, so would have expected it to have been closer to the stated class.

When I tested my 20lb penn 10x leader, I found that it consistently broke at the full 20lbs, sometimes up to 22lbs.

I have 2 more things I want to test. One of them I will try to get to today. That is to test a snelled hook. If this breaks above the terminal uni, but at or below the double uni leader join, then this will be the best knot combination for me in the light line class.

With all the above in mind, there is still the consideration of abrasion. I am pretty sure that every time I have had a problem recently with leaders giving way has been due to weak spots on the leader due to being taken around rocks. This is why I never had a problem in the past because the penn 10x is very abrasion resistant. The next test I want to do is get a few different leader materials and test. The ideal leader for me will be flurocarbon that is reasonably subtle and very abrasion resistant. Sort of a combination between the vanish and the penn.

In heavy line classes, As mentioned above, I have never had a problem with either a double uni or a braid/leader knot that uses a bimini. I cannot ever recall any of the knots failing me. That also goes for the uni at the terminal end. It never breaks at the hook. The decision I have between these 2 knots in heavy class is the lumpyness through the guides.

Cheech

[Volvo]

:)I go by the "Suck it n see" method and if it suits my method of fishing without letting go or give me too much trouble if it has to run out along the guides of my rods i use it. It also has to be easy to tie under darkness if i dont want to or cant light up a torch..
Has to be a "Second nature " knot in the easy department..
If meets these standards it takes a place in my knots department lol..
Cheers

[Jeremy]

I believe (but I may be wrong) that doubles originally come from the sportfishing scene with light lines. When a fish is close to the boat, the double line at the end of the main line gives a little extra stretch for when the fish is close to the boat. The point about knot strength is also very valid. When using light mono lines, it is imperative to use a heavier leader and the double makes a much stronger knot to tie to the leader. There are several knots available for tying a double, from the spider hitch, bimini, plait, and a few others which I don't know how to tie such as the slim beauty. The purpose of these knots is to achieve as close as possible to 100% knot strength.

So for sportfishing purposes using light mono lines, the bimini - or an equivalent - is essential.

Jeremy

[jeffo]

krazyfisher- i disagree.. the aussie plait is the best double knot IMO.

[Leo_N.]

krazyfisher- i disagree.. the aussie plait is the best double knot IMO.


True, but you have to take time into consideration.

[Owen]

Very interesting.
Especially Cheech's tests.
It'd be good to see the apparatus used in the test cheech. Maybe a pic of how you conducted them?

OK, so we all see to accept that in many cases a bimini (or at least a double) is a good thing, but I also note that a lot if you guys that are saying so seem to predominately (based on your other posts that I've read over time) chase pelagics, either with lures or live baits.
I understand using a double for this, but I've seen a trend (mainly in magazines) recommending doubles for bottom bashing as well.
Normally I run my braid to a swivel & then run a mono leader with a running sinker to the hook.

Are you guys that are running doubles (for other than lures etc) using a wind on leader?

Where are you running your sinker, swivel etc?
Just talking generally here, as in relative to the double/leader. I realise that different rigs are best suited to different conditions and species.

Hope that makes sense :)

cheers,

Owen

[DALEPRICE]

jeffo, is that aussie plait a lot more crittical for you
regarding what you are chasing........
eg, taking your gear to the limit.....
cheers dale
not sure if that made sense :-?

[the_bomber]

Check out this article in relation to braided lines and effect of knots on breaking strain :
http://www.westernangler.com.au/default.asp?action=article&ID=87

[krazyfisher]

jeffo
you are very right.
I didnt talk about plaits as 1 I dont use them so forgot about them. 2. when I have tried them it has taken me too long to do. and for most of my fishing I use a heaver line class than I need so the knot strenght is not as inportant as if I were fishing lighter classes.

p.s. is there an easy plait to tie

[jeffo]

the plait is dead easy once you know how... easiest when some one shows you how.

with alot of practice they are just as quick as a bimini.

dale- i see what your trying to say. for chasing gamefish (marlin and sails mainly) i over build everything. All my rigging probably probably goes a few steps further than what most would think is needed. but i figure if one puts in so many hours and $$ to get connected to a good fish then you might as well have 110% faith in all your gear.

[SeaSaw]

Owen,

Since braid came into fashion, I have always tied a double in the end for bottom bashing. #I then attach a lenght of mono using a Braid Leader Knot, which goes through the guides not problems. #The mono gives you some abbrasion resistance and a little bit of stretch. #I use around 5m of mono for bottom bashing, which is essential in rough country where there are big fish on offer. #If I was fishing braid straight onto a trace, then I would have missed many big fish due to being rubbed off on the bottom. #

I have previously always used a bimini twist for the double, but am now using the Aussie Plait as I find it much easier and quicker to tie out on the water if the conditions are rough. #The Plait also allows you to make the double any lenght you want for even more security.

Cheers,

Mark

[Cheech]

Did another 20 odd tests yesterday to compare terminal knots. Compared uni against locked blood against snell. What I found was that the blood was slightly better than the uni, and both were stronger than the snell. With 10lb leader, Snell was breaking at around 8-9 lb, uni at around 10-12lb and blood at around 11-13lb.

Perhaps the snell is better with thicker line classes?

I did so many tests on just these 3 knots because I was getting consistent variations with different sections of the leader. I either have a bad batch of vanish, or vanish sucks. I would get good results from all knots for a couple of metres of leader, and then start getting bad results from all, and then they would all start to get better again. As I did so many tests, I am convinced that the line has reasonably big variations from section to section. Either quality control problems or a bad batch.

I was also getting these bigger than expected similar variations with the 12lb vanish as well.

Last set of tests I wanted to do,,,,, I bought a roll of surecatch flurocarbon leader tonight in the same 20lb. The results were much better. I did a half dozen tests and every test gave a rating within 2lb of each other, and all were between 13-15lb. This is more what I was expecting to find with the vanish.

I only bothered testing with uni's as I prefer this knot and it was close to the blood knot on my other tests. What was interesting was that a couple of the tests I did tonight, the line broke in the middle rather than at the knot, which indicates that the uni was braking at close to the breaking strain of the line.

The other thing about the surecatch is that it is a bit thinner and a bit stiffer which indicates that it may have a bit better abrasion resistance. Now I just need the wind to drop to give it a water test. It is looking like surecatch may be my new favorite leader.

Cheech

[LizardWizard]

BIMINI - BRISTOL and PALOMAR
100% (or as close to it as your ever going to get)

to join gel spun line (fused like "fireline", or braid) to leader line:
make a Bimini Twist (100%) in the main line, and join the Leader to the main line using a Bristol Knot (also known as the "no name knot")

if a bimini twist is not an option (your standing in 3 feet of water, sinking into the unstable mud and sand, with gear hanging off you) then the double uni (90 - 100%) is the next prefered option. this knot is strong if it is done well and is suited to the line. for some applications (ie using fireline etc) it may be necessary to double over the thinner main line to prevent it cutting through the finished double uni knot.

the cleanest knot for joining two mono lines is the Double-Uni knot


knots in mono/leader to swivels and hooks:
always use Palomar (75 - 100%)
1. attach swivel to leader/trace line using Palomar
2. if your using weight (usual method for bait fishing), slide it onto the main line now
3. attach the swivelled leader to the main line using a Palomar
4. attach the hook to the end using a Palomar
** if you want to automatically create a weak point, or if you happen to forget the order and you join the swivel to the weighted main line first, then just use a clinched blood knot to attach the leader/trace line to the swivel, then finish with a Palomar to the hook.
(the weak point is the clinched blood knot)

only three things can break...
your line, your rod, or your reel, but you will NEVER break the Bimini-Bristol combo, Double-Uni or Palomar knots.

when using the Bimini-Bristol Double-Uni and Palomar knots it becomes necessary to consider location of weak points. one method is to tie a simple overhand knot in the line just above the hook, so that even if you get snagged, you could (with a suitable glove) pull the main line until the line breaks at the knotted point.

an alternative to creating a weak point is to rig the bait or lure so that it is "snagless".

i used to use clinched blood knots, and watched many great fish swim away untethered.

since using the Bimini-Bristol and the Palomar, i have NEVER had ANY rigs lost due to weak knots. i identify a weak knot as anytime i pull in the bare line and look at the end to find a squiggle of mono line showing what used to be a knot. this point is further evidenced by the fact that i am now pulling in bigger fish on lighter gear than i ever caught on the common clinched blood knot.

the only losses suffered now are from the following....
1. boats running over my line and i have to cut it ASAP before they take the whole spool (not cheap at 60 bucks a go)
2. big fish taking ultra light gear into enemy territory, there is no return from the lair of the great red dragon called "Mangrove Jack"
3. by unknowingly flicking or trolling a lure into a snag, then nailing it in so it will never come out
4. theiving crabs stealing quality fish, prawns, and yabbies like im supplying them a free seafood smorgasboard, and i guess they use the hook as a toothpick, and the cut line as floss after the meal.

a good article about the Bimini-Bristol combo is found here...
http://georgepoveromo.com/lineleaderconnection.htm

[allniter]

After using straight mono to hook for years, i too tried a couple of metres of
vanish as leader .
Cheech is not alone with his opinion about vanish...... i won't be purchasing another roll.
I have gone back to straight mono to the hook - less knots, more line stretch, and more fish in the boat.
keeping it simple works for me.

[Cheech]

Have since used the Surecatch leader. It is great. Even when I had lots of nicks in it from rocks and where the old leader would have broken, this stuff hung in there. It is my new fav leader.

Lizard,

I had a look at the Bristol knot. It is actually the same as the Braid/Leader knot I spoke about earlier. Apart from one minor difference. The Bristol starts by running through the loop prior to the spirals around the braid, but the braid/leader knot goes straight into the spirals.

(note that the braid/leader is usually done by wrapping the braid around the leader, but the result is exactly the same)

I tied a few of each to compare, and found that sometimes with the bristol knot I had the braid at the tag end of the braid slip up the spiral on top of itself. The Braid/leader did not do that as much so I actually found not going through the loop at the start gave a cleaner more uniform knot. You may want to give that a try.

Cheech

[Owen]

Have since used the Surecatch leader. It is great. Even when I had lots of nicks in it from rocks and where the old leader would have broken, this stuff hung in there. It is my new fav leader.


What was your old stuff Cheech?


Thanks for all the input guys.
I'm sure it's not only I have have benfitted from it.

cheers,
Owen