Acceptable practice

[Kerry]

What's the views regarding "recreational" fishers doing a reef charter (something like 10-12 persons for 7-10 days) but arriving complete with the ute's, trailers etc (plus the freezers/ice boxes etc).

I've heard lots of reasons (excuses) from "oh them, there to keep our beer cold as we don't like yours" to probably the easist one to grasp "to offset the cost of the trip".

Might be legal >:( but it's really a pi.. poor atitude.

Cheers, Kerry.

[Jack_Lives_Here]

Never been on an extended charter but wouldn't the group still be subject to the "in possession bag limits", as set by Qld Fisheries, whether they are out one day or one week ?????

[Katrina]

??? As long as people are obeying the relevant rules and regulations, what is the problem? ::)

[Jack_Lives_Here]

Ditto Katrina. I have no idea why someone would question lawful practices. As long as they stick to the regs - and I reckon a charter capt wouldn't want to lose his lively hood for a few extra fish. He / she is going to monitor the catch and rest areas that have previously been fished.
All above board - big thumbs up from me.

[craigie]

Not sure what the problem is here???

I do a once a year 4 day offshore Charter with 10 other Fishos, where we go out full intending to catch ourselves a few feeds of Reef Fish. The whole exercise includes a 1000 km Road trip and a couple of nights stop over in Port.

Yes, we take an old Fridge strapped into a Box Trailer.It's a very effective way of transporting whole Reef Fish(sticking to the regulations and not filleting and skinning our catch at sea) and keeping them in perfect condition for our arrival home. That's our reason, certainly don't need to make any "Excuses" ???

Sorry Kerry, I have to agree with the other guy's( that also includes you Katrina, I know your a Gal not a guy), If It's all done within the current Legislation, then your a bit out of line having a dig at Law abiding citizens.
Maybe you should think about the Voluntary Fisheries Liason Program, where you would get the opportunity to "Steer" wayward Anglers back onto the right course as there are plenty that are not law abiding.

The alternative to Charter Skippers taking out paying clients (most of us are only average to poor offshore Fisherman anyhow) is to take out there Pro Fisherman mates and give the reefs a good old "Touch up". So I see the Charter Operationas as much more friendly alternative for the environment.

Kerry, just to put things into better perspective, I have yet to take home a fish to eat this year and I'm on the water every week. Don't mind a bit of Catch and Relaese most of the time.

Enjoy your Fishing !!!

Cheers
Craigie.

[Lucky_Phill]

Ditto to most of the above Kerry.

There is set bag and size limits, and I believe that the majority of charter operators stick strictly to these. The charter operator has to protect his livelyhood as well as keep his customers happy.

I have been on numerous charters to various destinations.

These days, we tend to fillet our fish at sea ( skin on ) and drop the carcass in the ocean for others to feed on, rather than dump them in the bin at home. The Skipper also takes detailed notes of catch numbers, wieghts and sizes and areas. The Queensland Fisheries Service ( I believe ) require this for sustainability of particular fishing areas and species.

I personally think there is too many charter operators in Brisbane, Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast and Hervey Bay.

But, at this stage, everyone is acting within the law.

The 7 - 10 day charter people are the once a year folk who pay out upwards of $1200 for their once a year trip to stock the little freezer at home. As opposed to the once a week guy who can still almost get his bag limit every week of the year.

I think a look at the big picture will help you see your way clear. The most destructive effort comes from professional fishing. No doubt.

And to those guys that do a once a year, and flog the fish off to " offset the cost of the trip "...... :P

[Fitzy]

We have avenues that can be followed if we aren't happy with any fisheries rules. The easiest of these is via Sunfish, ANSA, FFSAQ affiliated club membership. There is a fisheries review of almost all facets of the fisheries act sceduled every 5 years these days.
The altenative is to comment on the public response forms that are freely available at these times.
With regard to offshore charter boat fishing trips, I was under the impression that this area was specifically addressed in the last review. Hence the "skin on" & total "in possession" laws.
I'd rather see a charter boat out there than a non-species-specific kill everything commercial pro boat. Others may well dis-agree.

Cheers,

Fitzy..

[Vern_Veitch]

I was going to leave this one alone but here goes:
First up, let's get rid of the misconception that someone who owns a private boat can get out every day or every weekend and catch their bag limit. Even on the Gold Coast weather will prevent many trips as will other commitments with childrens sport and the like. In addition, sometimes the fish are not on the bite no matter how good a fisher you are. If you are talking reef fishing up north, well in Mackay the reef is 70 nautical miles from the coast, Townsville is at least 40 and even in Cairns a short trip is 15 NM. Try that in your average 15 to 25 knot Sou-easterlies. In 2000, I know of at least one charter operator who cancelled 35 weekend trips due to weather.
Secondly, nothing gives the general public and especially the greenies a worse impression than seeing the back of a boat deck covered in fish regardless of whether it is legal or not. It weakens our position in fishery management forums and the commercial sector is very quick to point and say that each individual cannot possibly be using all those fish for their own consumption. In some cases they are possibly right.
In this day and with the pressure on the resource it is no longer acceptable for "recreational" fishers to be providing fish for the local community whether it be for cash or favours, besides, last time I looked at the dictionary, there was nothing about paying for your efforts in the definition of recreational. Don't forget, selling for profit or favours is illegal whether those that do it like to think of it that way or not.
Thirdly, it matters not how you get to the reef, if you are recreational then the bag limit should be the same. Just because you go out with a charter operator should not be a licence to buy an extended bag limit. What about the guy who chooses to tow his boat north and have a holiday in a caravan park for 2 weeks before returning. Shouldn't he have the same in possession limit as someone who takes a charter. He probably spends more.
This is a topical subject with the upcoming reef plan and a lot of pressure to reduce bag limits.
Finally, there is no doubt that the commercial fishers are taking most of the fish and nearly all of it is being exported. They take about 5 times the recreational catch of coral trout and less of some other species but still far more than recreational fishers and they will also need to take a cut. But we beat them on snapper down south so don't scream too loud.
Note that I am not accusing anyone of doing anything illegal but perceptions often carry more weight than fact.

[Luke]

Gday Kerry,
The guy we go out with on 4 day charters is very strict on bag limits and will only allow us to fish a certain spot for a certain amount of time therefore protecting/conserving his areas. We get a few quality fish in one spot and it's "pull lines out wer'e moving". I'd hope most charter operators act in the same way and I'm not sure how you feel bagging reco's that eat they're catch and pay good money doing so offers you any vindification through practices pros use.
Cheers Luke

[Kerry]

Luke,

I know many skippers who do the same thing as they are out to ensure that each trip is a success for all. Who knows what else occurs but I'm aware of different things.

I'm not bagging rec's who eat their catch, lets face we all do that (hopefully :D). But what I am bagging is the practice, attitude and expectations of arriving with a hired ute that looks more like a refrigerated milk truck. A refrigerated milk truck isn't required for a few quality fish, even with a few more thrown in.

But some will continue to dredge the pro thing into any and every arguement, nobody is vindicating anything the pros do so what's it got to do with this discussion.

Vern I think made a good comment that "perceptions often carry more weight than fact"

Cheers, Kerry.

[Luke]

Just judging by earlier posts I guessed you were pro-oreintated but apologies if I'm wrong . I'd like to ask a question aswell though. For eg. obviously undersized sand crabs with the left spike knocked off and sold at the fish markets. Is this legal and more importantly is this an "acceptable practice" . I think that I'd be more worried about that than some eager recos going out once or twice a year with high expectations. My view only.
Luke

[Kerry]

Luke, judging can be dangerous and I'm sure you're aware there are positives and negatives with just about everything that occurs. One could draw parallels all day if required on both sides but what one doesn't need to do is ignore just one side of the equation, which many blindly do.

Got to have a balanced view and if things are clearly illegal then there's obviously grounds to do something about it as opposed to a "practice".

Cheers, Kerry.

[craigie]

Yes Luke, that "Tip" Crab issue would make a good topic all on It's own !!!
Kerry, I've got to give you credit where credits due, You certainly know how to get some lively discussion going. Your obviously emotive about Rec Fisherman exploiting there Recreational status, Hope you filled out the Fisheries Tailor questionnaire, I'm sure your opinion would be most welcome.

Cheers
Craigie

[Luke]

Kerry,
If seeing recos going out and catching they're bag limits and also having high expectations upsets you then imagine how you feel about the other side bringing in undersized fish and crabs for the markets(fact not perception). I'm not drawing any equations because there isn't any. They'res is a livelyhood and ours is enjoyment and to catch the odd feed on the whole. The fact we both catch fish is about the extent of our similarities. A lot of what you say is very vague and if your as straight to the point as you say you are maybe a lot of us will understand exactly where you are coming from. I have heard what pisses you off about recos fair enough but isn't there anything the pros could do better? PS I am all for smaller bag limits.
Cheers Luke

[Kerry]

... Your obviously emotive about Rec Fisherman exploiting there Recreational status, Hope you filled out the Fisheries Tailor questionnaire, I'm sure your opinion would be most welcome.


Craigie, commercial or rec really doesn't matter whose exploiting their status, I'm not on any side. Right now there appears to be an inbalance between understanding and facts in a few areas.

Tailor ???, what's a tailor ;D. That might answer your query :o, never seen one, never caught and know bugga all about them apart from the fact there's no bag limit, but then I have different opinions on bag limits as well :o. Bag limits aren't the savour of many species but maybe tailor might just be one but then I don't have any background on them to make a knowledgeable statement. Numbers simply for the sake of numbers don't justify any persons response as far as ones integrity goes.

Cheers, Kerry.

[Kerry]

Kerry,
# # #If seeing recos going out and catching they're bag limits and also having high expectations upsets you then imagine how you feel about the other side bringing in undersized fish and crabs for the markets(fact not perception). I'm not drawing any equations because there isn't any. They'res is a livelyhood and ours is enjoyment and to catch the odd feed on the whole. The fact we both catch fish is about the extent of our similarities. A lot of what you say is very vague and if your as straight to the point as you say you are maybe a lot of us will understand exactly where you are coming from. I have heard what pisses you off about recos fair enough but isn't there anything the pros could do better? PS I am all for smaller bag limits.
Cheers Luke


Luke, I think I've said this before that if it's outside the conditions then it's illegal so that should be easy to fix, shouldn't it.

If the public don't buy it, the fishmonger won't sell it, the fishmarket's won't accept it then there's no market for it but apart from that it's illegal so why does it keep on happenning, you tell me? obviously you've singled out the preferred personal target.

Really this type of talk gets back to this apparent thought that on one side it's only one individual acting alone as compared to the rec entourage. By that I mean when one talks about buying out licences the general referal is it's only a license, one individual where as a rec angler supports everybody from the tackle shop to the baker.

Both sides have downsteam spin-offs unless of course the pro runs his activities from under a hollow log based on thin air.

Mate, I think lots of people in both areas can do a lot better but tunnel vision isn't a good attribute.

If you take the number of times I've heard how fish farms, acquaculture will solve all out problems, eliminate those dreaded pro's etc etc that clearly shows some simply have this blantant miss-understanding of an overall complex situation.

As for reducing bag limits well again that's probably not an overall remidy. Might be in some cases for some specific species but overall I don't give it a hope in hell of being totally effective.

One of those cases where SIZE really might matter as if anybody thinks for a sec that some rec's won't keep throwing the little ones away as the bigger ones come aboard then there;'s probably fairies at the bottom of their garden.

For many species SIZE should be more the limit than a number, numbers really don't mean much.

Cheers, Kerry.

[Vern_Veitch]

There is a good reason why sand crabs get tipped - Fisheries Officers then must measure them from front to rear and that is a more generous (smaller) measure than if the tips are still there. Not saying they are tipped deliberately.
Do not underestimate the flow on effects of expenditure by recreational fishers. It is an estimated $1 billion pa in Queensland and at about 1 job for each $100 000 spent, that is a lot of jobs. I believe that is a very conservative conversion ratio if there are any economists out there.

[Kerry]

Vern, obviously numbers can be interesting things and made to fit different scenario's (just ask any ex accountants from some recent large companies) and obviously the numbers originating from both sides don't equate, #which is no surprise either.

I suppose the silly question #???, is there a comparative number breakdown on just how/when/where all the numbers were derived and how does one look at these numbers in context.

I'm no economist either but how many recreational fishers equate to one commercial in a true sense.

Cheers, Kerry.

[Vern_Veitch]

Kerry,
it depends on what sort of equation you are looking for. Are you after numbers of people employed or numbers of fish caught or overall benefit to the economy?
A good place to start is to look at the QDPI's QFS Rfish Database report which tels you how many recreational fishers, their approximate catch in individual fish (not tonnage) and then compare that with some of the discussion papers which tell you the commercial declared catch. Doesn't take much figuring out to see tonnage multiplied by what is charged in the fish mongers shops to see what the value of a commercial fishery is.
The recreational is a bit more complex but studies in 3 seperate states by different organisations have all come remarkebly close to the figure of $1000 per angler per annum average spent on going fishing.
In the coral trout fishery the commercial declared catch is about 1500 tonne and the price for live trout is about $50 per kg depending on the time of year. Rec fisho's catch about 300 tonne according to the figures in the RFISH database.
Tailor is about 200 tonne at about a max of $2 per kg for the netters on the Sydney Fish Markets, there are about 150 000 rec anglers who caught them in the last survey. Add three zeros to that figure for a rough expenditure. Even if you halved the estimated rec expenditure, you would have to be crazy to let the netters continue.
I don't amke these figures up - I use what is available from the government and is generaly publicly available in shops or on the web.
Vern

[Kerry]

Vern, I was probably more thinking along the an overall economic line but I woudn't have a clue how or what's been the economic value definition.

I suppose I way I look at it is what I spend on fuel, bait, tackle, ice, service, upgrades, maintainance, rego's, vehicles and whatever other needs/requirements and I suppose that includes our boat builders etc etc (whole range of things I suppose one could include when one really thinks about it)
On some days I might be a fisher and another a straight boatie etc so I'm not all that sure how is it all comes out in the final wash.

On the other hand the local commercial people but a hell of a lot more fuel from the same place I do, outboard operators will change over every 12 months (I might every 15 years?) and similar with all those other things that require service industries (marina's, slips, maintainance, engineers and suppliers of all kinds which beneift and then even the downstream requirements too numerous to mention.

I suppose that type of economic benefit is different to how one looks at economic return as return over the wharf is way way different to return over the counter.

As I've said somewhere else I don't have any background on the tailor issues because they simply don't exist here but with everything I like to hear both sides and the facts to go with them. Somebody mentioned I'd make a good politician but unfortuneately I'm a Yes man :o

I suppose if somebody asked me how much to run the boat, lets say it's about $52/hour, then if someone asks the cost to operate the boat then it's probably something like $240/hour and both queries sound very similar but the way I look at the figures they are very different.

Cheers, Kerry.
# #

[Vern_Veitch]

Kerry,
I guess recreational expenditure is like recreational catch. Each of spends a little bit but at the end of the day it adds up to a lot. A quick desktop study done to assess the potential impact of salmon disease a few years back estimated recreational fishing as spending nearly $3 billion a year and the authors stated that this was deliberately conservative. the figure could be nearly double.
The total landed catch in the commercial sector was less than $2 billion based on hard data.
That does not mean we should shut down the commercial sector - quite the opposite.
What it does mean is that we must maximise the economic benefit to the broader community from a finit resource. Look at the NT - their barra fishery has a total of 23 operators. They have closed a number of complete river systems and are raking in the tourist dollars.
A US Study into wild salmon found that one fish was worth about $14 to the community if caught by commercial and over $50 if caught by recreational. Where would you sell it?
In some areas, commercial and recreational can live together but in many they cannot. We now get a lot of feedback along the lines of "I use to go fishing but when the fishing dropped off, I decided I wasn't enjoying it anymore."
That sort of situation costs jobs.
We need to strike a balance that ensures quality recreational fishing and a sustainable commercial fishery but at present, there is no balance at all. The fishery in Queensland is managed on a first in best dressed basis and recreational fishers can't get their first because of work, weather, family, etc, etc.
NSW is following the NT model for fixing the imbalance.
I'd be keen to hear any other solutions but we cannot rely on goodwill on either side as there is none. You would be amazed at the political backstabbing that I have witnessed behind the scenes. Forget the management, this is a political game and the politicians must make the decisions.
From this point on, no decision is a decision in favour of the commercials.

[Fitzy]

I guess everyone has heard the one about the fisho who thought he's work out how much he spent on a fishing trip?

Anyway the total cost (ice, fuel, gear, oil, bait etc) for one trip was say $50 & he came home with one flathead for dinner. The wife told him "if it cost you $50 to catch one flathead I'm glad you didn't catch 2".