Refueling problems

[Nugget]

I know Charleville had a post recently saying he was refused service while filling up at a petrol station.
Has anyone else experienced problems or been refused service?

This has potential major ramifications so we're following it up on 4BC Talking Fishing Show.

Dave ><>

[imported_admin]

Original post is at http://www.ausfish.com.au/cgi-ausfish/board/YaBB.cgi?board=Boats;action=display;num=1068161111

It seems strange to me that servos have signs up saying that you can not fill plastic containers and yet they have let people with boats with plastic fuel tanks do it for years.


The only thing I could find on the BP website was
http://bp.com.au/conveniences_stores/playing_it_safe/safe.asp
"Turn Off Your Boat or Caravan’s Pilot Light
Many boats or caravans have gas-powered fridges. Whenever possible, turn the pilot light off before arriving at the service station."

[Nugget]

Nigel Jones - National BP Health and Safety Manager will disscuss the issue live at 5.45am Qld time on Sat.
Tune in to Talking Fishing - 1116am to hear all the fatcs.


Dave ><>
PS - Ford and many other manufacturers have had plastic fuel tanks for year as well!

[CHRIS_aka_GWH]

dave,
as someone who has worked in the service station industry for well over a decade I think (my opinion only) individual workers at BP sites have misinterpreted a memo, or boaties have misinterpreted a directive given to them by the console operator (more than likely the case ie if you don't take the tank out of the boat I won't authorise the pump)

I believe it relates to fuel cells (portables). Any portable fuel cells must, & have always been reccomended to, be placed on the ground when filling. This MINIMISES any chance of a static charge sparking when filling (the point at which the most vapour is present).

A boat on a trailer connected by a winch cable or securing chain is at the very least grounded thru the metal ball of the car it is connected to. Any in-built fuel tank is grounded in several ways thru its connection to the boat, its engine & monitoring systems. If however a fuel cell sits on marine carpet or a rubber mat #it becomes insulated from that earth; dry marine carpet has the nasty potential to build static charge on plastics in the right conditions.

I reckon the directive from BP was simply don't authorise a pump if as a console operator you suspect there is a chance a portable is being filled inside a boat. The same has always applied to the boot of a car. Safety first.

I my opinion you are a fool if you fool with fuel.
Try saying that after a couple of rums tomorrow night. #;D

I will be listening intently in the morning dave, finger on the pulse topics like this just keep making the show better.

seeyainthesurf,
chris

[Nugget]

Thanks Chris - I spoke to BP today.
They did make a decision not to fill boats. (I don't know for sure if that was built-in tanks or portable tanks.)
They sent out a memo advising such however, the backlash was so extensive they are currently reviewing the situation.

I can't tell you what the final outcome is as I don't know.
We "should" get the details and answer tomorrow morning - about 5.45am.

It was pointed out to them today that the Federal Govt Study on Rec Fishing shows that $65 million a year is spent of fuels and oils just for fishing and boating and $68m for fuel for car trips to go fishing.
NOT other boating, just fishing.
That equates to $133 million for his industry.

I'm sure they will see an alternative to not filling boats.

I think this will bring another set of restrictions / procedures or manufacturing regulations though.

Dave ><>

[CHRIS_aka_GWH]

or could it be some of the dodgy battery & wiring setups...
maybe they simply want to get rid of the boaties custom altogether -they lost me when they started toying with ethanol - Shell fuel only now.

chris

[jaybee]

I refuse to use BP after the post i put up a few months ago, it was howled down as spam mail, BP control the oil industry, i beleive all boaties should go the extra yard to buy fuel elsewhere, mho, oh not forgetting the the ethonal debacle
cheers
joe.

[Kerry]

BP has the Qld Gov contract and no doubt I betta they are reviewing the decision. There's and awfull lot of Qld Gov boats on trailers that have to get fuel and I doubt they would be bothering with a separate contract for boats.

One contract fits all.

Cheers, Kerry.

[mackmauler]

slight change of subject ;) #some of my fraser fishing team think its ok to put 200litres of unleaded into jerrys in the back of the 4wd's and cover with wet towels and merrily smoke away :o this has been the "norm" for numerous trips to cut down on buying island fuel...is this "normal" for fraser travellers ;D rob

[clutter]

You can understand the implementation of certain safety procedures in certain circumstances but I'm buggered if I have ever heard of a fire at a servo caused by someone filling up the boat.

On a similar line, there is alot of histeria about mobile phones causing sparks and setting off a fire/explosion. If a mobile phone can do this then all vehicles should be pushed into and out of servo's as they have a greater potential to cause a spark due to ignition systems (40000V in a coil), hot exhausts, radios blah blah blah.

Try finding an "actual" explosion caused by a mobile. Never been able to find one in an oil companies safety department.

Just thought of one safety tip though. Don't leave gas cylinders inside vehicles. Recently a Plumber in Newcastle (think it was) suffered serious injuries and his vehicle was totally destroyed after it blew up. He had locked his gas cylinder in the cab of his hilux on the Friday but didn't realise the valve was not totally shut causing it to leak. When he opened it on the Monday up it went. Investigators thought it may have been the interior light that set it off, he may have been smoking also. It was in the papers a few weeks ago.

Cheers, Clutter

[Nugget]

I'm not aware of any fires or explosions started by mobile phones.
I have however heard of a mobile phone transmission affecting the processor and flow sensors that decides how much fuel you have put in.

It was rumoured, particularly in England, that you could get free fuel by holding your phone against the bowser and calling someone.

After 30 years as an electronics tech I'm more inclined to believe the 'free fuel' option - particularly with the old analogue bag phones that had higher wattage transmissions, that the 'fire by phone' option.

Dave ><>

[Luke]

We get a lot of that info at work. The guy that blew up his car set it off when he unlocked(central locking) his car with his keys from a distance and like said earlier his car was full of gas from a leaky bottle. I'll post some pics we got when back at work -but can say it was lucky he wasn't right beside the car. Also got a pic of a portagas refiller lodged through a backseat. I've heard mobiles can cause explosions but more so when dropped and if battery is dislodged or not making proper contact.
Cheers Luke

[nictim]

I would hate to have to lift out my 100ltr tank every time I filled up it would kill me

[Fitzy]

G'Day Nugget,
As I pointed out to you when I first told you about this, the lady at the servo in question specifically mentioned "plastic & fibre glass boats only" were the target.
It has major ramifications to the boating/fishing industry if it is correct &/or becomes accepted practice.

I'd hate to be filling a 250L underfloor job by jerry can!

Will be tuned into 4BC in the morning to hear what Nigel has to say.

Fitzy..

[charleville]

Have just listened Nugget's interview with the BP man.

Dave's story on the show about the static electricity igniting petrol was an eye-opener. A topic in its own right, I reckon.

The BP story re unearthed boats was a little unconvincing though. Whilst a boat like mine sits on plastic rollers and skids, it is earthed through the safety chain and securing hook etc at the bow. The boat is a 2 year old Quinnie with inbuilt tank so there was nothing sub-optimal like loose tanks floating oround on carpeted floors in the boat.

BP must have received a terrible shock at the reaction by consumers and Dave's quoting of the $133M market size must have opened their eyes a bit.

Good interview. Thanks Dave.

[CHRIS_aka_GWH]

...
I have however heard of a mobile phone transmission affecting the processor and flow sensors that decides how much fuel you have put in....


After 30 years as an electronics tech ...


what if any is the known effect of mobiles on boat gadgets - something i've never considered since i hang mine about 20cm from both my sounder & GPS

or should I direct an email to Lowrance

chris

[Nugget]

Fitzy there was never any distinction between boat types - fibreglass, poly or aluminium in the original email from BP to service stations.
If the operator mentioned any specific type of boat, they were not quoting the directive from BP head office.

After talking to Nigel Jones from BP I am much more aware of static build up that causes the explosions than I was - I WILL DEFINATILY touch metal to earth myself before going anywhere near a fuel tank in future - regardless of the type of hull construction.
The most important piece of information I gleaned from that interview was that we - the boatie/vehicle driver - is the source of the static discharge that causes the explosion.

If anglers aren’t permitted to fill boats at service stations, then they will do the job with jerry cans at home - this introduces a whole new plethora of problems / complications.
While it removes the problem / insurance risk from service station premises, it does not reduce the hazard - in fact it introduces a whole new set of problems.

I said in a previous post that I believe this will eventually lead to changes in refuelling / manufacturing regulations and I still see that on the horizon.

The end result SHOULD BE a safer operating and manufacturing procedure - which can only be for the benefit of boaties.

Dave ><>

[Fitzy]

There's an inherent danger in doing just about anything with any fuels. If there is a REAL concern, which appears to be the case, then the fuel industry should be looking to safe-guard their customers safety, as a priority, by possibly fitting an earth strap system at bowsers to stop any static discharge.
Seems to me that it would be a more responsible approach than simply stopping the filling of boats period.


If that is then the case, I cant see any distinction between a boat on a trailer, car, truck of motorbike. There's still the potential for static buildup in any of those & they, like boats, are sitting on rubber tyres with no earth, except for cars that have them fitted.

I know that the issue has raised some eyebrows within the boating industry. There's alot of folks that are awaiting an outcome to this. Any rash decisions could have far reaching effects, so they/we need to get it 100% right.

Cheers,

Fitzy..

[gif]

Good discussion - Thanks Dave and others

The very best way to stop any new rules that we don’t like is to be accident free. # Its simple guys #- no fires = no pressure to tighten up the rules.

I used to work in the Oil Industry ( Not BP). #I did a few safety courses and remember a few things that may be of interest.

This may shed some light on the science of it all # - and maybe save a life #or a boat

A fire needs 3 things - fuel, air, and ignition (spark) #no 2 will do: you need all 3.

So vapour (fuel #plus air) is more dangerous that liquid fuel #! # Sounds crazy? #But think about it ...

What I mean is that you should be more terrified of a fuel spill, or vapours coming out of a tank as you fill it, than a full tank with the lid on tight!

WHY? # Its the same as an engine – mixture too rich or too lean and it wont go. Makes sense? #A full tank is too rich. # Vapours blown away by wind is too lean. # # But vapours collected in a pool is just ripe for an explosion.


We are always going to have the first 2 fuel and air becuase #you can't avoid it when you fill a tank. # #But the risks can be reduced with some simple rules:

ALWAYS fill a removable tank outside the boat. # # #Why? # #As you fill the tank that “empty” space inside the tank is actually fuel vapours. #These #pour out and sink, because they are heavier than air. # These vapours fill up and collect in the hull. #So now your boat is a 4 metre bowl of explosive mixture! #Nice one :o

- But if the fuel tank is on the ground it is earthed the vapours dissipate a lot more easily.

If you have a built in tank - you must have a breather fitted and the fill point outside the hull. #This is #so most of the vapours fall outside the boat. #But even a properly designed vent is a source of fire or explosion. I know that one major boat manufacturer had a recall 18 months ago to improve their breathers.

So #when refuelling we are always going to have a fuel and air - mixture somewhere. #You #can't stop 1 and 2, # so we need to stop 3 #- #the ignition source.


Possible ignition Sources

Smoking # - time to give up!

Electrical wiring - fix it and move it! And don’t carry drums, containers and LPG containers in confined spaces like the boot of cars where there are wires and lights and switches (boot light switch) .

Gas stoves / pilot lights #- guaranteed risks #- turn them off #But you all knew that one.

Static Electricity - this is the sneaky one. #The one that oil companies worry about because they cannot control it or see it. # We have all had a zap from a car. #Boats must build up the same sort of static electricity charge. # They are insulated by tyres and plastic rollers. #Metal safety chains and metal ( not webbing) winches will help earth the boat to the trailer. #BUT the whole trailer / boat combination may still hold a charge. The tyres insulate it from earth.

The only real solution is to neutralize the whole boat / trailer to the pumps “potential” # ( Dave #do you like that technical speak # :) ) # and so no chance of a spark.

When you refuel an aircraft (like a little Cessna) #they have a bare metal tag next to the filler cap and the pump nozzle has a wire and clip. The first thing they do#is to clip the wire to the metal tab #- neutralizing any static. #THEN open the fuel cap and start filling. # The clip is not removed until the cap is back on again.

It would be simple to do something similar with a boat. #Stand on the ground and touch your boat or trailer, and then something metal on the pump before it starts up . # Or just touch the nozzle on some bare metal - the railing or trailer or safety chain if it’s #fibreglass or whatever.


If you're not a little more scared by now #I have one more #nightmare story to share.


We were taught about two aircraft refuellers who incinerated themselves. # Best they can reconstruct is that the got wet with fuel. #That was OK # #until they took off their jumpers #- and caused a static charge. # Not much of them left. #

What they teach now is #- don’t take off fuel soaked clothes #- but go over to a shower and stay there - thoroughly soaking it all off. #Then, under the shower remove the clothes.

So - even if you have earthed the boat # - don’t take off a jumper or jacket while refuelling a car or a boat # It can easily build up a NEW static charge, even if you had done all the earthing I suggested above.


I think I will go back to fishing from jetties ;)


Sorry if this is dull - but I hate to see any of us #injured.

Spread the word #- tell your mates about this issue.

Gary

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

I would have thought the solution to this would be as simple a putting one of those spring loaded flaps just under the fuel cap in the tank on your boat. Your hand holding the petrol nozzel puts you and it at the same potential, touching the nozzel to the tank is when there is a chance of a spark. The flap is there stopping the vapours coming out and being ignited by the spark. After this first spark you, the nozzel and the tank are all at the same potential coz you are all still touching. Just push the flap open with the nozzel and pump in the fuel.
I assume they had a similar concern on cars and this is why you see this system on most (if not all) new petrol cars.

[rick k]

I thought the flap on the fillers of unleaded cars was to stop people putting leaded in.

Our neighbour set fire to his ute at a servo filling a metal mower fuel tin sitting on carpet on a ute liner in his ute.

He said that after he put the fire out with a convenient extinguisher (scorch marks on carpet and some that buffed out on the paint and maybe brown marks elsewhere) he was amused that the console operator asked if he was having a nice day.

I thought that the nozzle and line on the bowser was designed to provide an earth; apparently not always effective. I like the sound of the aircraft system above.

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

I think either, different sizes in the nozzles are supposed to wake you up to the fact that you are putting the wrong fuel or if that's only diesel v's petrol, the different brightly coloured handles for different petrols. Not that an occassional dose of leaded is going to kill an unleaded car/boat anyway.
Don't have those flaps on my recently purchased diesel cruiser, but most petrols I've seen, seem to have them. Since diesel doesn't form explosive fumes like petrol, I think the reason why they put them on petrols is to hold back the fumes until the possible static charge is dispursed. This can be easily answered by the guy Nugget talked to last saturday.
Therefore, (if the theory is correct) I'm thinking the easiest way to solve this problem might be to install these flaps, get a goverment certified sticker on the side of your boat that says you are ok, and get on with fuelling your boat as normal.
You can bet your mortgage that if BP are saying this because it is a real (or insurance related) safety risk, the others won't be too far behind. The more this is discussed, the more likely it will be across the board very soon.
I have a hard time believing that the same problem hasn't already come up with static on cars - I often get a spark when stepping out and grounding myself, then closing the door. Why would this be a boat problem only? Cars run on rubber also.
Fishtime,
Yes your mate would have had a drama because he didn't ground the mower fuel tin by taking it out and placing it on the ground before putting the fuel nozzel near it. He could probably have done the same thing if the lid was off already and he put his grounded finger near it.
Maybe the problem can be solved as easliy as making the servo's have metal, grounded fuel handles instead of plastic. That would certainly save the consumer a lot of hassle.
??? ??? ???
Any other ideas?
Cheers,
Jeff