A question for Nugget

[agnes_jack]

Nugget
On the comprehensive list of coral reef fin fishes, There is one listed as; Mozambique large eyed bream
wattsia mosambica
Have had a couple of people asking what it is. I have checked all my references but cant find it anywhere.
Do you or Gary have any idea Wattsia the hell it is?
Any help would be appreciated.
Regards Tony ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

[Lucky_Phill]

Don't go there Dave !

Phill

[redfoot]

http://fishbase.sinica.edu.tw/summary/Speciessummary.cfm?Genusname=Wattsia&Speciesname=mossambica
dont know if this will help,i think i might be missing something here

[agnes_jack]

Thanks Redfoot!
Just as I thought, not even found around here!
Fisheries must have thrown that one in to complicate things.
Phil- Ya woos! ;D ;D ;D

[searaider]

Agnus_Jack,
If you have a play in the Web site supplied by RED FOOT .
It calls an Iodine Bream a Collared Large-Eye Bream .
Real Name - Gymnocranius Audleyi .

I wonder if they have stuffed up the Scientific Names ,
which no-one understand's anyway , and actualy ment an
Iodine Bream ?

Peter
Searaider 2

[agnes_jack]

Peter
Mate what hope do we have!
The DPI have no idea so how are we supposed to know.
A mate of mine recently rang DPI to ask if iodine bream where included in the coral reef fin fishes and they told him no, you can have as many of those as you like. When I told him that they are included, he rang them again and had to go thru about 3 people before he got a straight answer out of them, and yes they are included. As I said what hope do we have! LOL ;D ??? ;D

[Lucky_Phill]

Iodine Bream included in CRFF ?

I gota have confirmation on this, Tony. Where ?

Iodine Bream has a Family " emporer " and only Red Throat, Long Nose, Red and Spangled Emporer are listed in the CRFF Regs !

awaiting reply


Phill

[agnes_jack]

Phil
There are actually 20 fish listed under Emperor in the coral reef fin fish management plan.
Searaider There is no confusion between the iodine bream and the Mozambiquia thingy its just another species that is listed in the coral reef fin fish management plan, that I could not identify.

Regards Tony

[Lucky_Phill]

Well, having had a good read of the 2003 Management plan CRFF>

I have come to the conclusion that the QFS , DPI and others involved in this are NUTS !

I am amazed at the depth of despair these peole have sunk to, to justify their jobs. 98 Odd specie of CRFF. And some that are not considered to have been caught in Australian Waters. FFS.

We will take the " Iodine Bream " for example.

Iodine Bream, Sand Snapper, Pale_Faced Bream Collared Sea Bream are all it's " common " names. However, it is a member of the " Emporer " Family ( WTF ). and therefore is guided by the reg that says, All Coral Reef Fin Fish have a minimum limit of 25cm and an individual possession limit of 5 unless otherwise specified.

You people are kidding ! 5 Coral Bream. The thing is in plague proportions, and in certain areas is considered a pest. An undesirable. A bait fish.

I need to know answers to WHY such fish come under the CRFF banner ? I was sitting back, quietly accepting the changes, being for the better.

There's an election in the air, and I smell a rat !

[smiley=angryfire.gif] [smiley=bomb.gif] [smiley=furious2.gif] [smiley=rifle.gif] [smiley=thumbsdown.gif] [smiley=wut.gif] [smiley=wut.gif] [smiley=wut.gif]


Phill

[agnes_jack]

I was under the immpression that everybody realized that the new regulation brochure distributed by the DPI is a "summary only"
and that many, many other species are included in the new management plan. All of these species are listed in the full version of the regulation and anyone who did not realize this should make sure that they have a copy of the full version to be sure that they wont run into trouble when they are pulled up by the DPI. Fish such as iodine bream are included in this list and you would be charged for having more than 5 or for any under the minimum size limit of 25cm.

Confusion reigns supreme- still!

Regards Tony ??? ??? ???lol ;D

[Lucky_Phill]

Yes Tony, and the thing is a " GUIDE " and I thought I would be Guided by it. BUT NO, If the DPI want to put out a Guide that only informs me of less than 1/2 of the species under the CRFF, well that's their problem and I'll stick by the Guide and pull it out whenever the Boating Patrol pulls me up.

If the Smart State Govt wants to be smart, DON"T send out 1/2 the info,. Print out a full list. I received many guides from the QFS and have been handing them out to folks not in the know, now I feel like I have mislead them. :-[ >:(

I realise what you saying Tony, and Ignorance is no excuse, but hey, the friggin Guide doesn't mention " Bream " anywhere in the CRFF section. Further, if the Govt want us to abide by the law, print out a Guide that has the info on it. We are not mind readers, not all have puters and the only info available IS the Guide from Tackle Shops everywhere, as the DPI have so eloquaintly put it !

I have contacted people in the QFS today ( obviously their day off ) and expect answers on certain points raised. A full response will be forthcoming soon.

Soon, we'll all have to go to Uni to get a grip on our Passtime ! 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) ::) ::) ::) ::) :o :o :o :o ;)

Phill

[Lucky_Phill]

Wattsia mossambica (Smith, 1957) # #
Family: # #Lethrinidae (Emperors or scavengers) , subfamily: Monotaxinae #picture (Wamos_u0.jpg) by Randall, J.E.

#
Order: # Perciformes #(perch-likes) #
Class: # Actinopterygii (ray-finned fishes) #
FishBase name: #Mozambique large-eye bream
Max. size: # 55.0 cm TL (male/unsexed; Ref. 2295)
Environment: # reef-associated; non-migratory; marine ; depth range 100 - 180 m #
Climate: #deep-water; 35°N - 34°S
Importance: # fisheries: minor commercial
Resilience: # #
Distribution:
Gazetteer Indo-West Pacific: tropical, recorded only from a few scattered localities which include Mozambique, Malay Peninsula, New Guinea, southern China, and Japan.
Yes Folks, this fish is Listed in the CRFF.

[smiley=dizzy.gif] [smiley=hammer.gif] [smiley=jester.gif] [smiley=oops.gif] [smiley=sleeping.gif] [smiley=stare.gif] [smiley=zzz.gif]

Phill

[Lucky_Phill]

So, if you catch one, ( when visiting another country ) remember that you are an Aussie and therefore it will come under YOUR limits.

Phill

[Lucky_Phill]

Having said that. The DPI left out an ' s ' in the spelling of the species. ::)

Phill

[landy1]

Phill Are you just rying to punch up posting numbers

[landy1]

Well are you

[landy1]

Cmon you can tell us ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

Phill Are you just rying to punch up posting numbers

They are called "Brownie" Points (especially on Steve's site)
;D ;D ;D

[landy1]

I stand corrected or is that kowtow
cheers
Mick

[Lucky_Phill]

:P you ferets.

NO, just letting off a little steam and having afterthoughts


Phill

[gif]

Hi Guys

As I freely declare - I have a lot to learn about fishing. # But I can offer some assistance in interpretation of regulations. # (so if anyone wants to take me fishing I will read you a book all about the species #- or maybe #not!)

There is a certain way to read Legislation # - I suppose I am used to it now #- though I still make mistakes. #And reading the posts above makes me remember the pain when I first started reading the Law.


The CRFF #Management Plan specifies certain species (and the text books** that are to be used in identifying these species). #The CRFF Lists in Schedule 2 is a list of Scientific names that I posted a few weeks ago on this site. #See New Bag Limits # http://www.ausfish.com.au/cgi-ausfish/board/YaBB.cgi?board=General;action=display;num=10706892 32;start=10

The Regulation (plan) #covers only these species. # No more no less. # ( See below # INTERPRETATION #and #DEFINITIONS

So when I am asked is Iodine Bream included #I answer a question with a question – what’s its Scientific name? # Once I know for sure I am more confident of giving a correct answer.

In the past weeks I have seen many occasions of the same common name being used for 2 different species. # #So I renew the call #- lets start to use and learn the Latin Names # - even if we cant pronounce them #- and we end up using an abbreviated version #- it has to be better than the mess we have now.


Back to the questions raised above. #

The best I could find is that Iodine Bream #is Gymnocranius bitorquatus # (Cockerell) #- as Sunfish says on its web site #

Or is it #Gymnocranius audleyi #From fishbase? #

Both descriptions discuss the Iodine taste, and as common names are uncontrolled # then either or Both could be called Iodine Bream.


So what does the CRFF management plan (regulations) say?

Well Gymnocranius audleyi # IS caught under the Regulations #(apparently bitorquatus #is not)

audleyi # #is called collared sea bream in regulations and is an Emperor # so the regulations say

- # # #5 of this species as a bag limit
- # # #25cm #minimum size

But what about bitorquatus ? # Apparently it IS #the same fish! # So we have one of many cases where the Scientific name is not pure - there are at least TWO scientific Names for this one fish!

Did you hear the plan to introduce not only fishing licences but a written exam to gain your licence? # More on that on Dave’s Show # #(I should have kept that one to announce on 1st April)


Cheers

Gary


Footnote from above : # # Here is where it says only the species in the list are “ caught” #under these CRFF regulations.


PART 2—INTERPRETATION

6 Scientific names of coral reef fin fish
(1) The scientific names of coral reef fin fish are stated in schedule 2.


#DEFINITIONS

“species of cod or groper” means a species listed under the heading cods
and gropers in schedule 2.
“species of emperor” means a species listed under the heading emperors
in schedule 2.
“species of jobfish”, for schedule 4, means any of the following species—
(a) crimson jobfish (rosy jobfish);
(b) flame snapper;
(c) goldband snapper;
(d) green jobfish;
(e) lavender jobfish;
(f) ruby snapper;
(g) small-toothed jobfish.
“species of parrotfish, surgeonfish or sweetlips”, for schedule 4, means a
species listed under the heading parrotfishes, surgeonfishes or
sweetlips in schedule 2.
“species of tropical snapper or seaperch” means a species listed under
the heading tropical snappers and sea perches in schedule 2.
“species of wrasse”, for schedule 4, means a species listed under the
heading wrasses in schedule 2.



** in this case Randall, John E., Allen, Gerald R. and Steene, Roger C.,
1997, The Complete Divers and Fishermen’s Guide to Fishes of
the Great Barrier Reef and Coral Sea, 2nd revised ed, University
of Hawaii Press, United States of America.

[NQCairns]

Christ what next, throughout this epic I have been gobsmacked many times, The QLD Fisheries minister must be the biggest half wit to ever set foot on gods green earth. No mean feat when a person considers GBRMPAs contributions and the current lib federal Gov we have.
There must be a lot of extra 'jobs for the boys' going around fisheries - they are 'tooling up' to reap the career rewards. Crikey when will the stupidity end?????????????? nq
Again who do i vote for that does the most damage with my poultry 15 or so votes (have family and a bit of influence) to all those in power, I NEED TO KNOW!!!!!!!.

[Nugget]

Sorry I didn't get to this sooner - long weekend / good weather - what's that old saying... "fishing comes first".

Ok - Gary is right.
This species, like many others specified under the CRFF legislation, not only have several common names but also several scientific names depending of what reference book you are using.

A Gymnocranius audleyi is in fact a Gymnocranius bitorquatus - a member of the Lethrinidae family - Class of Actinopterygii (ray-finned fishes), Order of Perciformes (perch-like fish).
Same fish, different name.

So the answer is YES iodine bream are a regulated species under the CRFF legislation, Min size 25cm and bag limit of 5.
(Yes Phil, this is to protect their dwindling stocks!)

When you see a scientific name written in a reference book or web site you will often see a name in brackets after it: for example Wattsia mossambica (Smith, 1957). This is the reference they are using - Wattsia mossambica as identified and named by Smith in 1957.
As Gary has said, iodine bream are Gymnocranius bitorquatus as named by Cockerell, however they are also Gymnocranius audleyi as named by Ogilby (and Fowler in 1933 and Whitley in 1936!)

While there has been a lot of effort to standardise names across the world, often there are several different scientific names, especially in different countries / oceans.
So you can see why it is so important to know the source or reference being used for scientific names.

Wattsia mossambica (Mozambique Bream, Mozambique Perch) ARE caught in Australia - I'm pretty sure the main area they are prolific in, is around Groote Eylandt and Thursday Island.

I'll add iodine bream to the list!

Dave ><>

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

Latin, Laws and Legal Linguistics.
If it tastes like iodine, why keep it? ::)

[agnes_jack]

Jeff
Gymnocranius audleyi ;) doesnt always have the iodine taste only at certain times, and some say they are great eating.(wouldnt bother myself) But it is most often kept as bait, can be a great live bait or a cut bait on the reef. Many people I know keep them for the next trip out as a starter bait, till they get some fresh ones. They are in many areas annoyingly prolific.

Regards, Tony ;D

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

Thanks Tony, I was wondering how it could be a concern since it would only be an issue when you already had 20 real fish in the esky, and therefore, why debate about adding something that tastes crappy? Didn't know it was good bait. Have to go have a look through my book to see what they look like.
Cheers,
Jeff

[searaider]

Guys,
The whole thing is a joke , I'm one for conservation but if you have to know & be able to identify all the fish by their Scientific Names you should be a Marine Biologist not just a poor fisherman trying to abide by the regulations an get a feed .
The Info from Gary is very informative , but I had to read it a couple of times to digest it .
We already know that the Info Brochure supplied by the DPI contain mistakes .
To stop the confusion ,they will have to supply everyone with their own referance copy of Grants Guide to Fishers .
[smiley=hammer.gif] [smiley=wut.gif]

Peter
Searaider 2

[agnes_jack]

Sorry to tell you this Searaider, But Grants guide to Fishes is not recognized by the DPI as a reference source. Most species are based on "The complete divers and fishermans guide to fishes of the great barrier reef and coral sea" by Randal, Allen and Steene.

Regards Tony ??? ??? ???

[redfoot]

i asked the dpi & fisheries to explain difference between any of the"jewfish" family & i was told to look it up in grants(the first time i asked,at bris boat show,the young clown told me there was no such thing as a black jew or jewel fish).im glad my tax and boat rego is paying for this
in the meantime in the 2 weeks i year i can get off work that coincide with good weather/biting fish,if we are lucky enough to catch a feed i cant take it home

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

The thing I also wonder about is the bag limits on migratory pelegics? Does anyone know where there is some info on how far they roam? I have had a bit of a search on the net, but most info seems to be on descriptions or countries they are found, without too much on the migration info.
Just wondering if we in australia are creating a nice little safe breeding ground for the fish, so that they can swim out beyond the 200Nmile mark (or wherever the limit is) into a forrest of long lines and nets. I can understand the reef and coastal fish limits, but have been wondering about the migratory species.
Its like, "Be careful when you eat that Marlin steak, its unlikely you will find any bones, but you may choke on an australian tag."
Cheers
Jeff
PS but then again, they have to get through the aussie pros first ;)

[searaider]

Most species are based on "The complete divers and fishermans guide to fishes of the great barrier reef and coral sea" by Randal, Allen and Steene.

# # # # # # # # # Regards Tony ??? ??? ???
Hi Tony Agnes_Jack ,
What hope have I got I havent even heard of these referance books

Peter
Searaider 2

[Gorilla_in_Manila]

Peter,
Here's one by Gerry Allen. ;)
http://www.dymocks.com.au/ContentDynamic/Full_Details.asp?ISBN=0730983633
Cheers
Jeff

[gif]

Jeff

That book seems to have the same title and one author as the one referreed to in the CRFF Management plan ( The Regulations)

It may be a good read but the one to use to defend yourself in court is the one defined in the regs

As I posted earlier the Regs refer to
in this case Randall, John E., Allen, Gerald R. and Steene, Roger C.,
1997, The Complete Divers and Fishermen’s Guide to Fishes of
the Great Barrier Reef and Coral Sea, 2nd revised ed, University
of Hawaii Press, United States of America


I will try to find out more about this one.

Gary

[agnes_jack]

Gary
I do have a copy of that book, but I think it may be the first edition. It was produced and published by Crawford house press Panorama avenue Bathurst NSW 2795
This may help you to track it down.

regards, Tony

[imported_admin]

Sorry to tell you this Searaider, But Grants guide to Fishes is not recognized by the DPI as a reference source. Most species are based on "The complete divers and fishermans guide to fishes of the great barrier reef and coral sea" by Randal, Allen and Steene.

Regards Tony ??? ??? ???

I have heard them say that several times but if you have a look at the species notes on their website is states under Suggested further reading

Grant, E.M. (2002). Grant’s Guide To Fishes. E.M. Grant Pty Limited, Brisbane.

It is under the heading of Suggested further reading but why are they suggesting you go out and buy/read a $99.00 book if they then will not recognise it ?

Have a look at http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/fishweb/2464.html as just one example


If you are after a copy of GRANT'S GUIDE TO FISHES though you can get it from Ern Grant at http://www.grantsguidetofishes.com/

[gif]

As mentioned before the title below is THE official book for identifying most Coral Reef Fin Fish - should you need to go to Court.


The book is published in the USA # - price is $85 US # - so if you can find a retailer here it would be about $160. # I am still looking. #

Gary

Randall, John E., Allen, Gerald R. and Steene, Roger C., #
1997, The Complete Divers and Fishermen’s Guide to Fishes of #
the Great Barrier Reef and Coral Sea, 2nd revised ed,

[gif]

As I said above - only the official book in the Regulations will do if it ever gets to Court.


I found out there is 2 editions of the same book. Probably identical but with two publishers - in Australia and in the USA.

The Australian Publisher has moved twice - but having tracked them down it seems that the book is out of print - sold out.

But that’s the Australian edition – it is not the edition in the regulations ( Lawyers are fussy like that) .

So on to getting the USA edition - THE official one. Well they have no agents in Australia and refused to sell me a copy ( $85 US Plus shipping and taxes) They refused because they do not have rights to sell in Australia.

So it seems that no one in Australia can get a copy of the Book required to interpret the species in the CRFF regulations.

BTW - the DPI library does not have a copy of the official book either. They do hold 2 copies of the Australian Equivalent. So if it came to Court it seems no one could show the Judge a single copy of the book referred to in the legislation.

I’m tired now. I think I’ll go have a nap.

Gary

[agnes_jack]

Gday Gary
Well, suprise suprise!
So how the hell do they teach there field officers how to ID the species! [smiley=stupid.gif] [smiley=wut.gif] [smiley=wut.gif] [smiley=wut.gif] [smiley=wut.gif]

[Brissyguy]

Red Tape and officialdom [smiley=rifle.gif]

Is this a win/win situation ???

[agnes_jack]

Thats an interesting thought Richo
We cant prove them wrong, and they cant prove themselves right. ::) ??? ???

[NQCairns]

Hi guys the library may not have copys, but the library is only a library, the individual departments/officials that hold any interest in the subject would have them in their desk- guaranteed.nq

[gif]

Good Point.

I wondered how that edition got into the Regulations

Gary