GBRMPA maps..ya got ta' laugh

[kc]

For all us conspiracy theorists out these who think GBRMPA is just out to confuse the shit out of us so we give up and go play golf, or sit down in front of the tele with the kids, here is a classic.
Im going to try to post the relavent documents and JPG's at the end of this but if I stuff up get a lóok at the detailed map of the Whitsunday's and have a look at the green zone out front of Erlando bay North of Airlie.

The following quote is direct from the disclaimer on the map.

"Please note: Although these products may display zoning to a high degree of mapping accuracy, they have no legal effect and are not a substitute for the zone boundary descriptions provided in Schedule 1 to the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Zoning Plan 2003."

So, just to check that the map is right you go to the zoning plan (I hope the jpg's are attached) which basically says you start at the point north where the zone touches the coast, work through a series of points to the southerly most point of the zone

AND THEN "FOLLOW THE MAINLAND AT MEAN LOW WATER MARK BACK TO THE COMMENCEMENT POINT.

Now, this is the LAW, but the map shows the bays as blue zones...remember, the map is a guide and you can't trust the maps, you can only really trust the zoning plan.

With this confusion in hand I rang the maping division of GBRMPA........please explain?? & this is no BS. This particular bay is state marine park, why, because this, and any other bay, across whoose mouths a cannon can be fired from one side to the other is state marine park and if you can't fire a cannon across it is federal marine park. So in this particular case....."FOLLOW THE MAINLAND ALONG AT MEAN LOW WATER MARK" , actually means cut straight across the front of the bays in 120 foot of water. Now if a bay on an Island can have a cannon fired across its mouth, that does not matter, it is still federal marine park, unless of course the island is near the mainland!! It would appear regardless of the colour zoning on the maps the good old cannon test will determine if the bay is validly zoned.

But wait, there's more. When the state passes its complimentary zoning legislation, the current maps will be invalid. You could maybe ignore the written law and trust the zoning map (if you had a good cannon) and be blissfully fishing in a bay only to be pinged because your map is the OLD map. You will need the NEW map or better still 2 MAPS. One state and one federal.

This is dead set & all a sick joke. My suggestion...get a bigger F^%^&in' cannon and point it at bloody Canberra.


Now to try the jpg's. Fingers crossed coz your gunna love 'em

[kc]

One worked,
I'll try the map again

KC

[TonyM]

Now I'm totally confused... ???

Exactly what size cannon would you reccomend for a 4.55 tinnie? Forgive me for asking this stupid question - it's just that I don't have one and obviously they are a must-have navigation device... :o

oops - I probably should post this in boating chat ;)

[Local_Guy]

how big is the cannon?

[kc]

Isn't this a hoot!! This is dead set no BS!! So "following the mainland coast at mean low water mark", does not ACTUALLY mean following the mainland coast at mean low water mark. It Means "following the mainland coast at mean low water mark, until you reach a bay, across whose points a cannon can be fired and THEN, following the coast at mean low water mark means going straight across the bay.

FACT 1. I'm not blonde!!
Fact 2. Where does it say this on the map??!!
Fact 3. Where does it say this in the legislation??.
fACT 4. It is altogether just too much for me, I'm going off to have a Bex & a good lie down.

Regards

KC

[kc]

Oh!! & I have a question. If you fire a cannon, for the purposes of assessing the distance across and bay to see if you can fish or not, and the cannonball falls short and kills a fish. Is this considered fishing or navigation??

Also if anyone finds anymore classic bloopers on their area maps can you please let me know.

It will be important.

Regards

KC

[TonyM]

Yet another question...

Given the advancement in militiary technology I imagine the range of a modern cannon is obviously far superior to an older "shot" style cannon - does this mean the bigger the cannon you have the more bays you can fish in? (makes sense I guess - If I were a fisheries inspector I wouldn't want to bother someone with a really big cannon...) :P

[MTpockets]

ummmm yer KC..... that clears up a hell of a lot of confusion dun it?? Does that green section overlap that blue section at all, or is it parallel? Do white X's float like in the naked gun movies? Where do farts go?
You have a spare bex onya mate?
cheers
Les

[kc]

this went out to several dozen media out lets with the 2 jpg's at ttthe start of this post attached.

Be interesting to see the media response

Press Release

July 3, 2004

A Typical example of confusion created by GBRMPA Maps

While GBRMPA has been at pains to tell the press and the general public that uses the marine park that the available maps are easy to follow, the attached example is a classic case of the type of confusion which is occurring amongst the recreational fishing community and why, The Fishing Party (Qld), maintains that people are just giving up and leaving the sport and why support industries such as tackle and boating industries are suffering.

The following notation is the disclaimer, which appears on the zoning maps,

“This map is intended as a guide for zoning only and has no legal effect and is not a substitute for the zoning boundary descriptions provided in Schedule 1 of the Zoning plan. Users should always refer to the zoning plan when intending to use the park”.

Seems pretty clear. The map is just a guide and the zoning plan is the law.

Attached to this email are 2 documents. 1 is an extract from this “zoning plan”, the law, as it relates to a particular green zone in the Whitsunday’s. Bear in mind we are all supposed to refer to this when intending to use the park. Simple and a well written easy to understand document for any layman.

We have run a computerized mapping program over the zone which depicts the latitude and longitude reference point depicted in point 1 of the attached zoning plan extract, at the Northern most point of the green zone where it touches the coast. It then follows a series of points to the Southern tip of the green zone where it touches the coast in point 5 of the legal description. Point 6 has the green zone “follow the mainland coast at mean low water mark back to the point of commencement”. Now one would think this means follow the mainland coast at mean low water mark back to the point of commencement and as such the 2 bays are legally green zones and an error was made on the map. The map is only a guide; the zoning plan is the law after all. A call to GBRMPA for some clarification however advised that no. Those 2 small bays are in fact blue because in this case, with reference to an old navy law, if you can/could fire a cannon across the entrance to a bay, shore to shore, then that bay became state inland waters and was not covered by the zoning. So in this case follow the mainland coast at mean low water mark actually means cut straight across the bay in 40 meters of water. We could find no reference to the “cannon test” in any of the marine park documents.
It may well come to pass that, with this test in mind, depending on the size of one’s cannon, that many of the bays on various maps may be inaccurately depicted and zoned.

It appears to us that GBRMPA has set out to create maximum confusion and with the maps clearly being a guide and the zoning plan, which we are supposed to read and understand, being the document we are actually supposed to refer to before entering the park, how long before someone cops a massive fine by blundering into a green zone. Given GRBMPA instructs all users to refer to the zoning plan, not the maps before it uses the park one would expect each map to come with a copy of the zoning plan. This is not the case. Only a small number (relative to map numbers) have been printed and distributed. It is very difficult to find a copy of the zoning plan, which we are all, supposed to refer to before using the park.

The truth is many people, particularly those who are only occasional fishers, will look at the maps; the fines and the technical jargon and just not bother.

The Fishing Party (Qld) is also amazed that GBRMPA, as quoted in the Courier Mail of 2nd July, has dismissed out of hand the policies of our organization because to date they have not actually even asked to see them.

Ends

Media enquiries
0414 785 462


Cheers all.

KC

[Kerry]

Also with regards the maps, coordinates etc has anybody seen or heard anything from any of the third party mapping/chart providors.

AND especially with regards who is covering the cost of including the new zoning info into third party chart products.

Have not seen anything in this regards but maybe somebody has? Really considering that these zonings have been "imposed" on the general boating user then really in no way should the user be expected to be charged for the privilege from any third party mapping providor.

In no way shape or form should any third party mapping/chart providors be able to make any (ongoing) profit (what so ever) from these zonings in increased charges for having to include these zonings in to any of their products.

So if there are any costs incurred by the mapping companies, and obviously there will be then these really should be covered by a up front once off implementation fee and charged to GBRMPA.


Cheers, Kerry.

[megafish71]

Very good point Kerry, But I'd be wanting GBRMPA to provide the correct info before printing anything.
Ron

[Kerry]

Ron, the info (coordinate schedule etc) is all covered in the zoning plan legislation, so all the info is available and the coordinate schedule effectively is the absolute reference as far as legal traceability is concerned.

Cheers, Kerry.

[kc]

Except any company planning a releasing an updated GPS map card will wait to see what the State does re the complimentary zoning legislation. Or maybe they will produce a card now (& sting us a couple of hundred) then another update later, for another couple of hundred and who knows what in the future. Fishing is looking like a more and more expensive hobby for less and less enjoyment. Hmmmm! Maybe that's what they actually want!

KC

[BladeRunner]

All zoned out [smiley=policeman.gif]
This is an invetation to all the fish between Caloundra & Tincan bay especially Double Island Point Big REDS & SNAPPER . Make you way North to the new zones you will be left alone in a area of warm tranqual waters heaps of coral and great place to retire. To many of you are being caught and displayed on the Ausfish Web Site.

My space. As you run the gauntlet passed where I am allowed to fish I won't take to many of your brother & sisters. But Remember when you arrive at your designation Just check your boundrys with GRUMPY [smiley=dunce.gif] Gos if he won't tell you who can. (Don't buy a map.) CQ TO CAIRNS when your area becomes a tourist attraction for a great place to fish. Becomes every childs dream is to catch a fish. lets not make it to hard for the future .Even I am having to bend a little.

Your not the only one's in the same boat It effects a lot of people but who ever is at the wheel needs to know who voted for them. Who is in trouble when a mistake is made?. I wish I had a cannon or sexton or whatever.
Thanks for reading


BladeRunner [smiley=bandana.gif]

[Mad_Barry]

CMap are supposedly updating their charts by september (according to the local nav shop). Yes, will be at regular update prices, about $80 to $100.

Kerry, I also noticed Cmap as one of the "advertisers" in the GRUMPA handout booklet "guide to fishing the barrier reef" (or something like that), I recieved #in the mail last week. So I'd say there is a little hand holding going on.

[Kerry]

With regards these maps and especially the coordinates it would be interesting to know fisheries policy with respect defining if one is actually inside or outside a boundary in critical circumstances. In other words what is/might their leeway be ??

The coordinates are fixed as absolute but most positioning devices that users will rely on are not absolute and on some days/times can be a little unreliable, sometimes just a little, other times maybe a lot.

Cheers, Kerry.

[kc]

The posts on this topic are (we believe) typical of the types of discussions GBRMPA & their puppet masters are hoping you/we would be having.

Here is The Fishing Party (Qld) slant.

We believe that the underlying agenda of the federal government, via the GBRMPA and the variuos state EPA's has a long term plan to "depopularise" recreational fishing, particularly in national park areas. This will be a gradual and generational change and our children and granchildren will just not fish. The confusion and scare campaign tactics employed by GBRMPA and its variuos enforcement agencies with issues like zero tollerance, ignorance is no excuse, very complex maps and zoning plans and fines for fishing much larger than the fines for bank robbery is sympomatic of this agenda.

They care not for the people whose livlihood depands on "us", they care not for the fat kids who sit in front of the tele instead of being out fishing with their dads and they really don't give a shit about "us" because there really are not many votes in NQ.

What they have failed to grasp is that depopularising rec fishing, particularly in NQ is like banning surf boards at Bondi or bulldozing the MCG. It is our icon. It is the one recreational institution which binds us. It is cross gender, cross generational and cross demorgrahic. We fish. The tinny, a rod and a crab pot defines a North Queenslander. The Government seeks to remove our identity. We say F^%$K 'em.

I know this all sounds a bit deep and consiracy theorist but all the facts, all the evidence, points to no other conclusion.

We stand, we fight and we vote or recreational fishing as we know and love it is over!! Maybe not in our lifetime but most certainly in our kids lifetime.

The Fishing Party (Qld) was formed so a few of us could get a chance to "vent our spleen" get ignored (as usual) and at least go and have a "good lie down" at least knowing we had, had a go. It is bigger than that now. We are too big, have too many members, supporters and sponsors to let it go and owe it to everyone who is backing us to at least take this to the election and test the waters.

I Fish & I Vote is finally actually going to mean something....

KC

Here-in endeth the "venting of the spleen"

Sorry about that guys. Sometimes I get a bit carried away but the more I read, the more I dig & the more fishos I talk to the more I belive we are getting done over for purely political puposes & we either stand shoulder to shoulder or go down in a screaming heap.

[BladeRunner]

Great speel Kc
Didn't think I could read it all but I did .
Do we need Peter Garrett ?? [smiley=guitarist.gif]
Hold it I won't start somthing I can't finish .
Send me some more info please.
I Fish & I Vote is finally actually going to mean something.... I agree
BladeRunner [smiley=bandana.gif]

[kc]

Hi Mate,

I get a bit excite sometimes...but hey!! What's life without a bit of excitement. I know I don't get too much in the cot because I seem to spend every bloody night on the computer answering emails till 2 am. I just got home from work (bit after 10) and I've got 30 emails to answer tonight!!

Don't know Peter Garret but they recon Angry Anderson might be looking for a job!

Send me an email to kc@whitsunday.net.au & I will send you whatever you need (then some).

Regards

KC

[Fisheasy]

Great Barrier Reef today - the closure of Fraser Island, Moreton Island to anglers tomorrow? ? ? ? #Hell, anything's possible nowadays!
Good luck K.C.!

[jockey]

KC I'm not sure what you were getting at with the fines, but I think many fishermen would like to see tougher penalties for those who deliberately do the wrong thing

[BladeRunner]

Don't know Peter Garrett band called MIDNIGHT OIL
What you are burning by the sound of things, he has joined the Beattie party .
Don't mind Angry Anderson , dose he fish ?
Thanks I will be in touch
BladeRunner [smiley=bandana.gif]

[kc]

There is no differenciation between deliberate and accidental. It is now, in the eyes of the law, far more seriuos to be fishing in the wrong place than it is to drive drunk, bash a little old lady or rob a bank!! This is all part of the process to depopularise the sport of recreational fishing. If you make it hard enough, confusing enough and can scare people into believing it may well cost them their house if they happen to go fishing in the wrong spot....then they will just decide it is not worth the risk and give up. The occassional fishers and the visiting fishers will be the most effected, along with those who don't have a GSP or access to computers.

Why would GBRMPA print over 1/2 a million maps and then make it very clear on the front of each map, that these are guides only and EVERY INTENDING USER OF THE PARK SHOULD CONSULT THE ZONING PLAN BEFORE ENTERING THE PARK and then only print 6000 copies? If we are all suppossed to read this complicated and pompous monstrocity, should not every map have come with a zoning plan attached".

This is a seriuosly complicated document. It requires a very high level of navigational skills to interpret.

By all means let the punishment fit the crime but this is all about depopulariisng the sport. The GBR was first, Frazer and the bay are next. Our kids and grandkids just won't bother...the fishies will be nice and safe and the rabid end of the green movement will have achieved their stated objective.

If I'm parnoid then so are an awful lot of other people who can see the writting on the wall.

At the other end of the scale their are some who really can't see the forest for the trees.

Regards

KC

[jockey]

KC various state fisheries depaqrtments use these boards to publicise successful convictions. Almost invariably people say that the punishment wasn't harsh enough. Also, surely you agree that someone who goes out of their way to fish illegally for profit should cop more than someone who makes a mistake. This will probably come out in the quantity of fish involved. I know the potential fines seem large, but I can't remember anyone ever saying that some was actually fined too much. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[kc]

The new laws and new fines are 9 days old! I have not personally heard of any breach notices being handed out yet so we won't know what the courts will do. I have heard that a lot of people are just giving up. I have a letter from a major boat builder in NQ who has not sold a recreational fishing boat in 3 months and has not built and sold a professional trout dory since November last year. Personally I don't believe the intent is to fine people $220,000 for fishing in the wrong spot, the intent is to scare them right out of the sport by making it too hard, too confusing and just not worth the risk...period.

If you don't believe that get a copy of the zoning plan, have a good read & then work out where you can and can't fish.

I'm not sure how to attach to this post so I will PM you a page to see if you can figure it. I have a coxwains ticket (which includes qualifications in coastal navigation) & last Tuesday night I showed it to a commercial pilot.

If we, with some level of experience, found the document totally daunting and almost unreadable what chance people without formal training? We are ALL suppossed to consult and understand the zoning plan before using the park. It says so loud & clear on the front of the maps.

I am intending myself to take the kids out Monday morning for a bit of a fish & I will not be going out the front. I will hit the river instead. Fishing in the GBR is becoming too risky and not worth the trouble in case you make a mistake. This is what RAP and the propogander about the fines is all about.

I will PM you a page out of the zoning plan Charles & see if you can honestly understand it or maybe, just maybe, it is all a bit daunting!

Regards

KC

[jockey]

If I wanted to go fishing there I would just check the maps. Sure there are some problems that need ironing out. I actually don't have a boat myself and I don't think there are many shore fishing spots locked up. Most occasional fishermen fish from the shore down here, I'm not sure what it's like up there. If I had a boat and was willing to take it way offshore I don't think following the maps would add too much extra hassle (providing you use a GPS)

[snapperhead]

You have no idea do you, grab a map and check it out yourself jock strap it effects everyone up here you f*!kn turkey >:(

[Kerry]

I don't think there are many shore fishing spots locked up

Really this is the sort of comment that shows some have absolutely no real idea about these "Reef" zonings as some of them simply don't fit the "reef" image that is portrayed in the warm and fuzzy commercials.

Some coastal areas have coped a complete wipe out and in no ways fit the "image" of the GBR.

providing you use a GPS so here's a question if "you use" a GPS.

Will "using" a GPS with confidence make the effective zoning areas larger of smaller?

Cheers, Kerry.

[jockey]

I've checked the maps. There's heaps of shore fishing spots. Try doing a rough measure of the % of shore fishing spots locked up. I bet it will be way less than 30%. Obviously if you just look within a coastal green zone you will get 100% coverage.

Kerry I don't know what the accuracy of a GPS is, but I think they are good to within a meter or so (less than the length of a boat). So that won't make any difference to the effective size of the green zones.

[kc]

Like the old saying goes Jockey, Time to put up or shut up!!

You now have a copy of a page from the zoning plan, which I emailed you.

If you have not actually seen a map I will quote word for word the notation on the front cover of all the maps.

"IMPORTANT NOTE FOR MAP USERS"

This map is intended as a guide to zoning only and has no legal effect and is not a substitute for thre zone boundary descritions provided in schedule 1 of the Zoning Plan.
Users should always refer to the Zoning PLan when intending to use the Marine Park. The Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority should be contacted for clarification on any matter."

Now take this as read, have a look at the zoning plan page I sent you and tell me your not confused!!

Regards

KC

And another little aside. Did you know that in theory the rezoning allows spearfishing in Yellow zones but in practise in most major areas the yellow zone spearing rule is now over-ridden by a special plan of management which bans spearfishing in all zones. Jockey...this is one for you!! Your a spearo!! What ya'reckon!!

[BladeRunner]

KC
Why should you be afraid to go out front when you have a coxwains ticket ?
I to have coastal navigation knowledge.( Nothing flash) Try satellite navigation now thats tough.For the norm nearly every one has a GPS don't get to technical, send me the maps you are refering to, copy me in . If the zones are in then thats the zoned area. Some Fishing Party. I am sure all fishos missed your point KC.

Ausfish Members.... If you have a GRIPE about the zones in your area then lets start a special post. Lets call it GBRMP,Take Over. Who's first on the board.
BladeRunner [smiley=bandana.gif]

[Kerry]

.... I don't know what the accuracy of a GPS is, but I think they are good to within a meter or so (less than the length of a boat). So that won't make any difference to the effective size of the green zones.

"within a metre or so" that's an interesting misconception. So would that be a metre or so all the time, some of the time or what? and if any of the time then which part of the time.

"less than the length of a boat" ;) suppose depends on how ya boat is, doesn't it ;D

If the custodians of GPS don't even guarantee an accuracy figure "on earth" (which they don't by the way) then really how can one guarantee ones position with respect to any zoning boundary.

With this, one has to understand what "guarantee" means in GPS terms and how a average user using the Standard Positioning Service (SPS) actually knows and can absolutely rely on their position.

Cheers, Kerry.

[jockey]

I didn't get that email KC, or a PM. Perhaps you should post it up here so everyone can see. Or just link to the maps at the GBRMPA website.

If you use any of those fish measuring stickers they also say that they are a guide only and have no legal effect. They may shrink or expand by half a mm with temperature depending on what you stick them on, plus you can probably stretch the sticker or compress it (ie fold it a bit and get bubbles under it) when you stick it on. That doesn't stop people using them and no-one frets that they might get booked for having a fish a millimeter undersize.

Are the green zone depictions for the bays/estuaries on the maps wrong because of the cannon rule? Or is the map not fine enough to show the detail? Perhaps they just need more detailed maps. In any case I would just go by the maps. Fisheries say they have no legal effect, but they do. It's like most disclaimers. They are just to discourage people from suing in the first place, but in general they are not a limitation of liability. If you are allowed to fish somewhere going by the map but not by the official rules and you got booked for it you would take it to court and get off. Most likely they wouldn't bother prosecuting in the first place. They'd fix the maps instead. A little common sense goes a long way. Or if you want to stir them up you could find a place where the map says you can't fish but the rules say you can and fish there. You probably know more about the rules than fisheries do.

I didn't know that stuff about the spearing bans. Could you please post some links to more info on this. It would be a shame if it were true. A lot of people see spearfishing as even more brutal than line fishing, even though it has a lot of practical advantages for fishing sustainably.

[jockey]

I think they are accurate to within a meter or so all the time. But I don't know. Do you? Obviously the GPS companies won't give you a guarantee in case you try to steer your multi million dollar yacht with it. Remember that fisheries will probably be using the same GPS as you so if there is any confusion it will be to your advantage. You don't have to understand what 'guarantee' means, you just have to use common sense.

[Kerry]

I think they are accurate to within a meter or so all the time. But I don't know. Do you?
Within a metre? No certainly not, not using SPS, which is basically what most boaties/recreational users have to use. Most recreational receivers aren't even capable of displaying to a "within metre" precision, let alone be accurate to such.


Obviously the GPS companies won't give you a guarantee in case you try to steer your multi million dollar yacht with it.
The GPS companies don't have anything they can guarantee with as they don't own it, don't operate it or take any responsibility for it. They all have to work from the same specifications. GPS has no legality as a sole means of navigation and there is some very good reasons for this being the case.

Remember that fisheries will probably be using the same GPS as you so if there is any confusion it will be to your advantage.
Advantage could it? could just as easy be a disadvantage couldn't it and No fisheries may not be using the "same GPS capabilities".

You don't have to understand what 'guarantee' means, you just have to use common sense.
Meaning of "Guarantee"? Oh yes you do, otherwise you should stay home and play with your TV remote or some other appliance where you don't have to know what your doing or why your doing it or what it means.

Cheers, Kerry.

[jockey]

So what precision do they display?

What do you mean by 'GPS has no legality...'? Where did you hear that?

Any confusion in the law or the technology used to enforce it works in the favor of the defendant. That's why we can do 110 in a 100 zone.

Kerry please define guarantee for me in terms of this discussion. Maybe then I will know what you are getting at.

[Kerry]

So what precision do they display?
Most have a resultant display precision to a little less than 3 metres but do not confuse "precision" with "accuracy".

What do you mean by 'GPS has no legality...'? Where did you hear that?
There are standards and guidelines for GPS use in Australia but these as yet DO NOT REPRESENT legal traceability under the Australian Measurement Measurement Act (1960) and GPS should not be used as a sole method of measurement for measurement within Australia. Some State and/or Territory departments have variations and supplementary clauses to this requirement in the context of "traceability" and connection to National and State control. #

There are ways and means of providing "uniform and reliable validating of user systems" but the guidelines that cover this DO NOT PROVIDE legal traceability.

Similar in a navigation situation GPS is NOT APPROVED as a sole means of navigation under marine navigation orders.


Any confusion in the law or the technology used to enforce it works in the favor of the defendant. That's why we can do 110 in a 100 zone.
Ignorance is no excuse and very shortly you will only be able to 100 in a 100 zone as well, no excuse and this has already been basically tried as far as fishing in marine parks in Australia is concerned.

.... please define guarantee for me in terms of this discussion.
If one wants to really define things then in fact there is NO Guarantee with respect GPS.

There are "levels of performance the U.S Government makes available to civil users through the Standard Positioning Service (SPS)" but in reality this is not a guarantee.

In simple terms civil users are provided with a signal/service based on Signal-In-Space (SIS) specifications at a level which effectively can be controlled by the system's hardware and control structure. SIS specifications are values and definitions at the "satellite level" as being a space based systems the operators have absolutely no control over many of the things that can/will/do affect the signal between the satellites and the user, such as atmospherics both ionsphere and troposphere, delay effects, solar activity, obstructions, local terrain, interference, end user equipment, platform dynamics, user location and even the user themselves. # #

Even these SIS specifications have a statistical qualification so outside these specifications there is effectively no upper limit to the possible errors that do/will and have occured.

The thing with SPS GPS is any navigation/positions have no integrity in real time and so can not be guaranteed to be reliable or within specification 100% of the time, reliable 100% of the time being the key factor. #

Cheers, Kerry.

[jockey]

Do you know what the accuracy of GPS is?

What makes you think you will only be allowed to do 100 in a 100 zone soon?

What happened when 'it' was tried with regard to fishing?

Have there been any court rulings to back up what you are saying about the legal standing of GPS?

Where did you get that quote from?

No technology is 100% reliable. That doesn't stop law enforcement people using it. Fingerprints are a good example.

Perhaps you should just give us a link to the website(s) you are getting this from so we can make our own judgement.

[kc]

The reason I did not go out the front is the spots I would have liked to have fished are now zoned out. I don't have a GPS in the tinny and it is just not worth the risk. Imagine the PR delight GBRMPA would have at the head of the fishing party being caught poaching....no thanks!!

This thread, while wandering off the track a bit is actually demonstrating the very point made at the beginning....it is just too hard!! You are arguing back and forth about map and GPS accuracy, the way to fight IF/WHEN you end up in court etc etc. The average 3 times a year Mum, Dad & the kids just won't go!! Don't you get it. It is about depopularising the sport and pity help the poor buggers relying on it for a living.

Jockey I don't know why you didn't get the PM. Did you get the research papers? If not I will send them again. I have tried to post them here but it won't post. I'm am a computer clutz and don't have the technical smarts. Neither can I post links...like the one you want Jockey about spearing. Just go to the GBRMPA web site and have a look. Spearing in yellow zones was suppossed to be one of the trade-offs for RAP. Then they shafted us on that too. All around Cairns and Whitsunday's yellow zone spearing is banned. Don't start on the ethics etc of spearing...it is just a statement of fact!

The Pm I sent you is just a random page from the zoning plan and GPS or not very few people will read and understand. The zoning plan is a highly technical document. I will try to post the page again after this post but am not having much luck.

Regards

KC

[kc]

Hi Bladerunner. You said "If the zones are in thats the zoned area"..some fishing party!! Hmm. Did you read the first post in this string? Tell me...what is the status of the bays in front of Erlando (as posted)...read the plan, then look at the map....you tell me & I might add, you tell me without knowledge of the cannon shot rule, which you did not know (I asssume) before the information was posted. Put yourself in the position of going fishing, looking at the map, reading the zoning plan..................sounds pretty straight forward! Or is it?? A'n awful lot of boats don't have GSP. What say your walking along the beach south of Midge point cast neting some prawns or fishing.....are you going to have a GPS in your pocket?? You have Genesta Bay, which, based on the same laws applying to Erlando Bay are or may be, state waters and the map says green?? Hill Inlet on Whitsunday Island, zoned yellow, way up above mean low water mark?? No GPS marks for the corner of the green zone already identified at the start of this thread....what if you on the headland fishing or on the rocks getting a few oysters??

Go to MP20-1125 and identify for me the point where the green zone around the back of Seaforth actually become a yellow zone? The intersection points of the green & yellow on Shaw? The intersection point on Whithaven beach..MP 20-1116? Go to CP 20-1182 The point where the yellow zone of bluff point becomes blue? I could fill an entire post with these examples.

Bladerunner you are trying to make this sound really simple and The Fishing Party sound really dumb!! Let me word you up!! Its not & we are not!!

[jockey]

Actually KC it could work in your favour if you got busted because you didn't have the technology to obey the rules. I had always assumed that anyone who went a fair way offshore (so they couldn't navigate by landmarks) would use a GPS. How do you find your fishing spots without a GPS?

I didn't get the research papers or the PM.

Instead of trying to post a link, just go to the website, highlight the URL in the navigation bar (the bit at the top that says http://www.ausfish.com.au/cgi-ausfish/board/YaBB.cgi?board=General;action=display;num=10887581 36;start=30#30)
then copy and paste it onto here. Ausfish automatically turns it into a working link.

The average fisherman doesn't have a boat so the whole GPS issue doesn't affect them. A lot of the guys with boats may not go so far offshore anyway. If you do take a boat offshore then there are so many things you have to worry about that affect your safety that a GPS wouldn't add much to to it, and would probably improve your success rate anyway.

Marking where the green zone boundaries reach a beach would be pretty easy and I think that is what we should be focussing our criticism on.

[Kerry]

Do you know what the accuracy of GPS is?
Global average 13 metres or less 95% of the time (SIS only) and worst site positioning accuracy 36 metres or less 95% of the time (SIS only) and all based over any 24 hour period within the service volume.

Then there’s the other 5% of the time, which can be left to your imagination :-X. Real world can be something like THAT Other 5 percent (http://cqnet.com.au/~user/aitken\gps_x\GPS%20The%20other%205%20percent.htm)

What makes you think you will only be allowed to do 100 in a 100 zone soon?
What makes you think that this isn’t the case now, which by the way it is, just that up to now it hasn’t been enforced and no reason why it won't and actually is already on the table.

What happened when 'it' was tried with regard to fishing?
Fisheries got their way, one reason they get around in pairs but like any good prudent navigator don't rely on a sole means of navigation either.

Have there been any court rulings to back up what you are saying about the legal standing of GPS?
Put simply there is no “legal standing” with respect GPS with only one case where after much debate it was actually allowed to be put forward as evidence. As a legal standing there wasn't any.

Where did you get that quote from?
Probably off the top of my head at the time but officially it comes from the Global Positioning System Standard Positioning Service Performance Standard (http://www.igeb.gov/SPS-2001-final.pdf)

No technology is 100% reliable. That doesn't stop law enforcement people using it. Fingerprints are a good example.
That’s the point isn’t it? and GPS doesn’t even come close, not by a long shot to some of the more “accepted” investigative evidence.

Perhaps you should just give us a link to the website(s) you are getting this from so we can make our own judgement.
“Judgment” There’s no “judgment” to be made as here one only has to deal with facts and not some of your over hyped “opinions”.

Most of the GPS Standards and Practices Such as SP1 (http://www.icsm.gov.au/icsm/publications/sp1/SP1v1-5.pdf) are still not officially an Australian Standard so “Legal Traceability” simply doesn’t exist, yet, it can’t until there actually is a "recognized standard", no standard, then no legal traceability. So until the process of legal traceability is actually completed, which as I understand is still going through what is actually quite an involved and time consuming process then GPS measurements can not be used as evidence in court.

Each State still basically recognizes the limitations of GPS measurements. E.g These directions do not represent legal traceability of measurement from NSW Surveyor General (http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/publications/sgdir9w.pdf)

So what do these higher order surveying examples mean with respect to the subject, these are examples where survey GPS type equipment and procedures don’t meet legal traceability hence straight GPS SPS positions (what boaties are using), well these won’t even come close to ever meeting legal requirements.

As for relying on GPS Mariners are thus advised not to put total and absolute reliance for the safe navigation of their vessel solely on GPS.
You’ll find that in the AMSA Reliance on GPS for Navigation (http://www.amsa.gov.au/shipping%5Fsafety/marine%5Fnotices/2002/marine%5Fnotices%5F07%5F02.asp)

As for Electronic Chart systems (ECS) the type which is found in any commercial vessel and many recreational vessels and the type which will have this zoning included, again there are reasons why not only the GPS is considered unreliable but also the charts As is explained Here (http://hydro.gov.au/eproducts/echarting/explained.htm) and quoted

Legal Status of ECS
There are no agreed standards for ECSs or the versions of the charts that they use. Because of this, ECSs are NOT recognised as an alternative to paper charts where charts are required to be carried under Australian or International Regulations.

So you see jockey your going to have to deal with the facts, through and through and when you've read and understood (hopefully that will take quite some time :D) all of those links, "understood" probably being the important bit for you, then come back and lets all hear it ;D.

Cheers, Kerry.

[kc]

Hi Jockey,

You cough up the 220 grand & I'll go get busted for the publicity value. I don't use a GPS because I usually only fish around the Islands and up the river. If I go to the reef it's with mates.

The new zones effect everywhere, not just out wide. 185,000 queenslanders own and fish out of boats. Usually with at least 1 other person and often 2. That would put close to 1/2 the rec fishing community in boats at least.

Have you changed your email address?/ I tried again and it got bounced. Please send me an email at kc@whitsunday.net.au and I will send back the research papers and info from the zoning plan

Regards

KC

[Kerry]

....Marking where the green zone boundaries reach a beach would be pretty easy and I think that is what we should be focussing our criticism on.

Oh my ::) did this character actually read the first post :o you know the firing of cannons across bays instead of following LWM etc etc in defining zone coastal boundaries.

They do say that sleep inproves memory retention, have a little nap jockey you've got a sh.. load of reading and understanding to do ;D.

Cheers, Kerry.

[jockey]

Kerry you don't need to confuse the shit out of everyone by talking about ancient maritime laws to get that point accross. You can hardly talk about not reading or understanding posts.

[Kerry]

Kerry you don't need to confuse the shit out of everyone by talking about ancient maritime laws to get that point accross. You can hardly talk about not reading or understanding posts.

hey you little arogrant prick this is what is actually involved in the actual GBRMPA zoning plans but you not knowing or realizing what this post was actually about shouldn't surprise anyone so go ask them why they talking about old laws, THIS WAS THE WHOLE QUESTION OF THE POST marking boundaries and how jo blow knows how to locate the boundaries for their own protection if you hadn't realized.

But then when wacks start sprouting off about GPS being accurate to a metre or so in the context of these zonings then I simply shake my head, but then I've heard worse.

Cheers, Kerry.

[jockey]

So anyway, moving on - should we just ask the government to put a marker on all the spots where the green zones cross the beach? That would force them to resolve the issue of the cannon law.

[nulla]

If you are allowed to fish somewhere going by the map but not by the official rules and you got booked for it you would take it to court and get off..

Having watched the debate over GBRMPA, Green Zones and Fisheries Management from the sidelines for some time, I could no longer sit in silence and registered with Ausfish yesterday

The debate has been interesting but I could not sit idle when I read a statement made in all inocence that is not just misinformed but in fact WRONG.

Sorry jockey but I can't sit back without commenting on your posts.

While I disagree with a lot of your comments, your statement regarding relying on GBRMPA's maps and using this as a defence where you innocently break the law is WRONG.

Ignorance of the law is no defence. Ask a WA pro crayfisher. He sought advice on where he could and couldn't fish from the appropriate Govt Dept and was later convicted for fishing in a closed area because he was given the wrong advice. The judge stated he would rather the charge had not been brought before the courts but had no choice. THE LAW WAS BROKEN AND THAT WAS THAT.

If anyone thinks that accidentaly fishing in a green zone will be forgiven THINK AGAIN. THE MAPS ARE NOT THE LAW THE ZONING PLAN IS.

[baldyhead]

Slightly off topic BUT...... In the old days of 27meg CB, we used to have the RATBAGS who liked nothing more than to interrupt and ramble on with rubbish, talk bloody garbage and hold the button down etc, to get a reaction from anyone willing to satisfy their warped ego, by coming back at them or answering their calls etc. All that it achieved was for the regular blokes and sheilas to get upset by the carrying on of the RATBAGS who thrived on the inconveniences that they caused.
The way that we fought back was by NEVER replying or acknowledging them in any way. This must have infuriated some of the RATBAGS as they tried everything to get a response from anyone, without success.
Eventually the RATBAGS disappeared and all was well and when a new one appeared we gave him/her the same treatment.
WORKED EVERY TIME!

cheers Baldy