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yockman
26-07-2004, 03:51 PM
Following on from the broken leg, imagine you're 15 miles offshore in the usual 10-15 knot sou'easter. Your mate, the only other person on board, grabs his chest, groans, and hits the deck unconscious. What do you do??

BTW, I don't have any definitive answer, looking for clues myself.

Cheers and hope it doesn't happen to you!!
Yockman

blaze
26-07-2004, 04:08 PM
mayday, mayday

mackmauler
26-07-2004, 04:11 PM
dont go giving my deckies any ideas, I really dont wanna think about the mouth to mouth part :o

NQCairns
26-07-2004, 04:17 PM
I used to go boating with a very unhealthy looking and sounding mate. I bought one of those plastic resusitation covers that you place over the patients mouth to breath into and took it every trip. That piece of plastic calmed my imagination very nicely ;D.
With reference to your question continue CPR within reach and earshot of the VHF and await the helicopter???

nonibbles
26-07-2004, 04:20 PM
Hold him over the side by the bottom jaw whilst supporting the body until he kicks and moves off. If he doesn't then there's the food chain argument... ::)

GiddyUp
26-07-2004, 04:29 PM
Ring Eddie for a lifeline

jewies
26-07-2004, 04:42 PM
dont go giving my deckies any ideas, I really dont wanna think about the mouth to mouth part :o

what if its a lovely lady deckie robbo ;D

philip_thomson
26-07-2004, 05:39 PM
i agree with giddyup about phoning eddie for a lifeline. there are two possible answers here so 50 50 should be the best lifeline.

no nibbles i also like your answer.

hmm decidions decisions.

the grabing the chest and fulling unconcious is the scary part probably go for a may day call as it is quite ergent.

cheers

yockman
26-07-2004, 06:02 PM
:o :o ; :) :) :D :D ;D ;D
Wickedly funny answers, guys, there's that black aussie humour again. But seriously.....

philip_thomson
26-07-2004, 06:08 PM
mine was serious wasn't it?

aquarius
26-07-2004, 06:17 PM
I was on a charter boat some years ago off the Gold Coast when an elderly gentlemen started to have heart trouble. :o
We were 20 nauticle miles off the coast and in 2 metre swells.
The skipper promtly got on the radio for help and it was about an hour latter that a chopper and doctor arrived on the scence.
They tried to winch the doc down onto the deck but with the rough sea gave that idea away.
Next thing the doc was being dropped out of the chopper into the boiling sea.......Bloody brave if ya ask me but i suppose it comes with the job.
The doctor then swam over to the charter boat and stabilized the heart attack victim.
He then attached a belt around both guys and said we are going to jump overboard and i will swim away from the boat so the chopper can winch us to safety.
This manover worked well and before long they were on the way to the hospital.......lucky guy did survive the ordeal.
By now the police and rescue boats had arrived on the scene and they took his mates back to shore and we carried on our day charter.
Guess anything is possible miles out at sea but its good to know help is at hand if you need it........just need to make sure you carry all the saftey gear!!
Cheers Brent

MY-TopEnder
26-07-2004, 06:19 PM
1- roll into the safe position to allow a clear airway
2- check pulse
3- MAYDAY MAYDAY call
4- To assist in the chopper getting to your location, switch on your EPIRB

yockman
26-07-2004, 06:19 PM
It certainly was, Phil. I must say, confronting this situation is my secret nightmare fear after seeing something similar happen in a shopping centre recently. The gentleman had a stroke, not a heart attack as diagnosed by all the punters present at the time. Not that anyone really knew what to do, except for the "call Eddie" option....

philip_thomson
26-07-2004, 06:23 PM
yeah it is scary that most people don't know what to do in the case of an emergency. i did a first aid course last year at school and have a slight understanding. however i think one of the big issues is the public litigation stuff. basically if you go to help someone and they get worse of then they can sue you or have you charged. this is pathetic as you are trying to be a good citizen and help them out. so i think a few people know what to do but alot are to scared to attempt anything.

cheers philip

MulletMan
26-07-2004, 10:05 PM
Rebait his line and chuck it over again I guess!

el_carpo
26-07-2004, 10:24 PM
Found this. The main page lists a lot of different scenarios.

http://www.healthy.net/scr/article.asp?id=1786

Jeremy
27-07-2004, 03:57 AM
Sorry to be picky but Mayday is not the correct answer. The correct radio call is 'Pan Pan, Pan Pan, Pan Pan" - this is the urgency call and is used in cases of medical emergency. Mayday can only be used if the vessell is in imminent and dire danger etc. Heavy fines apply for incorrect use of the Mayday call.

I'm surprised TheCommodore from Vicky Pt VMR didn't comment on this??

Jeremy

bidkev
27-07-2004, 04:46 AM
I've had two "devil's warnings" previously but thankfully, none in the last 4 yrs. On both occasions the pain was excruciating and on the first occasion I collapsed in a shopping centre......(always knew that I'd pull a crowd one day) :-)
Luckily my deckie works in a cardio-thoracic transplant unit and knew exactly what was happening.

There's not a lot the layman can do if the patient is conscious other than get 'em to hospital as quickly as poss and reassure and comfort them.

There are a number of problems that can present as a heart/angina attack the commonest being "reflux". Anginin administered as a tablet or spray under the tongue relieves the pain almost instantly and I carried it for a number of years. Unfortunately it has a short "sell by date" and you have to make sure that it is "fresh" and that you get repeat prescriptions. It isn't readily available to be placed in first aid boxes of commercial enterprises such as Charters, Airlines etc, as has been mentioned, the danger of litigation for wrongful adminstration is a possibility. I think that's a shame 'cause it could save thousands of lives yearly. It also (strangely) relieves the pain from the other problems that present as heart problems so relief from pain via this "heart medicine" does not neccessarily indicate heart problems.

If someone is a "high risk factor" or has had previous problems a GP may prescribe a few "cautionary tablets" if that person is going to be beyond the "acceptable" reach of normal medical services or is subjected to high stress levels......I suppose crossing a bar in a boat may qualify :-)

........and yeah Jeremy..........Pan Pan Pan is the way to go, not Mayday.

cheers

kev

Dr_Dan
27-07-2004, 05:19 AM
Phillip

As far as I know, no one has been sued in Australia for a good samaritan act. The only place litigation comes into play in this case is if the person tries to do something that they havent' been properly trained in doing (try to improvise a chest drain).

In this scenario, do all DRABC, make radio call (don't know which one), if need commence CPR and EAR, keep doing CPR and EAR until help arrives.

I heard of a guy off townsville that was out at the reef, a guy had a heart attack. ONe of his mates did CPR for 45mins while the boat raced back to the wharf. ANyone who has done CPR (either real or first aid course) woudl realise that after 5 mins, most people are ROOTED! Just goes to show how good adrenalin is!

Dan [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

imported_admin
27-07-2004, 06:20 AM
basically if you go to help someone and they get worse of then they can sue you or have you charged.

Not correct. If you have been trained in first aid and hold a current Senior First Aid certificate and do everything by the book then you are fine.

In a case were if you did nothing and the person would have died then they could not sue you for assisting them, because if you did nothing they would be dead.

I would suggest that everyone, even if you don't own a boat or go on one, do a Senior First Aid Course. This could come in handy around home with the family, not just while you are fishing.

You can do a course with St Johns, QLD Ambulance or Red Cross and costs about $130.00

As Dan said, DRABC, make a call either radio or 000 and then do CPR and/or EAR.

D - Danger (For yourself and the person)
R - Response (COWS - Can you hear me, Open your eyes, Whats your name, Squeeze my hand)
A - Airway
B - Breathing
C - Circulation

Burley_Boy
27-07-2004, 01:39 PM
I think that if you do nothing due to the fact that you might get sued then you are in great danger of getting done for doing nothing, ie manslaughter charges. You can't just watch someone die and say that you were afraid of getting sued.... I think... but I'm no lawyer. If you do have a lawyer on board I think you start by chucking him over.

Just a note on the Epirp, I'd heard that they were about as accurate as ...as ... heck can't think of anything but in other words + or - 10 to 20Kms. Can anyone confirm the actual accuracy of the Epirb as I would just not bother and just give them a GPS co-ordinate (just after easing off my favourite mark). ;D

Billo
27-07-2004, 01:42 PM
Don't take the bugger out next time #??? ??? :-/

no seriously ...all u can do is call in assistance and run with the DRABC ...( and i would flick the EPIRB on )

should have told him to start coughing before he dropped ..

little tip for those of you who feel a heart attack coming on ...START COUGHING !!!! the pressure from each cough will push blood through your heart ...the usual case of holding your breath trying to eleviate the pain will just KO you and thats when the heart stops !

coughing continously will keep the blood circulating and could give you those extra vital minutes . . i have been told in the case of a minor heart attack that purely coughing alone can keep you on your feet another 10 minutes or more

burley boy , on the epirb , depends of the model ...mine is just an old anolouge , which can put them around 6km of my position .,....believe the new digital wil lposition you to well within 500 metres ??? soon to be mandatory !( 2007 ? )

bidkev
27-07-2004, 03:15 PM
<snip> little tip for those of you who feel a heart attack coming on ...START COUGHING !!!! the pressure from each cough will push blood through your heart ...the usual case of holding your breath trying to eleviate the pain will just KO you and thats when the heart stops !

coughing continously will keep the blood circulating and could give you those extra vital minutes . . i have been told in the case of a minor heart attack that purely coughing alone can keep you on your feet another 10 minutes or more

<snip>


Sorry Billo, that's an old wive's tale. The pain is caused by lack of oxygen (carried by the blood) to the heart muscle. The body's natural defence is to have you gasp for air, a characteristic of heart attacks. Coughing leads to expulsion of air (prematurely), restriction of the chest cavity, prevention of the natural breathing process and subsequently lower oxygen usage by the blood, and all this is likely to exacerbate the situation.

cheers

kev

boatboy50
27-07-2004, 03:18 PM
Hey Guys,
The posts about the sueing thing are right. As long as you are qualified, and do what you were trained and nothing else, you will never be sued. Cant be worring about this sort of stuff, whats the world coming too.
Just do the DRABC and get help urgently (who cares what call you make - they wont care, and you wont be fined!)
The EPIRBS are great, far more accurate than you guys have quoted, but the beauty of them is that the helicopter can get the accuracy, not the base station. The Helicopter will pick up the exact location upon flying anywhere near it.
Regards
Darren

oscar
27-07-2004, 03:19 PM
My VHF radio is connected to the GPS. I believe, (don't intend trying it) I lift the protection flap on the radio and press the "Distress" button, it transmits my position to whoever on channel 16!
oscar

Mattman
27-07-2004, 03:37 PM
amputate at the chest ;) ;D

subzero
27-07-2004, 05:05 PM
Gidday Jeremy, you arent quite right.
Straight from the AMC handbook.
Page 29
Section 11 Distress communications. (Distress = Mayday)
53 Definition and priority of distress
53.1 A distress call has absolute priority over all other transmissions and indicates that the vessel OR THE PERSON using it is threatened by grave and immenent danger and requests immediate assistance.

Section 12. Urgency and safety signals. (Urgency = Pan Pan)
67.2 Use of the safety signal (and message), indicates that the station sending it has a VERY URGENT message to transmit concerning the safety of a vessel, aircraft or person.

This subject is always very messy... write or wrong, do what you think is best. You wont be prosecuted unless you make a false or misleading call intentionally... i.e you new it was gonna cause a ruckus needlesly!!!!!

2 scenarios.
your mate is on the boat with you... he complainds of chest pain... he tells you he suffers from angina, slips a pill under his tongue but you and or he are concerned about the possible outcome if his condition worsens WITHOUT assistance.... MAKE THE PAN PAN....
Scenario 2... your mate drops to the floor of the boat... he isnt breathing... you cant find a pulse..... Make the MAYDAY!!!!!! Begin CPR.... think what you are gonna tell his wife and kids.. prepare for extreme exaustion.... I am not sure of the actual figures but it is something like only 26% of resucitations are succesfull if begun in the first 3 minutes... thats STILL 26 people in 100... well worth the effort if you can keep it up.... expect NO PROFFESSIONAL HELP even locally for an hour on water... Last year, top ofMorton, 3 young people performed CPR on their dad for 1 hour 25 minutes before VKR finaly succesfully organised PROFFESSIONAL medical help..... Many panicked radio calls from those poor exausted kids on the boat... Needless to say, the outcome was not what was hoped for... ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE for them, and also those listening to a lesser extent.... Frankly I felt bloody sick....

Another scenario
Engine broken down, wind blowing boat on to S/W rocks in MB... No anchor, (not uncomon)... night time... middle of the week.... You feel you are in grave and emenant danger... this is either the boat will sink, or you are likely to drown before help may arrive... MAYDAY

Engine broken down, wind blowing boat on to S/W rocks in MB... No anchor, (not uncomon) Day time, weekend when their are plenty of boats about... Pan Pan if you really must.... but normally you would use routine comunications with VMR/Coastguard...
AT ANY TIME YOU CAN CHANGE YOUR CALL... Upgrade it.. or downgrade it.... You may be asked by the Rescue unit, would you like to change the priority of that call... (Brave move from them if you do and something goes wrong).... at the end of the day.. THE VESSEL IN DISTRESS controls comunications either till they cant, or they hand over that responsibility....

Two identical events... but in different locals can result in two or 3 entirely different calls..
Break down in the bay, Routine, breakdown 100nm to sea, possibly Pan Pan, break down 100nm to sea, storm coming, possibly Mayday. YOUR CHOICE
Hope this helps

subzero
27-07-2004, 05:22 PM
Sueing for qualified first aiders... can be a rock and a hard place....
We had a member at the unit who was an X Gold Coast SLSC member...
He was prosecuted BECAUSE he was a current first aider on patrol when they had a drowning.... rightly or wrongly... he performed the wrong compression ratio.... at least he did something.... unfortunately a news crew was on the scene and filmed him doing it... the bloke could not be rescucitated... and remained deceased....
Leagal beagles got a court order for the footage... used it as a basis for a successful prosecution.... Dave had a nervous breakdown... he already felt bad enough anyway... either got kicked out of SLSC or resigned not sure wich... didnt like to talk about it much... (Not surprisingly)....
You may recall an instance on the Coast last year when SLSC members performed a barricade to STOP NEWS CREWS FILMING a resus and the news got cranky about it... WONDER WHY!!!!!!

This 18 year old was a nice young bloke, couldnt handle the pressure and gave VMR away... he was very good in a boat and was the helmsmen on VP2 when they dragged the 22 people of "Dreamtime" as she was going down and breaking up on at the bottom of Morton a couple of years back....
Vollunteering.... IT ISNT WHAT IT SHOULD BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

philip_thomson
27-07-2004, 06:22 PM
hey guys thanks for clearing me up on the sueing of trying to help someone. good to hear it isn;t as bad as i thought. after reading some of these posts i think i will go and do a senior first aid course never know when something can go wrong.

thanks again
cheers philip

Burley_Boy
27-07-2004, 06:23 PM
Lawyers & opportunists
[smiley=angryfire.gif] [smiley=angryfire.gif] [smiley=argue.gif] [smiley=angryfire.gif] [smiley=argue.gif] [smiley=angryfire.gif] [smiley=furious2.gif]

subzero
27-07-2004, 06:28 PM
Well said Burleigh_Boy... dont forget news crews... bloody vultures

trout3030
27-07-2004, 06:38 PM
Agree with Dr Dan. As long as you act within the training you have completed then no one will win a law suit against you.

el_carpo
27-07-2004, 06:56 PM
Does Australia have a "Good Samaritan" law? Where you are alright as long as you acted in good faith? For example, if I saw a man lying in a highway unconcious, it would be alright for me to drag him to safety on the side of the road even though doing so may cause him harm. I would be acting in good faith trying to save him from being run over and killed. If you do have such a law, it's probably alright. Any lawyers in the house? Does anyone know the right answer to this. Everyone would like to know for sure. One thing you can do is to ask people what they want you to do if something like this happens. Just ask, "Before we go out there, I need to know about any medical conditions you may have. If anything goes wrong, what should I do for you?" That way, you're in the clear. You have their permission. If you get it in writing, all the better.

yockman
27-07-2004, 06:59 PM
Interesting comments all round here. Cannot, repeat, just can not come at the idea of doing nothing for fear of being sued. On the subject of maydays, I've only ever heard one. A mate who was sinking in very cold water and rough seas in Tas. He was in denial about how bad his situation was and refused to call it a mayday. Went down and was very lucky to be picked up, just alive. But out on the reef off Cairns a few weeks ago, I heard a guy call one who was in no danger at all.Better to be safe than sorry , I guess.

subzero
27-07-2004, 07:10 PM
Gidday Al_Carpo, different states have different laws. NSW and Victoria had fairly comprehensive protection for "Good Samaritans" from memory.
Queensland had no protction whatsoever untill early this year.
This has now been put in place here because of several incidents where Vollunteers were put in a lot of strife. I have read the legislation that was put in place for Vollunteers and it is now reasonably adequate... if you do something really stupid, you are on your own...
The gov had to do something in our situation as Vollys were getting very edgy and a lot of people did start to toss it in as a result... If they didnt put some protection in place, in a couple of years time their wouldnt have been to many volluntary services still running...
Not much of an answer for you, but at the end of the day I beleive you have to live with your own concience and do what you have to do... wouldnt get much out of me anyway :)
I have helped out a few times throughout the years at motor accidents etc, never give it a though about getting sued, during or after... I would be severely piss#d if someone hesitated and didnt help my kids if they needed it... [smiley=rifle.gif]

el_carpo
27-07-2004, 07:15 PM
You're absolutely right Yockman. #I couldn't just stand there and watch someone suffer and die without trying to do something to save him either. #If he sued me for it later, then I'd watch him suffer and die as I beat him to death with a heavy, blunt, metal object! #>:(...;D #;D #;D

Thanks for the info. on the Samaritan laws. I'm glad some changes were made. That is horrible that the volunteers were getting blasted for doing nothing more than trying to help. And, yes, I'd be angry too if no one saved a family member of mine too, for fear of a law-suit.

subzero
27-07-2004, 07:19 PM
If you THINK its a Mayday, its a Mayday... thats the way I look at it in the real world...
I wouldnt hesitate to put one out if I thought I was in real strife.
In truth, put out a Pan Pan, you get a pretty good response and normally very quickly... you put out a Mayday, Water Police will direct every available resourse in your direction including Rescue 500 in all probability. If someone dies that could have been prevented by directing more or better resourses, their necks are seriously on the line. If you call a Pan Pan, and someone croaks, then you should have called a Mayday and that is what will be said in the Coroners court...
Like i said, if I am in serious trouble, I know which call I will make ;)

jaybee
27-07-2004, 07:19 PM
El Carpo
Good Samaritan" law? no we don't simple as, it boils down to duty of care, first to the person giving first aid, then to the vic, i only did an upgrade of my first aid, last week, and its a lot deeper then discussed here, and i will not go into, but after reading a few posts, methinks its time everyone who has a first aid cert, in the last 3 yrs are in for a shock on the refresher.
cheers
Joe.

NQCairns
27-07-2004, 10:49 PM
Good point Subzero [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

Jeremy
28-07-2004, 03:36 AM
OK Thanks for the clarification on the use of the mayday and urgency calls Subzero (Lloyd).

Cheers,

Jeremy

oscar
28-07-2004, 04:21 AM
So the correct answer to yockman's question, was correctly given by blaze in the first reply.
Maybe we should take more notice of what he says, and bring him to the M & G. :D
oscar

caloundra
28-07-2004, 12:45 PM
ok
what equipment should you carry legaly (is there a web site witch lists what must be carried)
and what other safety equpment is recomended to take to sea
that you dont leave home without.

Daniel

bidkev
28-07-2004, 01:59 PM
ok
what equipment should you carry legaly (is there a web site witch lists what must be carried)
and what other safety equpment is recomended to take to sea
that you dont leave home without.

Daniel

Hi Daniel,

You can obtain (for free) a boating handbook from the department of Transport that lists essential equipment and also the "rating" of the waters. For example there are different requirements for where you intend to go in Moreton Bay.

Other equipment may be considered essential by some, but not legally required eg a knife........ sounds stupid I know, but I knew a guy who feel asleep on a rising tide. The boat turned, he got his anchor warp around his engine and the first thing he knew was that he fell off his seat. The boat was being pulled under by the stern and he couldn't find a knife and couldn't undo the warp......he went under.

bay_firey
28-07-2004, 02:33 PM
yeah it is scary that most people don't know what to do in the case of an emergency. i did a first aid course last year at school and have a slight understanding. however i think one of the big issues is the public litigation stuff. basically if you go to help someone and they get worse of then they can sue you or have you charged. this is pathetic as you are trying to be a good citizen and help them out. so i think a few people know what to do but alot are to scared to attempt anything.

cheers philip

Philip
As far as first aide goes there is a an act of parliment "The Good Will Act"
which indemnifies people from prosecution provided that you don't do anything that is obviously neglegent (sit on the patients chest whilst trying to do mouth to mouth), stick to the things that you are taught, do it the way you are taught and you can't be sued.