Greenies good or bad

[Dug]

Given recent discussions are greens a good thing or a bad thing ?

Given that they are responsible for most of the GBRMR but have also stopped toxic dumping around cities and stopped things like oil drilling on the reef Are they Good bad or a bit of both? #[smiley=angel.gif] [smiley=devil.gif] [smiley=freak.gif]

[megafish71]

Greenies are like most things in life, good in moderation, but lately I must say they appear to be a bit over the top.
Ron

[raefpud]

In this day and age its hard to classify someone as anything, however when talking about Hippies or greenies or environmental activists or whatever the hell you want to call them, I have quite often found them to have incredibly bias views or opinions on many topics - They tend to be passionate about what they believe in, only problem then is that they tend to think with their hearts and not with their heads.

[Dug]

Raef could not agree more I hate emotional greenies but like the green movement and think we would be stuffed with out it. I eat kangaroo meat, I fish, but don't think it is good to chop down old growth forests or mine the barrier reef.

[Local_Guy]

i heard 1 politicial say the best reply to a greenie
"get a job"
can't remember what the question was from the Greenie. but i couldn't agree more with the politician on this remark.

have to respect the greenies as they make people aware of certan things, like chopping down forests, but i think they have a lot to improve on.

[el_carpo]

I guess it depends on the greenie. Some are probably decent people who truly care about the environment, others are communists who pretend to care about the environment and use their operation as a revenue raising front. Then there are the others who care about the earth but maim, vandalise, and terrorise to promote their agenda. The last group are the empty-headed, Hollywood folks who don't care about anything more than their careers and fame and go to these protests to get publicity. Almost all are far left and as raefpud so perfectly put it don't think with their heads but follow their hearts exclusively.

Who, in their right mind, would want ancient forests to be chopped and "clear-cutted"? Who wants to see our oceans become poisonous, barren puddles? Who wants to breath cancer-causing air pollution? No one. But believe it or not, there are greedy scumlings out in the world who would bring those things about. So, in the end we're stuck between crazy leftist violent political zanies and greedy corporate money-munching swine. Maybe we, the humble fisher-folk, who through our dedication to our most holy of mortal activities (fishing) have achieved both a spiritual and intellectual Nirvana, can lead the way to the perfect Earth. An Earth free of pollutants. Oceans full of healthy, trophy-sized fish (to catch, photo and release or eat--and write about on Ausfish). Forests teeming with diverse life (to hunt and eat). Clear boat-ramps to launch our fishing craft from completely devoid of rude foul-mouthed jerks. 2 mile an hour speed limits for jet-skiers near fishing areas. A free can of your favorite beverage with the purchase of bait. A comfy couch for me to run to on the top of Mount Everest when I see a shark swim nearby! ;D Better yet, friendly, toothless sharks. Beautiful mermaids to....well, that may be asking for too much there.

Anyway, you get the idea. One thing we fishermen and women can do is to clean up after ourselves. Leave nothing behind. No tangled line, hooks, bait containers etc. or any other trash of any kind. We definately don't want to give the enemy (anti-fishing greenie groups) any ammo to use against us.

E.C.

[seafox]

Well put el_carpo greenies have there uses and there is good and bad amongst all versions of greenies sometimes they just p*** me off and sometimes you just have to admire them but what would the world be like without these fascist. And I agree you should get a free can of your favourite beverage with the purchase of bait [smiley=devilish.gif]

[CHRIS_aka_GWH]

i respect (although may not agree) with all the but hypocrite green.

Identifying features of the hypocrite include cigarette smoking, drinking coffee & tea & the wearing of cotton apparel (tobbacco, beverage & cotton plantations are responsible for huge tracts of land clearing), driving old smokey cars etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

It troubles me that "Green guesses" are taken as fact.

I recently saw an article by a #respected British environmental scientist that basically said, in regard to climate change, that we humans still regard ourselves far too importantly.

To believe our actions are somehow more influential than the effects of the sun & other cosmic events, without evidence, was ludicrous. He was backed up by several of the worlds leading scholars & physical evidence of climate change long before the industrialise world. Those highly intelligent men, once hailed by the "green movement" when they served the cause were poo-pooed (a technical term) as having "sold out".

I think a green "conscience" is healthy - in balance.

oh & damn the hypocrites !
:-X
chris

[CHRIS_aka_GWH]

how foolish of me ....





Identifying features of the hypocrite include cigarette smoking, drinking coffee & tea & the wearing of cotton apparel (tobbacco, beverage & cotton plantations are responsible for huge tracts of land clearing), driving old smokey cars etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc



it appears I inadvertently left out "diving with grey nurse sharks "

chris

[bidkev]

I do not want to get into a heated political discussion, but write simply to state my belief, that the power that the greens wield, for such a minority party, is unhealthy to any nation, and can lead to disastrous consequences for the world as a whole. The minor 'achievements' of the party are "food for the masses" so do not be blinded by short term benefits.

I'll apologise now to those who may think that I am a bit "heavy" on this, but the Greens have ominous undertones that *I* think we should all be aware of. The fact that they appeal to the youth of today, is particularly ominous (IMHO)

Anyone with time to spare may benefit from an appreciation of what "Green Thinking" may lead to, and how much of it is rooted in Fascism and National Socialism. Heavy reading so again, I apologise.

http://www.spunk.org/library/places/germany/sp001630/peter.html

An excerpt:

"As noted above, this failure most commonly takes the form of a call to "reform society according to nature," that is, to formulate some version of 'natural order' or 'natural law' and submit human needs and actions to it. As a consequence, the underlying social processes and societal structures which constitute and shape people's relations with their environment are left unexamined. Such wilful ignorance, in turn, obscures the ways in which all conceptions of nature are themselves socially produced, and leaves power structures unquestioned while simultaneously providing them with apparently 'naturally ordained' status. Thus the substitution of ecomysticism for clear-sighted social-ecological inquiry has catastrophic political repercussions, as the complexity of the society-nature dialectic is collapsed into a purified Oneness. An ideologically charged 'natural order' does not leave room for compromise; its claims are absolute.

For all of these reasons, the slogan advanced by many contemporary Greens, "We are neither right nor left but up front," is historically naive and politically fatal. The necessary project of creating an emancipatory ecological politics demands an acute awareness and understanding of the legacy of classical ecofascism and its conceptual continuities with present-day environmental discourse. An 'ecological' orientation alone, outside of a critical social framework, is dangerously unstable. The record of fascist ecology shows that under the right conditions such an orientation can quickly lead to barbarism."

Research that I once did into Green Party policies worldwide (when I was younger) showed alarming similarities to what was espoused by Hitler's Nationalist Socialists.........."Mother Germany" has simply been replaced by "Mother Earth". I have been very wary ever since.


cheers

kev (not paranoid) :-)

[BladeRunner]

Greenies do what greenies do best.
That is PROTEST against any little thing right up to a parlitical pain in the arse get what they can, save the trees, save the ocean, save the world .
Do we eliminate greenies when the ozone layer is depleted? and the ice melts, the ocean rise.Can they realy stop all that ? Get real . Nobody told Ron or Valerie Taylor
not to spear fish they had there change back then, look at the tide turn now Green Zones .
Mate there is no fishing on the moon .
At least I got to show my Granddaughter the way to fish and when she is old enougth to make up her own mind. Whatch out .

BladeRunner [smiley=bandana.gif]

[Jim_Tait]

What is a greenie? If any body can give me a definitive statment of what a greenie is I'll tell you whether I think they're good or not.

So far the preceding discussion has covered evertthing from commies to fascists (thats got the full political spectrum covered!), green party members, animal libbers, hippies, protesters etc..

I thinks the whole issues smacks of us versus them syndrome - just about all posters have admitted to some sympathy for nature conservation and perhaps that is what we are really talking about - conservationists? I'm one,- and proud of it and I'm a hunter and a fisher as well - they're not mutually exclusive. I don't mind being called a greenie either if the person is translating it directly as a conservationist - however i generally find the term offensive, and that is often the way it is used.

When I was a kid a greenie was somthing you did in your hanky,.. later it was used by the conservative media to try to discredit and divide the voice of conservationists of issues from the Franklin to the Daintree Rainforest. People are willing to decry the 'greenies' when they're protesting about what ever, but are also willing to enjoy the benefits of the hard won conservation battles afterwards.

I think a more interesting question if we can put the negative sterotype of 'greenie' aside is how many rec fishers consider themselves 'conservationists?' Perhaps if we could unite as conservationists (including some of the greenies) we could have a stronger voice for the benefit of recreational fishing on issues such as catchment management, irrigation water use, fish passage barriers, destruction of wetlands and so on..then again maybe I'm just an idealistic greenie? :-/

[Rev]

What is a greenie?

Perhaps if we could unite as conservationists (including some of the greenies) we could have a stronger voice for the benefit of recreational fishing on issues such as catchment management, irrigation water use, fish passage barriers, destruction of wetlands and so on..then again maybe I'm just an idealistic greenie? :-/



A better view of a greenie is someone to look upon with a wary eye, don't trust them!

They'll shake our hand and hold us close with one hand, telling us they will do the right thing by us if we unite to achieve a stronger voice for the benefit of recreational fishing, whilst picking our pocket with the other hand and locking us out of Fishing areas, far and wide with the promise 'it is for your own good, trust us'!

We can see through you! [smiley=thumbsdown.gif] [smiley=thumbsdown.gif] [smiley=thumbsdown.gif] [smiley=thumbsdown.gif] [smiley=thumbsdown.gif] [smiley=thumbsdown.gif]

Tell us what you're working on at the moment Jim?

And keep your hand out of my pocket!

[Jim_Tait]

Rev,

I've certainly got no desire to put my hand in your pocket (the thought is too scary!),

For client confidentiality purposes I don't intend to tell you exactly what I'm working on at the momemnt but generically I'm happy to say it includes:

River Basin Water Resource Plans (X2)
Eastern Cod Habitat restoration in The Richmond basin
Catchment Management Plan for a floodplain creek in north Queensland
A grazing trial to control exotic pastures in wetlands
A Shire Biodiversity Strategy in South East Qld
A National Framework for the identification and protection of high conservation value rivers
The identification of national biodiversity conservation priorities
A fish survey in central NSW coastal wetlands

There you go Rev, where's the conspiracy in that lot - I don't hide behind web names and I'm up front about who I am and what I do - and quite proud of it. If you can 'see right through me' tell us what the big drama is about and why I would ever consider 'putting my hand in your pocket' - heaven forbid.

While we're at it I'm sick of you using the language (sorry to Ausfish folk but Rev and I have a debating history from another web board) of 'us' (versus them) - who gave you the right to claim that you speak for all rec fishers? speak for yourself mate, as I know a lot of rec fishers who have way more enlightened views of the role of conservation initiatives and don't share your paranoid stance.

Regards - Jim

[Leo_N.]

I'm with you Jim, the word 'greenie' has far too many possible meanings to say if you support their politics or not. I do know that I have had a far more fulfilling life due to the work of previous generations of people who have definately been called 'greenies'.

While we are on the topic of politics and conservation, I would like to ask if anyone knows the political stance of the Fishing Party. All I've been able to discern to date is that they are after more rights for recreational fishermen - what does this mean in terms of what they plan to lobby for?

Will they make more artificial reefs in areas that are open to fishing?

Will they contribute to re-stocking and research into decreasing the downfalls of re-stocking open systems?

Or will they push for opening up as many green zones as they can for the rape and pillagers out there?

[nictim]

Hi Jim
"rec fishers consider themselves 'conservationists"
yes I put my hand up it's not just the youth Im 48 now and getting greener every year sometimes you see thing happen and just shake your head everything now has to make a profit
it's not looking good.

cheers Steve---- :'(

[agnes_jack]

Leo
Drop Kev collins a pm. I'm sure he will send you policy documents etc.

Regards, Tony ;)

[Kerry]

.... Will they make more artificial reefs in areas that are open to fishing?...

Do you think GBRMPA would actually allow that anyway? Do you think they should allow "foriegn" material to be dumped into such a "pristine" (well obviously some will claim that) environment. GBRMPA won't even allow material that came from "their" side of the fence to be put back where it even came from.


.... Or will they push for opening up as many green zones as they can for the rape and pillagers out there?

This is an interesting one as if one can't imagine that some time in the future there could/might be "contracts" let to "work" some of these zones then they should speak up now. To think a gov wouldn't try and justify this type of "operation" in due course would be rather short sighted.

Cheers, Kerry.

[kc]

Hi Leo,

I took a bit of notice of Steve Browns editorial in last months QFM about internet chat rooms getting a bit heavy and maybe those with barrows to push....myself included, should back off a bit and let them be forums for enjoyment and information sharing not battlegrounds.

With this in mind and given you asked the question "what does the fishing party think" I guess I am obliged to answer.

Our actual policy document is a pretty long winded affair and send me a PM (kc@whitsunday.net.au)if you would like it and the supporting research documents in full but in essense.

We support artifical reefs.
We support Pink zones in areas which need protection, not green zones which only remove fishing but allow other damaging impacts to continue.
We support split reefs rather than whole reef green zones for a whole raft of sceintifically sound reasons
We absolutely support restocking programs
We want user groups included in decision making ie a rec fishing rep on the board of GBRMPA
We want a capping on all export fisheries and a percentage of all commercial fisheries directed back to the domestic market
We want to ban all commercial exploitation of billfish.

We don't support green zones who have a basis in politics rather than science like the RAP program.

Leo we are not about rape and pillage......far from it and if this is the vibe you have about us then we have obviuosly been miserable failures at getting the message out. Still, at least we are having a go instead of just sitting on our backsides whinging about it. I notice even within this very thead someone talking about "uniting" and "getting together for the common good", well, we have...it's already done...the people who have joined now have a uniting voice and have input into our policy formation which is pretty green in itself.

You would be amazed at the actual clout we are already getting at a political level because we are threatening the cosy status quo of the electoral system. No fishing "lobby group" and in this I include Sunfish, BIAQ and AFTA can come even close to the negotiating power we have when the major parties come to "us" to talk a preference deal (as they are every day at present). The only thing they ever cared about was votes, not us, and now we have an historic chance to change major party policy, just because we put a bit of time and effort in and got ourselves organised.

So Leo, what are you waiting for?? Get on board son, Join up. Heaps of Ausfishers already have and the party is a better organisation because of it.

Regards

KC
The Fishing Party (Qld)

[PinHead]

"River Basin Water Resource Plans (X2)
Eastern Cod Habitat restoration in The Richmond basin
Catchment Management Plan for a floodplain creek in north Queensland
A grazing trial to control exotic pastures in wetlands
A Shire Biodiversity Strategy in South East Qld
A National Framework for the identification and protection of high conservation value rivers
The identification of national biodiversity conservation priorities
A fish survey in central NSW coastal wetlands "

Bloody hell Jim..that is one hell of a workload for one person.

I will admit it..I am very anti-green..especially with all the complete and utter crap bandied about regarding CFC's and the hole in the Ozone layer. That lil episode has cost and is still costing lives...what for..one company's paranoia regarding their patents expiring.

Most people that protest regarding so call conservation items have a severe case of NIMBYitis.

eg. road through koala habitat at Springwood
supermarket at Maleny

I saw Steady Eddie once...the funniest bloke I have ever seen...he asked what the difference between a greenie hippy and a greenie feral is..Answer..the hippy occassionally wears shoes..sums it up perfectly.

[Jim_Tait]

G'day Pinhead,

I'm not doing all the above as solo projects some is in partnership with other consultants (thank ch***t!) it still is a riduculous work load but such if the life of the solo consultant - I'm planning to make more time in my life for family, fishing and fun!

Re: wearing shoes I don't know what wrong with going bare foot anyway - its only consumerist crap that leads us to believe that we have to have up to date fashion, over priced footwear. When I was at primary school in NQ most of us bushy kids never wore shoes to school and I think we were quite happy, healthy and probably tougher for it. Might not be as suitable in the urban jungle though.

Regards CFCs and the hole in the ozone layer - I don't think its crap - there's pretty well documented evidence of the problem and some of the ecological impacts associated with it - not saying there aren't some background industry drivers associated with the response to it though as you seem to be implying.

Regards - Jim.

[PinHead]

Hi Jim,
With the ozone layer and CFC's..I will mention one name - DuPont..simple as that...end of story.

[agnes_jack]

Hey K.C.
That editorial Was by Stephen Booth.

Regards, Tony :-X :-X :-X ;D

[kc]

Whoops, Sorry Tony, your right!! Still made a good point but. Too many posts are just looking for an argument and not really constructive. I am still reading most of them but just not sticking my head in unless it is important.

Cheers mate

KC

[charexblue]

:)interesting :) a bit fiery though.
If a greenie will listen to commonsense from local knowledge
then sometimes, that is a way forward. :)

[Gazza]

Yeah it is a bit docile Charexblue..... :P

See ,when Jim uses words implying like "Recfishos are paranoid" ,if against further lockouts >:( that is a problem.

What is paranoid is the Greenie (the rrrrsole ones ::) ) paranoid ,probably delusional :-X thoughts, on the "precautionary principle".......that is a problem ,and further lockouts.

p.s. heard a funny story ,don't know how true it is ,but i believe it is.........

The last remaining goat was removed from the Byron? lighthouse area ......because......it was eating the vegatation
(that a lot of goats had been eating for a century or so?)

That's laughable hey ???
Then you gotta look at , whether , as Jim states , he is "but oneman " doing lots of "goodstuff"......
Trouble with that is that all these individuals aren't co-ordinating their goals e.g. if they had more burnoffs , not as much ash would settle in rivers and kill things , but on the other hand , we have the leave the bush to be "natural" (rrrsoles) ,so we have a BIG bonfire every now and then..... :-X
BBQ koala anyone ??? :P

Yes mate ,the greenies (the rrrrsole ones) are a
REAL pain the BUTT ;)

[smiley=2thumbsup.gif] Gazza

[PinHead]

Gazza..did ya know that down in NSW they banned all forms of buring off a few years back to appease the green movement. Then, the Uni boffins realised that without the regular fires the native plants were not germinating and the imported species were flourishing. Guess what they do now in certain areas? Controlled burnoffs to kill the imported plants and to assist in germination of the native species..amazing huh? So much for the greenies ideas on a lot of issues.

[Dug]

Re goats; there was a population of goats on Townsend island in Shoalwater bay Military training area. Every year the Army would go up and shoot the goats about 700 goats shot in a week but they never got them all. The goats were damaging the environment the greenies (Emotional ) objected to the shooting. A true green solution was to release a pack of male dingos onto the island the killed and ate the goats but could mot breed so will die out leaving the island in good condition for the future. Good green principals bring good results for most people ( not the goats though:-) Emotional greenies just complain but don't give solutions.

I think locking up some areas totally will increase the fish catch in the long run I am for it. Banning netting from costal waters / enclosed will do the same.

Unfortunately we need people who will yell and jump up and down if they don't big business and the government will just bulldoze and harvest the lot for a short term profit and bugger the future for the rest of us.

[Gazza]

Are they the dingoes that are starving and eating the tourist population of Fraser..... :-X

Long Live Lantana...... :-X

hehehehe.....back to reality ,GREEENIES (the rrrsole ones) are rrrrsoles :-X

[Jim_Tait]

You guys still haven't defined what a greenie is. People winging about shooting goats arn't greenies in my book but animal rights libbers. The problem with using deogrative terms like 'greenie' loosely is that good people and causes get tarred with the same brush as extreemists and rat bags and aothers with misguided emotive based arguments - what I call the 'Walt Disney' syndrome. So come up with the definitive definition of a greenie or use a word like conservationists. If you do the latter you might fine we can find that more of us can agree about the need for conservation and also find that a lot of people/groups that get referred to as 'greenies' are in fact not conservationists but something else. Greenie - comes from the word green which comes from ecology - concerns about goats getting a bullet, stressed chooks or the commercial Kangaroo harvest are not ecological concerns but about animal rights - these are not greenies.

By the way Pinhead if you can find one piece of published evidence that all fires 'were banned' in NSW a few year ago (besides hearsay BS) I'd be interested to see it.

Regards - Jim

[PinHead]

"Greenie - comes from the word green which comes from ecology - concerns about goats getting a bullet, stressed chooks or the commercial Kangaroo harvest are not ecological concerns but about animal rights - these are not greenies."

Ecology - n. branch of biology dealing with living organisms' habitats and modes of life.

I would assume that an animal is a living organism therefore their habitats ands them would be included in ecology.

My definition of a greenie...anyone that complains about land clearing for the purposes of building, for the purposes of farming and mining or any other enterprise on privately owned land. Anyone that whines about cruelty to animals when the owners are conducting a business withion the current regualtions etc.

If people want to stop privately owned land from being cleared..easy..buy it.

As for Bullshit hearsay..most of the drivel emanating from so called scientists is BS anyway..the puppeteers who pay their grants pull their strings and the findings are always what the puppet masters want. Very rarely does this vary...I will never be convinced that a researcher working for a company will ever arrive at findings, and publish same, that adversely affect the company.

[Kerry]

As for goats on Townsend and like many other islands, they were an introduced species and in some cases deliberately introduced as an aid to shipwrecks. Just that these days there are not that many shipwrecks ;) but there's still a few guys kicking around today who survived (actually on Townsend) due to the goats.

As for damaging the environment of Townsend #;D if anybody has ever been up on the ridge line, where the targets are one will also see what 1000 lb'rs do on impact. There's more shapnel on that island than rocks :o

Cheers, Kerry.

[hoge]

The only true wilderness is between a greenies ears.

I am keeping this short to save on paper which will save a tree which will feed a family of goats for a very long time.

mick

[charexblue]

:)still interesting still fiery [smiley=angryfire.gif]
hmm [smiley=confused.gif] Jim & Pin seem to be debating 2 different groups of people [smiley=book2.gif] Pin seems to be talking about the highly vocal, media chased group.???? [smiley=end.gif]
Yet Jim seems to be talking about people who want to quietly do on ground works in their own area to try and improve things ?? [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]
??? aren't those people usually farmers and local community
poeple who would be [smiley=veryangry.gif] if called greenies??? Yet do conservation by doing things as they see what is needed ? usually with no tv crew or journalist in sight.
:) had to laugh at some comments by others quite true ;D
All The best if I Don't Get [smiley=hanged.gif] Peter

[Gazza]

Yep Charexblue.....wish i called my kid that ;D :D :D :D ,I agree.

And by the 'poll'....
Greenies are BAD wins :o

27 say bad ,+ 30% of the not sure dudes ,is another 9 BADS ,and the 7+ who reckon GOOD are obviously ::) and should have the letters d'hd ,after their name ,and are not counted!! :o ;D

So the concussus is BAD ,by a majority , statistically speaking.
;D
Regards
Gazza