LOST CRAB POTS - $150 TO GET THEM BACK

[Derek Bullock]

Moreton Bay sweep nets 148 illegal crab pots

Almost 150 crab pots were removed from Moreton Bay during a Department of Primary Industries and Fisheries (DPI&F) clean up of illegal fishing gear.

The three-day operation was carried out between Jumpinpin and Coochie Mudlo Island in southern Moreton Bay and involved seven DPI&F officers.

Primary Industries and Fisheries Minister Henry Palaszczuk said 148 crab pots were picked up that were marked incorrectly or not at all.

"While it's unfortunate to see this many crab pots incorrectly marked this is a good outcome for fisheries enforcement," he said.

"There have been a number of complaints about wrongly marked crab pots and crab raiding incidents in Moreton Bay so it was a timely operation."

Mr Palaszczuk said the operation sent a strong message about complying with fisheries regulations.

"Some people might think they are safe because they have their crab pots tucked away in little nooks but the reality is they will be eventually caught," he said.

"DPI&F officers carry out regular patrols of Moreton Bay and its tributaries and are very familiar with the local area and crabbing spots."

Mr Palaszczuk said the 148 crab pots had been taken to a Brisbane DPI&F base at Pinkenba and catalogued.

"The crab pots are held waiting to be collected but I should warn people they face a $150 fine for being in breach of the fisheries regulations," he said.

People are also only allowed to use four crab pots which need to be clearly marked with the owner's name and address and, if using a float, this must also have the owner's name on it.

Mr Palaszczuk said Member for Redlands John English had made strong representations on behalf of local fishers who were concerned about the level of illegal crab pots in the Bay.

For more information about recreational fishing rules visit the DPI&F Fishweb site at www.dpi.qld.gov.au/fishweb

Media contact: Kirby Anderson 3239 3004 or 0418 197 350

[jimnbob]

Derek

Does a 2 litre milk bottle comply with the current regs?

i.e. were some of the illegal because of 'under size floats'

Jim

[Derek Bullock]

I dunno. It's just a press release. Why did you lose some with milk bottles on them.


Derek

[-spiro-]

Thats alot of pots-hope they took the bait out of them-imagine the maggots.

[devocean]

What did they do with all the crabs in them?

[max_power]

I'm sure the DPI will be well fed at this years xmas party... crabs for all!

[Gordon_Scamp]

Niether the 2 litre or 3 litre milk bottles comply with the regulations, the float must not be less than 150mm in any dimension.
Gordon Scamp

[jimnbob]

Thanks Gordon.

I was pulled up by the fisheries guys on the passage a couple of weeks ago. Just pulled the pots who checked catch, pots, boat rego, and asked about licence. 3 pots had milk bottles, everyone was civil and we all went our way.

Might go out an get some legal ones to keep the peace.

Jim (n Bob the deckie)

[Ben_Gray]

If i were to glue 4, 2ltr milk bottles together so that they did not fall apart would this then satisfy the 150mm in all directions regulation? Ide rather do that than have someone pinch a shop bought float ;D

[cooky]

got a friend in the DPI - they keep and eat them. They would most likely deny this publicly though :-X

[Big_Kev]

I know if I was a DPI officer I would do the right thing and throw them back. NOT!!

[Derek Bullock]

You and everyone else Reelhard. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Catch and release crabs, noooooooooooooo way.


Derek

[redspeckle]

The DPI fisherary's should be more worried about the "illegal fishing" that go's on and people that take home undersize Fish Crabs & more than the bag limts & Female Crabs & fishing in Protection Zones and checking Boat Rego + Safety Gear and geting jet ski's out of creeks they are dangerours accident whating to happen i bet they are ones complant about the un mark crab pots and floats to small can,t see them (going to fast thats why)
Someone had to complant about this for them to do this on Crab pots whats going to be next ? pots to big going to be a standard size for every one what a joke

[RobSee]

95 percent of the pots taken were ones that had been there since the Easter holidays.

That is, they were empty, not marked, covered with sh!t etc. All up I they would have got about 10 crabs.. which were "released"

Most of the exercise was just cleaning up after useless victorians who had forgotten where they left their pots and had since pissed off south.

[Derek Bullock]

Hey Rob

Are you speaking with authority there???


Derek

[RobSee]

Let's say I have an inside line or two.

It pays to be on good terms with the authorities. Believe it or not - They are simply trying to do the best job they can. Not out to raise revenue etc

The sooner people realize this... the better

[Derek Bullock]

Thanks Rob

You wont get an arguement from me on that. One of those thankless jobs where everyone is against you .

Cheers


Derek

[caveman]

i have been down the coast at diff times and have actully seen boats in the main boating lane weaving around crab pots, i thought they weren't allowed to put them in the the boating channels

[Gazza]

Niether the 2 litre or 3 litre milk bottles comply with the regulations, the float must not be less than 150mm in any dimension.
Gordon Scamp

I personally don't see a problem with 3L milk bottles at all.... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]
They have a bigger 'surface area' to write on.....
They have a 'higher' profile in the water ,than a 150mm dia. expensive ball, that's 1/3 submerged in calm water , over 1/2 in fast water.....

To me ,3L 'sits' on calm water.......handle 'digs-in' in fast water....and stands up HIGHER!!

Hope Webby? Crab-mac mob? take notice of "commonsense"
that the regs aren't tuned to reality of a safe,cheap float.

[webby]

The Mac has identified the following issues as urgent, and should be dealt with in the Ris .
Issue 1 #Prohitbition of inverted dillies # #(unanimous)
Issue 2 #Redefine structure of existing dillies
To read Dilly means fishing apparatus comprising a frame and a net that hangs no more the 10cm below the frame's horizontal plane when the apparatus is suspended.
Issue 4 #Define surface float to distinguish it from other floats.
The following definition be considered for insertion "surface floats" means a float that is capable of remaining totally or partially above the water surface give the tidal flow or sea condition at the time.

Issue 6 Guidelines for marking of crab apparatus
1 crab pot, collapsible trap or dilly used to take crabs must be clearly defined with the users surname and address.
2. If crab apparatus is not fixed to something extending above the water surface while in use, a line must attach the apparatus to a light coloured surface float other then a yellow one.
3. The surface float must be at least 15cm in every dimension and have the users name written on it.
Issue 11 To be advised By Dept of Transport as this is a marine safety issue
Use Crab pots in navigational channels
1. permitted areas
The permitted area comprises all tidal waters except
A. deepest water chanels marked by approved navigation aids and used exclusively for safe navigation of vessels.
regards

[Gazza]

The Mac has identified the following issues as urgent, and should be dealt with in the Ris .
Issue 1 #Prohitbition of inverted dillies # #(unanimous)
Issue 2 #Redefine structure of existing dillies
To read Dilly means fishing apparatus comprising a frame and a net that hangs no more the 10cm below the frame's horizontal plane when the apparatus is suspended.
Issue 4 #Define surface float to distinguish it from other floats.
The following definition be considered for insertion "surface floats" means a float that is capable of remaining totally or partially above the water surface give the tidal flow or sea condition at the time.

Issue 6 Guidelines for marking of crab apparatus
1 crab pot, collapsible trap or dilly used to take crabs must be clearly defined with the users surname and address.
2. If crab apparatus is not fixed to something extending above the water surface while in use, a line must attach the apparatus to a light coloured surface float other then a yellow one.3. The surface float must be at least 15cm in every dimension and have the users name written on it.
Issue 11 To be advised By Dept of Transport as this is a marine safety issue
Use Crab pots in navigational channels
1. permitted areas
The permitted area comprises all tidal waters except
A. deepest water chanels marked by approved navigation aids and used exclusively for safe navigation of vessels.
regards

Webby ,
10cms is a bit 'slim' once wet and weighted.....should be say 20cms....but understand no "excessive" depth ,is the point???

Address ,is your surname,suburb(only) ,with a DL to back it up ....o.k? (as proof of ownership???)

Yellow...is to be 'the' commercial colour??? ,I assume ,so we can shoot any commercial who's colourblind :P

15cms in every direction is still WRONG ,as a sphere has 150mm "dimension" as its MAX. and any other measurement is smaller than this.......think it thru mate.

Commonsense ,says to me, 15cms or larger in any 2 axis, is better and cheaper...... i.e. 3L milkbottles ;) are legit.

p.s. colour should be "opaque/translucent" NOT clear ,as in softdrink bottles,etc.

Be kind to RecFishos, it's Xmas ;D :D :D :D

[gif]

Webby

I would value your opinion on the argument I have put below, about the wording of the size of crab Pot Floats. #(Regulations #Part 1 #5 (3) #The float must be at least 15 cm in any dimension and have the owner’s name written on it.)

The legal drafting (wording) of Fisheries Regulations has been (sometimes) very poor in the past. #

Amongst DPI&F there has been at times some naïve notion that “people should know what we mean” # #But the Law does not work that way – it’s a word game played by pain in the butt Lawyers

The current definition of Crab Pot Float sizes of 15cm #in ANY dimension would not stand up in Court. # # The word ANY #is not well enough defined. # And so even a 15 cm pencil should pass #- despite what some DPI Officers have recently interpreted it is the Judges (lawyers) interpretation that counts. #Not DPI&F's .

Crab Mac Issue 6 Guidelines has the wording “The surface float must be at least 15cm in every dimension and have the users name written on it.” #

Changing it to EVERY dimension #will cause even more problems. # #There are several commercial floats, some with written approval from DPI&F and designed in Brisbane that would not pass this wording. # #And that would be sad and silly, and probably not the intention of the wording #- but it is the legal result of such wording.

This is because these commercial floats have a waist #- where you can wrap the line. # I have seen one that is the best seller. #It’s a 15 cm foam ball with a large groove or waist. # #At the waist it is below 15 cm. #

The Tacspo (Seahorse brand ) with written approval and designed in Brisbane one is attached photo. #It has a 10cm waist size and would not pass a regulation that said 15cm in EVERY Dimension. #

I have an idea how the wording should be. #

First let’s look at this practically (for a change from the legal nonsense) #I think that a 2 or 3 litre milk bottle is good enough from a visibility view point. # Because it has some shape to it, it is in fact more visible ( as it spins) that a 15cm ball float. # #From a visibility viewpoint, the human eye is caught by several ways # size #colour and movement all contribute.- so a shape like a milk bottle shows movement better that a spherical float.

Milk Bottles are also economical and a good recycling application. #So why not allow Milk Bottles? # #They do the safety task well. # So the law should allow them


My suggested wording is
“A minimum of 10cm in one dimension and at least 15 cm in the other two dimensions” # #

With that wording all the current commercial products AND milk bottles will pass. # It also replaces the word direction with DIMENSION #- there only being 3 #- length width and breadth.


ANOTHER FIX of the Regulations

I have hooked a sandy on a fishing line. # I have read in DPI&F publications that sand crabs can be caught in a pot or a fishing line. # #Yet this is illegal. #There is no reason it should be. # # #I should be able to keep the rare one I get on a fishing line. #I should be able to catch one by hand. # #Well I cannot se e why not? # Can you ?

3 Permitted ways of taking crabs
(1) Crabs may only be taken by using crab pots, collapsible traps, dillies
or inverted dillies.
(2) Not more than 4 crab pots, collapsible traps, dillies or inverted dillies
alone or in a combination may be used at a time.


I would appreciate advice on this one. # I can see no reason not to keep the rare crab caught on a line and hook # - can you ? #Am I missing some thing.

I would appreciate you taking these points to Crab Mac

Gary Fooks

0412 111 573
g.fooks@uq.net.au

[webby]

Hi.
Recommendations for Commerical to be passed.
1. all crab apparatus must be clearly identified with the users primary commerical fishing boat marking.
2. If the cpparatus is not fixed to something extending above the water surface while in use, a line must attach the apparatus to a yellow surface float.
3. The suface float must be at least 15cm in dimension and have only the users primary commerical fishing boat mark on it in black.
4. trotlines must be idetified by a yellow surfacr float at least 30cm in every dimension at each end of the line and
a each surface float must
1 have the user primary commerical boat marking in black
2 have a recogzined radar reflector fitted
3 have a flag attached that is at least 2m above the water
4. have a tag marking that trotline number, total number of trotlinessetr and number of pots on that trotline and
5 have a flashing all round white light attachied if left out overnight.
see attachement
rgards

[gif]

This makes it clear the DPI&F think that milk bottles are illegal. # But with their strict/ odd interpretation of the law ( the word ALL) then I would say that the commercial tascpro poduct in my post above would also be illegal #- excepty that the manufacture has a letter saying its approved?!?!

There are 2 Solutions

1 #- commonsence and some re drafing of the regulations
2 #- A test case #- somone gets fined for using a bottle #- we fight this in Court and see what the Judges interetation is. # I would manage such a case and not charge.
Gary


Received from

Peter Tanner
Senior Project Officer (Technical)
Queensland Boating and Fisheries Patrol
Department of Primary Industries and Fisheries

On Friday 3rd December

Dear Mr Fooks,

Re crab pot floats.

The purpose of a float for crab pots is to;

• be a size that enhances boat safety to minimise fouling boat propellers.

• be large enough to write the owners name on it so it can comply with section 107 of the Regulations.

• assist enforcement officers locating and establishing the number of pots recreational and commercial fishers are permitted to use.

Provided a float measures in any dimension not less than "15cmx15cmx15cm", it would comply with Regulation requirements. A milk bottle or piece of foam that does not meet the minimum dimensions would not comply.

Re education and training.

It appears there is some confusion over what is meant or intended under the regulation, QBFP staff will be advised of this email content and its application. I have been advised by the relevant Fishery Manager that the regulation will be made clearer (15cmx15cmx15cm) for persons to understand. Crab mac is currently reviewing the marking of crab apparatus including floats.


Re our phone conversation this morning.


The current booklet "Guide to Recreational Boating and Fishing in Queensland" issue 1 sets out;

the float size for Crab pots and dillies in tidal waters on page 66, there is no reference to 2 litre or 3 litre milk bottle/container as a suitable float, and

on page 67 under the heading Marking traps and set lines refers to the use of 2 or 3 litre milk container may be used as a float in fresh water. This is restated again on page 81 for Freshwater fishing gear. The Fisheries (Freshwater) Management Plan 1999 permits the use of these things as a float under section 43(4).

[webby]

Well its like bring home 6 snapper and your only allowed 5, rules are rules when and if their approved.
Unless you are a supported of the Dairy Farmers Union, why not join the OPEC Union, as if and when the new size is approved the OPEC Union products are well within the size required and there will be no need for court cases.
regards

[gif]

Webby

Sorry #I cant follow your point.


Test cases are neigher good nor bad #- its just how its done.

Milk bottles IMHO #fulfill the Reason for the laws (as outlined by Mr Tanner) - ie: to be visible.

Yet the law (may) forbid them. #

Therefore if they fulfill the intent of the law #but not the word of the law #then the words are wrong and need to be fixed. #simple.


Does this #make sense ? #I mean, am I being clear?

Gary

[gif]

This floats issue all started becuase Ted from Bracken Ridge was warned by a female Inspector to not use milk bottles again or she would ... ( fine or confiscate)

and the email confirms it is their policy.

[Fitzy]

I'm all for bigger & brighter floats & names etc. I had a gearbox destroyed because of an illegal float was used, an almost invisible clear 1lt drink bottle. Line caught on the prop & wrapped up until the heavy lump at the other end destroyed the prop, shaft, skeg & box. Cost $8000 to get another one from Japan & put the pride & joy off the water for 13 weeks.
I'd still like to have a chat up the bank with the owner of it. As you would expect, no name or address anywhere to be seen.
Thats 1 good reason why they should have names "&" addresses, so guys like me have a door to knock on when we want our $8000 worth.

Cheers,

Fitzy..

[Derek Bullock]

Gary

Are you a lawyer?

"Any dimension" in this context means whichever or whatever way you measure through it. Your analagy that a 15 cm pencil case is flawed unless it is 15 cm long, 15 cm wide and 15 cm deep.

Also I dont see the word "visible" in Tanners comments above. If you are going to quote, by all means do so but dont quote out of context.

Also if you are going to paste the text of someone elses writing, do so in italics or another color so it can clearly be seen what is the original text as opposed to your own comments or interpretation of the original text. (Your post above is all over the place and not clear)

I think it is as simple as that to understand. IMHO your comments are are simply making this issue more confusing for the average fisho or crabber.


Derek

[gif]

Derek

I take your suggestion n italics #and have made a modification - though the citation was introduced and thus undoubted.

You do miss my point.

What do you interpret by ANY dimension ? #...............

What do you interpret by EVERY dimension? ...............

... you seem to have the two confused It seems to me you are ascribing teh word "any" with the meaning of "every".


Failing that, how, in your interpertation of the Regulations, does the orange float " pass"

Visible: #clearly this is an abbreviation of what is meant by be a size that enhances boat safety to minimise fouling boat propellers. # It certainly was in our lenghthy telephone conversation that preceded the email. Ie one purpose of the float is to make the line visible - so to minimise fouling propellers.

Fitzy ably illustrated this issue.



I am not directing my comments or debate at the average #- I am directing them at those with an opportunity to fix the situation. #Webby in particular.

My analogy was a 15cm pencil. # Not a "pencil case". # You have misquoted me and I am offended.

[Gazza]

Webby, the "volumes" of your examples....
1. Cube = 3.375 Litres (don't see many/ANY of those)
2. 3L milkbottle = 3 Litres plus
3. ROUND float = 1.77 Litres #:o :o ..... LESS than a 2L milkbottle #>:(

Commonsense , the regs aren't tuned to reality!!
(the w-o-r-d-i-n-g is a big problem)

As Gary Fooks also pointed out , visual sight and 'movement' make the 3L milkbottle ,safer and cheaper.

As for "she'll be right" if you catch a Muddie on line !!!!
PLEASE change the w-o-r-d-i-n-g to reflect this i.e. to include this. #[smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

Result: no confusion or unnecessarily confiscated equipment by (some) FO's over-zealous interpretation of the "regs"

[mini696]

I read "Any" direction as... You can choose which direction to measure it... ie The object must measure 15cm along one axis only. So a flat circle of paper would be enough.

I dont like that I interperate it that way but its the way I read it.

I believe there should be a wording to state the measurement must be taken through the centre of the object. Not along a face, or the circumference etc. Also that this measurement must be taken along each of the 2 major axis.

There are some pots in the Maroochy which are 5litre oil containers. These are large, but the fool has painted them black!! Also they dont measure 15cm along the base, so they wouldn't comply. What makes these even worse is they were placed in the middle of the ski zone!!

[mini696]

Maybe the wording should say.

"The float must be large enough to fully encompass a 15cm sphere".


Furthur to the 2L debate - I have found its easier to see two 2L bottles tied together (forming a 'V' shape).

Also - What about reflectors?? A couple of them wouldn't go astray.

[Derek Bullock]

Gary

My apologies and no offence intended. Still the same principle though. Pencil would still need to be 15 x 15 x 15.

I believe the word "any" should be interpreted whatever way or whichever way you measure "through" it.

If what you say is true about the red float, then the decision makers have approved it anyway. No doubt the manufacturer submitted it and received that approval. Perhaps someone should do the same with a milk bottle. Without thoroughly researching I pretty sure that somewhere in either the Fisheries Act or Regulations there is a tiny clause somewhere that allows for the approval of such things.

However, if you had a float in your possession that isnt an approved float then you are in the wrong if it doesnt meet the requirement of the 15 x 15 x 15.

Cheers


Derek

[Gazza]

Perhaps someone should do the same with a milk bottle.

Fair point Derek and maybe one for Webby to follow up for 'us' for approval [smiley=2thumbsup.gif] ..... and with an amnesty by the "powers" on 2 or 3L milkbottles ,due to their 'larger volume' compared to the MIN. 1.77L required for 15cm ball floats that are presently and legally condoned.

Don't need the authorities , doing more STEALING (t.i.c. sorta >:( ) ,than the share-farmer Rsoles ,as it is... >:(

[webby]

Lets get thing straight first off, the new measurement reg's have not been approved yet.
Gazza the three diagram i posted, were just showing what 15cm in every direction would look like compared to a milk bottle, and this is the MINIMUM, not the maximum allowed.
Firstly why are floats necessary.
1. For marking of pot placement.
2. For visialibity for moving vessels
The last one is the important one, as i would say anyone who uses a boat has at some stage had a run in or near miss with floats that are unseeable till your ontop of them.
So the bigger the float, the easier it will be for all of us to alter course earlier.
Im not against 3lt mile containerrs, but if the new reg's are approved and im only one vote on the committee, yes they will be illegial.
I think a bit of commensense by all who crab, in using bigger floats and there placement will help make traversing our water a lot easier.
But your still going to get some dumb arse fishos, who have never read the reg's or even no they exist, that will still go out and do their own thing.
Yes the problem will arise that the share farmers, will now be able to spot these bigger floats, but it wouldnt matter if you used a 44 gal drum or a tennis ball their going to find them no matter what its there nature.
Yes it may cost us a little more with bigger floats, but im bloody sure if your a keen enough crabber this is not going to deter you from doing your favourite past time.
Christ just look at the price of fishing tackle these days, and this doesnt seem to deter many from outlaying big dollars to buy the best and you have a better chance of catching a crab then a fish in some of our water ways.
Whats stopping you from taping or glueing two 3lt bottle together, problem solved for those intent or persisting they want to use these containers, just have to drink a little more milk.
AS for crabs caught on handline, christ since the days of Capt Cook people have been pulling them up, and i havent seen or heard of anyone being charged.
But if you want this wording included to cover your butts, will see what we can do.
Some of you seem to intent on the legalities of finding faults with fishing reg's, instead of getting out there and having fun.
What a boaring life you must lead.
regards

[fishsmith]

Here,here Webby,well said(I mean written).............

[Derek Bullock]

Good comments Webby.

For what it's worth I reckon a 6 inch float is still to small anyway.

Cheers


Derek

[adriancorrea]

What about the 5ltr yellow oil container, would that be legal?

Tight Lines
Adrian

PS and no I dont paint mine black lol

[Gazza]

Lets get things straight first off, the new measurement reg's have not been approved yet.

[smiley=2thumbsup.gif]
I know that Webby 8) , that's why ,if some committee is going to dick around , and re-word them ,I'd like them to reflect practical real-world
COMMONSENSE ,whereby a 3L milk-bottle or 'larger' volume than the presently approved 15cm sphere i.e. 1.77Litres ,is o.k. to use also ,in black and white

Sheeesh ,like pulling hens teeth at times ::) , hope the "rest of the committee" :P see the logic [smiley=2thumbsup.gif]

[Mad_Barry]

Webby,

I did your survey some time back re: crabbing
good to see you're getting somewhere with it all.

One question. Is there any change on the drawing board re the 15 yr age limit for using crab pots.

I find this one a little hard to fathom, as other fishing regs don't exclude kids. except for a bait net, but that says they may be 'supervised' by someone older than 15.

My mates kids wander the upper reaches of the creeks over the school holidays setting and checking their pots, (1 each, carried on the handle bars of their pushy ;D).

They get a couple too :D

He, and I don't see them as breaking the law, but the law does.

Same as my kids in the boat, no go for crab pots.

[webby]

Hi Dicko Yes in regards to your question, 15years is to be abolished.
regards

[Needmorerum]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I still don't agree with your Name and Address having to be on the float. I will always take the gamble, and I will never put my address on a float. Before you remind me, I know this is illegal.
There are too many fruit cakes and whacko's in this world now for my liking.
I have my name, and mobile number on mine. If someone has a problem, they can ring me, but I won't have anyone coming around to my house and fronting my wife or kids for something I may do, or for something that they may not like.
I do know of one case of a bloke that I work with, did the right thing, put his name and address on his float, and a Pro Crabber rocked up to his house and tore strips off his wife for him putting his pots in the area that the Pro has been using for years. Apparently, it was supposed to be local knowledge that this area was for this one bloke and him only. After the wife told him to take a hike, and he doesn't own the water, he put a brick through the front window of the house and scared the sh!t out of his kids. The Pro took off, and due to the comotion and how scared the wife was, she couldn't remember what car he was driving, or a decent enough description for the cops to track him down. So no one has his address.
I refuse to take this chance with my family.

My two bobs worth.

Corry

PS. Since this, we have staked out the area, and put 'bait' pots to try and lure him out again. Found that there are a couple of pro's that use the area. I even took digital photo's of those we could get close enough to, to try and have him identified with no luck. Should see the look on a Pro's face when it is someone else racing up to the side of his boat, ripping out a camera, and taking a shot of him.

[Mad_Barry]

Good stuff Webby ;D