Redland Shire reduces Boating Facilities

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I still need to check all the facts #- so I need some local help to verify if I have this correct. # #However it seems that:

Redland Shire Council has recently announced well advanced plans to re design the Weinam Creek boat ramp and parking area.

In this plan the number of car+trailer parking spaces is reduced from 72 #to “ about 57” (21%) while increasing general parking spaces.


The public announcement of this was on 24 December.

Public comment is open only until 14 January.

Council Offices are closed from December 25 to January 4. # That leaves only 9 working days for public comment.

The documents from the Council web site already state that “construction will commence in late February 2005” #

All the information I have confirmed is at http://203.18.196.55/have_your_say.cfm # Download the 2 PDF’s.

That’s the facts I have. # Comments in my next post

PS # I cannot find the data but I recall that boat ownership is growing in Qld at 6% pa - # double the population growth.

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Assuming all the above is correct ...

I am really concerned about this. Apparently this Council - or perhaps the Council Management are running to their own agenda. Again we see Public Servants making a mockery of democracy.

The Redlands Shire Council has released for public comment changes to the car park area saying that the car/trailer spaces will be reduced from 72 to about 57. ( 21% reduction) Why don’t they know the exact number? They have plans all drawn up - quotes done and everything ready to go in February - so they must know the exact number. Do they have something to hide?


The release was on the 24 December and comments close on 14 January. That’s clearly planned to limit public consultation. Council closed on 24 Dec to open next Tuesday.


To get them to change the plans that are already in place, will take some serious submissions. But they are only effectively allowing 9 working days. I bet the same public servants would refuse to get a major meaningful submission done in nine weeks let alone 9 days!

That’s why I conclude that their timing is clearly calculated to limit any chance of public comment having any meaningful effect. So much for Democracy!

I keep seeing “Public Comment” as a fake effort. This may well be another example

The Ocean and bay is for everyone. Not just Shire Residents. State Government builds ramps and hands them over to Councils. So Shire Councils hold them in Trust for all of us. So they must therefore consider the needs and comments of all of the public not just residents of the Shire.

We have enough problems with insufficient boat ramps and parking spaces with the boat registration now about 187,000 and increasing.

Issue 1. Why only “ about 57” given the detailed plans why can thy not tell us “exactly x?” Sounds like they are hiding something worse or poor management to me. In any case how can they justify a reduction of 21% when boating is increasing by 6% p.a.?

Issue 2 Why have they put this out for public comment at a time when people are away? They must have known for months that this was planned.


So, what can or should we do about this?

[webby]

Garry that should make you a funeral director, your always the bearer of bad new ;D
I no the member for Redlands, a phone call is in order i think
regards

[skippa]

Drove past the launching ramp today. Boat trailers parked out in the street. 12 of them. This is due to the fact that 'boat trailer' spaces are inundated with cars parked in them. In all the time I've lived in the area I have never seen the council police this area. That is, to keep cars out of trailer spaces so boaties don't have to park in the street or on the grass, where they themselves run the risk of being booked.

I agree, the Weiman car park needs redesigning, badly so its FAIR for ALL to use.

The timing of the announcement is typical of the RSC, but I doubt works will commence in Feb. The completion of the Ferry terminal was almost a year over the planned completion date.

Sounds like another Wello Point exercise, with little regard for RESIDENT (IE RATE PAYERS) boaties. Clearly the RSC and state gov has little understanding of the modern boaties needs. Just take alook at the 'new' ramp at Toondah Harbour.

Brian, I'll be making a call too

Cheers,
Tony >:(
PS Gary, the only info I have is from the local paper, but I will follow up with our local member.

[baldyhead]

This sounds a bit like what was happening in Cairns at the Marlin Marina boat ramp a few years ago. The tourists took over our parking bays that were clearly marked cars with trailers attached only. I phoned the council regulated parking during business hours and the police after hours and literally drove them mad with complaints after I was booked for parking illegally mid week because of the 2 tourist cars to a bay for the entire parking area and my car with trailer attached was the ONLY ONE SPORTING A PARKING TICKET.
You would rarely see a parking ticket on a hire car or any car with foreign number plates period.
Then one day it was announced that the boat ramp was to be moved to a location far away from the entrance to the inlet and that we would have to travel approx 4.5 extra km with approx 2.5km @ 4 knots of pace. Not to mention the bloody sandflies we inherited.
SO the tourists and the greedy money hungry developers and operators won again.
Sounds all too familar guys.
baldy

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I guess what we aught to be asking for immediately is:

1. An extension of time for submissions
2. The advertising of submissions to be repeated
3. Full and honest disclosure - how many car+Trailer spots will be lost


Then

1. Intervention by the Transport Minister. They spend $ millions on Boat Ramps - just to have this Council reduce their usefulness by 21%. That’s got to stop.

2. Redlands Shire Council to change their mind.



Look at the documents on the web site - they clearly state the job will be done in Late February. So it is clearly a done deal before public comment.


I think we need to treat this as a line in the sand. They have gone too far and its time they and every other civil servant gets reminded what a democracy is. Apologies to many in the PS but not to certain ones.

This is our own local GBRMPA problem all over again. Stand up now or keep losing again and again.

[bignick]

It all comes down to the fact that, in their eyes, the Council gets no money (direct cash) from boaties. However, as we all know, nothing could be further from the truth. Boaties traditionally spend their money locally in the form of fuel, bait, ice, drinks, etc. This money goes into the local economy (community) and gets recirculated there in the form of wages to people who work at the outlets that boaties buy their stuff from. Those people then, in turn, spend that money at the local shops to fund their own lives, and so the cycle goes on. But, unfortunately, Councils don't seem to recognise any economic benifit unless it involves them receiving some sort of monetary injection. Such a decision will only impact on other local facilities in the form of further congestion at other ramps, which are already often stretched to the limit. This could, in turn, lead to some boaties giving it away out of sheer frustration. One must also consider which (if any) other interested parties would stand to benefit from such a decision and what (if any) relationship they may or may not have with Council or any of its members or associated groups.

Cheers,
NICK.

[Jew_Chaser]

One must also consider which (if any) other interested parties would stand to benefit from such a decision and what (if any) relationship they may or may not have with Council or any of its members or associated groups.

Cheers,
NICK.


It is my understanding that "secure parking" is to be increased.
Isn't this revenue raising - don't people have to pay council for the use of secure parking?

Jeff

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I wish you were right Nick

But its not that logical IMHO.

I think it comes down to a feminine agenda where fishing and hunting is not respected and nature must be left untouched - or admired in silence.

When I did some consulting work years ago and met RSC management there was strong feminist/ Greenie #agenda by the mostly female senior staff. #

There was also an attitude that they ran the place and residents were a "problem". # #There were 2 types of problem. # One was the long standing residents who wanted progress and one was the new money type who wanted no tourism and the quiet preserved. # # I am paraphrasing my briefing by management but the core issues seem to remain unchanged.

Gary

[Nugget]

It would appear, based on the evidence so far, that this is the epitome of Council arrogance towards boaties.
Why would they issue a plan for public comment when the majority of the public are on holidays?
And to top it off - while the Council is closed!
I can see no other reason than a deliberate attempt to get it through the formalities of public comment with as little fuss as possible.

The Council’s web site doesn’t call this a “draft plan” in fact they state a time when work will commence.

It may be that they have done the research and their plan is the correct one but the way they are going about its implementation is sneaky – no dishonest.

I brought it up twice on 4BC this morning and will follow it through on next weekend’s Show.

Dave ><>

[NQCairns]

ICAC!

[Nugget]

ICAC!

Unfortunately not - ICAC - the Independent Commission Against Corruption can only examine conduct involving NSW public officials.
http://www.icac.nsw.gov.au/

Dave ><>

[redspeckle]

I herad this on the radio this morining on way to work what Nugget said about reduceing the number of car boat trailer spaces from 72 to 57, it make me wild with Redland Shire Counicl #a while ago didn't try same thing with Wello Point boat ramp car park.
The thing the Redland Shire Counicl doesn't relaise every time they approve more New Housing Estates there going to be so many of them are boat owners be living their thats why people want to live in Redlands so they can be close to the bay that is the attraction, which will add more pressure at the boat ramps & its car boat trailer spaces thorugh out the Redland Shire.
"WAKE UP REDLAND SHIRE COUNICL WE SHOULD BE NOT REDUCING THE CAR BOAT TRAILER SPACES SHOULD BE INCREASING THEM " & THINGING ABOUT THE FUTURE OF BOATING FACILITIES TO IMPROVE THEM #

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Well How about a public meeting next Sunday afternoon at 3pm?

That will give time for publicity.

Can anyone help with a Venue - perhaps at the VMR?

Is there a small group willing to start up a branch of The Fishing Party Qld in Redlands to give substance organization and framework to this?

I can help with background administration etc Maybe getting media attention. Maybe in writing to Council and asking the Mayor to be there.

But it will need locals to put their hands up as leaders.


Its time to take a stance in Redlands.


.... your thoughts?

[redspeckle]

Count me in on the one i be there

[NQCairns]

Whoops dont live in NSW any more.. who in QLD?

[Craftsman]

I've just come from Vic Pt and Redland Bay and there were cars parked absolutely everywhere. So my line of thinking is that they're getting more parking complaints from non-boaties, thus squeaky wheel gets the oil and boat owners get the shaft.

Is anyone here a major property developer or head of a big real estate company? They're the only people the RSC listen to. So unless LJ Hooker is a boat owner in the Redland's your complaints will fall on deaf ears.

[skippa]

G'Day Gary,

So in your past experience with the RSC, who is ACTUALLY RUNNING THIS COUNCIL?. and making the decisions.

It makes me laugh when you think of the shire slogan, goes something like this from memory. Bables on about More for the people as a connection to the More in Moreton Bay. It draws a parallel about living by the Bay.

Yet the only thing they seem to be doing is closing down boat parking spaces, in a shire that has one of the highest boating population on eastern seaboard.

One could almost assume that they (RSC) have been shafting the Bay Island residents for so long now, that it's payback time as most cars parked in the trailer spaces are only there because of the Ferries to the Islands. Like there (the cars) are certainly not at Raby Bay ramp are they.

I'm with you Nick, unless you have a fist full of dollars the RSC couldn't give a sh!t about you.

I'm still going to my local member, no use complaining and doing nothing.

Cheers,
Tony

[webby]

Here's a copy of the planned recontruction of the ramp area, and contacts.
as you can see for those that use this ramp, with the opening of the new ferry terminal, they are also, turning the old area of the trailer park into regular car parks for the terminal.
This is to try and do away with all the backyard carparks, where people living on the island usually park.
Hopefully they'll leave the poontoon on the creek near trailer park two, which will make like easier.
regards

[PinHead]

"I am really concerned about this. Apparently this Council - or perhaps the Council Management are running to their own agenda. Again we see Public Servants making a mockery of democracy. "

Gary..isn't it amazing that when people get hot under the collar that all rationale deserts them. Councils do run to their own agenda..that is what they are there for. Where have public servants made a mockery of democracy? Govts of all levels are elected..that is democracy..after that they do what they see fit to do..they do not have to listen to the public..they stand at the end of their term for re-election..then they may be re-elected or not...that is democracy..asking for an opinion during their term has absolutely nothing to do with democracy.

You now want to start a Redlands chapter of TFP..wasn't the Redlands area deserving of a chapter until now? This is where TFP is doomed..as soon as they see something to fight over they want to start a chapter in that area..I would be trying to get chapters everywhere..have the infrastructure in place to then make valid submissions to councils..without hot headed incorrect information.

[kc]

That's a bit harsh. Public consulation during a term of council or government is a cornerstone of the democratic process. The fact that they ignore the input does not remove the genuine principle this exists for.

As to why does TFPQ now want to start a Redlands chapter....this is not a sudden thing by any means Pinhead and you know that. We have called since before and now many times after the election for any interested individuals or groups to get in touch if they want to start a chapter. I have even offered to fly down and attend formation meetings, which I have for the Brisbane North branch.

Just as RAP was the catalyst for the formation of the party in NQ, it takes an issue of some kind to get fishos involved....the old NIMBY approach will always dictate that it is easier to sit on the fence throwing hand grenades than actually get involved. When it starts to effect YOU personally however, that's a whole different ball game.

Recreational fishers are going to be placed under increasing pressure in relation to access and increasingly restrictive rules and regulations, ultimately resulting in the de-popularising the sport.

Wether this is the intent or mearly the consequence I honestly don't know but it is, none the less, a fact. Make it harder, more complicated and less enjoyable...and people just give up.

If the rec fishos of Redlands shire want to get involved in fighting back, fine, they are welcome and we are happy to help. If they don't...no problems!

Don't however trot out some line that we are only interested in forming branches in hot spots. Not true & you know it.

Regards

KC

[Jay_S]

pinhead say's

You now want to start a Redlands chapter of TFP..wasn't the Redlands area deserving of a chapter until now? This is where TFP is doomed

Pinhead......what's your answer to taking some sort of stand for the reco angler?

Would be good to see some positive feedback from you.

At least we are making an effort...... better then bending over!

Col (Jay's dad)


(Proud member of the Fishing Party) :D

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I think KC said it all.

Democratic Governments are NOT elected to have a free reign during their term. Where did you get an idea like that? They are subject to public scrutiny - like question time in parliament, public accounts, media attention, Senate enquiries etc etc.

In any case it’s hypocritical to have "Public consultation" then close the doors.


Having A TFPQ branch would give some structure and organization. It also seems to have a more powerful effect on politicians than say a group calling itself "Boaties of Redland".

And if you recall the posts on this site - KC did call for anyone interested in forming a branch some months ago. That offer is open at any time.

In North Qld so many fishers sat on the fence saying" they will never do that" well they did it and many have given up fishing. Tackle shops are closing and Boat yards are selling nothing (according to two Qld manufacturers I interviewed).

And yes - it takes an issue to get people moving - nothing new there. If we do nothing then we will all miss out. A little here ... a little there ... until fishing goes the way of hunting and smoking. ( I am not saying I agree with either – I am just pointing out the tactics and strategies that were effectively used)

Just think of tactics and look what the opposition is doing: IF I were anti fishing I would not just jump out and try to ban it. No - I would slowly rust away little bits at a time until I killed it off. Well that’s exactly what they are doing!

Thanks Webby for posting that - that was on the web site I referred people to.


Can anyone tell me exactly how wide is the ramp? How many car widths? I forgot to measure for sure.

Anyone nearby who can run a tape over it?

Thanks

Gary

0412 111 573

[PinHead]

Col..I see you are a member of TFP..are you really a member or just paid the membership fees and sit back and let the others do the work. How many meetings have you attended? Have you volunteered to start a branch in the Redlands? Have you volunteered to take part in the Management Committee of your local branch? If the answer is no for the above then I am afraid that you are not really a "member". For TFP to be successful, people have to get out and form branches, be proactive in the community and not always reactive. KC and Gary have my respect because they are "doers" not watchers whereas in most organisations the watchers far outnumber the "doers". So put your hand up...volunteer for the committee for the Redlands branch..but don't label others until you are doing something yourself. As for me bending over...that is your opinion..you are entitled to that..i won't be joining TFP for reasons of my own but when I decide to rally for a cause I usually manage to get results. I have proven that over many years as being President and committee member on several sporting clubs and also a boat club.

[Fisher_Boats]

Hey Pinhead,
How you going? I am active as much as I can be. We formed the North Brisbane branch here at Bribie,have attended every meeting we have had and will be flying up to Airlie in January for the agm.
My main purpose is to make people aware of the fishing party, get members in and support Kevin and Gary as much as possible.
As far as sitting back that's your assumption and it's not correct old mate.
My life evolves around the water and so do my families lives so I'll do what ever I can to help the reco angler.
What's your reason for not getting behind it and getting the results that your capable of?
We mightn't be politicans that's for sure but why does that really matter??
Col

Col

[cooky]

are you really a member or just paid the membership fees and sit back and let the others do the work

So if I gave $100,000 to the TFP and didn't have the time to get involved - would I still be questioned as to my 'membership' status?

(i don't have $100,000 to give, but I think financial members of any organisation are very important - as are people 'who do the work')

[gif]

I asked the Council “ when did you place the public notices”

It seems that they gave some notice to the ferry passengers (who now get more parking) but nothing at all for Boaties who lose 21% or more of spaces.

Signs went up a full week before they put a notice in the newspaper. And Signs and web site changes must have been built planned and approved some days or weeks before they were installed.

Their response is below.

I am now more convinced that they deliberately avoided telling us - and were hoping to sneak through the changes.

Gary


Dear Mr Fooks

The information on the carpark was publicly available on 17 December 2004.

Council installed signage at Weinam Creek and the four island jetties and placed flyers at the ticket office on 17 December 2004. It was written on the signage that feedback would be accepted until 14 January 2005. It was also written on the flyers that feedback would be accepted until 14 January 2005.

The information was also available on Council's website on 17 December 2004 and it was published on the website that feedback would be accepted until 14 January 2005.

A notice was published in the local paper, The Redland Times on 24 December 2004 which also advised that feedback would be accepted until 14 January 2005.

If you require any further information please don't hesitate to contact me on 3829 8968 or via return email.

Regards
Michelle Harvey

[PinHead]

So if I gave $100,000 to the TFP and didn't have the time to get involved - would I still be questioned as to my 'membership' status?

(i don't have $100,000 to give, but I think financial members of any organisation are very important - as are people 'who do the work')

sorry cooky..but yeah...regardless of how much money is sent in, unless some people have a committee formed to use it wisely then it is useless. Money does not make an organisation...people do.

[cooky]

i think you need both. And being an ACTIVE member of different organisations myself over the years including Rotary I believe you need both to make a real difference.

Some people would love to get involved in an organisation or issue but genuinely don't have the time (often the people with the money). These are often the people who think strategically, have the 'contacts', and give advice without being on a committee. I would value their input as much as a real 'worker bee' who does the sausage sizzle, sells raffle tickets, turns up to meetings.

you have to look at the big picture.
It's like saying "Management are lazy, all they do is have lunch, have meetings, play golf, travel..... they should WORK like the rest of us"

[cooky]

As for Councils pushing their own agenda. I have been dealing with the council a lot more this year and believe me - they will push through what they want while covering their butts elegantly. If the councillors are stronger in a certain party like ours (labour), and if said labour councillor wants something put through - the other members will often vote affirmative. Once this has happened it will VERY RARELY be changed - the process is too far down the track.
The general public aren't aware because of the PR used "we did this for the benefit of XYZ".

Often situations like this in relation to timing are just an example of poor planning by people thinking about their holidays rather than their job. I have an example at present - a tender released by State Gov Dep 20th Dec, due 10th January (I'm reading the 50 odd pages of it now). The many questions we had couldn't be answered until today as they closed over christmas (leaving 4 working days to put together offer). Idiots!!

I've got a couple of other examples happening right now too. "can I speak to XYZ please"
"no XYZ is on holidays at present"
"can anyone else help me, this is urgent"
"no, XYZ is the best person to speak to, sorry"
"ARRGGGHHHH"

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Airial Photo

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Currently there are 111 spaces

The Transport Guidelines for a class A: 4 lane ramp like this is a minumum of 90 spaces.

They are reducing it to "about 56" # #- thats a reduction of 51% #!

Thay are taking away more than half!

Apparently they can start building in February because

1. #The #tenders went out in early October
2. #The Council approved the winners - Abigroup #- on 17 December

... #yet there was no forum for public comment in public notices until Christmas Eve #24 Dec. #Council was closed from then until today.

So teh whole lot is sewn up - tenders approved before they call for public comment!

Do something #...# get your mates involved #or lose this #and many more like it.

So - Public meeting Sunday Afternoon - how many can you get to attend? How about a venue?

Gary

[mr_phishy]

Fooks et al..

Just to add to the discussion, Toondah Harbour is a good example of a boat ramp disaster. The council changed the location to the southern side of the barges and created a nice easy to use car park but the ramp is "completely useless" if the tide is not more than half way in!

I had to retrieve my 4.5m tinny from the mud the very last time i used it.. >:(

Also worth noting that the straddie flyer operation including their infrastructure, busses and terminal was put in the middle of a public car park many years ago..maybe their was a council person with a vested interest?? Nowhere in Australia can you start operating a private business from a public carpark (to my knowledge anyway).

Good luck, that is/was a great facility at Reddie Bay

Mick

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Listen iN on 4BC this weekend Talking Fishing 5 - 6 am 1116 am Sat ( and Sunday)
For more about this issue and to have your say

[gif]

UPDATED


I have done some more research.

As early as 26 May 2003 Council held a workshop to discuss parking issues. That had already approved the development of the New Ferry Terminal.

In the Documents they seem to know that more parking is required for the Ferry Passengers.

Certainly they know this by 17 September 2003 !

The winners are those who will lease car parking spaces in the new secure parking - for wait for it $12 per week! ( so it was planned)

Yet at this stage there is nothing written that I can see that says Trailer parking will be reduced.

They do talk about separating trailer parking from Passengers “ as a safety issue”

Seems like boaties are to be victims of a Ferry Terminal and a plan that was hatched in 2003 or earlier.

Either they knew all about it then - or they are hopeless planners.


That is exactly why we need to make a large stink now. Why? there are no doubt other plans being made somewhere which we will not see for 2 years. If the planners see Boaties putting up a stink over this ramp then they will think over there current plans again Eg they may cost in a multi level car park in the first place for the passengers.

This is how sneaky the system is. So we need to be loud now - and see the fruits in 2 years.

[PinHead]

"Yet at this stage there is nothing written that I can see that says Trailer parking will be reduced."
So, if trailer parking is not to be reduced then you would feel like a bit of a dill if you have sent any correspondence complaining about a reduction in same.
An extra week is now available for comments.

[gif]

Pinhead

An extra week for comments? # thanks # - can you refer me to that?

Certainly there is a reduction To about 56 #Car Trailer places #" # but that does not appear in the written documents until December 2004. # #I have that in writing as posted # - and its on their web site. # As is the marked up plans showing these numbers

What I am saying is that the reduction did not appear ( clearly stated) in the 2003 documents.

The 2003 documents do say that secure parking will need to be increased # - the cut in trailer parks must be between the lines.

[Nugget]

I think you missed the point PinHead.
The parking facilities WILL be reduced - I think Gary is saying there was no mention of the reduction in the original submission.

I've followed this post with little comment, although I have had correspondence with the Council and am partly responsible for bringing the issue to public notice on 4BC.

The issue here is the loss of facilities for boaties.
It’s my belief that everyone should do as much as they can to prevent the whittling away of these facilities.

While his approach may be unconventional, attacking or contrary to a politically correct procedure, Gary’s motive is to stand up for the future of fishing.
There’s an old saying that the Squeaky wheel gets the oil – as far as I can see, Gary, The Fishing Party and all other concerned anglers should squeak as loud and as often as they can.

Dave ><>

[Derek Bullock]

Can I ask if anyone has actually gone to the boat ramp and counted the available parks that are there now ? ? ? ? ? ?


Derek

[Jay_S]

Hey Derek,
Here's your chance to give us a hand mate ;D ;D

Col

[Derek Bullock]

Yeah Col, was thinking of taking a drive for a first hand look on the weekend.

That's if I can find room to park when I get there. #;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Cheers


Derek

[Sportfish_5]

Get there early Derek and you can park in one of the boat trailer parks for the day :-X ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Derek Bullock]

Yeah Sportfish, I have been told that there are plenty of boat trailer parks available for single cars.


Derek

[Nugget]

Derek there are currently 111 public car/trailer spots.
Sat 1st there were 12 boats parked on the road leading to the ramp as there were no parks available.
The proposal is to reduce the current 111 spaces to 57.

Dave ><>

[gif]

The Redland Boat club will be down on the Banana Street Ramps this weekend to encourage people to make submissions

They could do with a hand - just drop down and give them an hour or two or call their president Brett Ashcroft on 0413 249 930.

Duncan at the Fishead Tackle store is also helping out - drop in and give him soem encouragement as well.


Gary

PS It seems there are less than 111 curent spaces - thats what they told Council but it seesm they have allready taken over some for paid parking.

[Duncs]

I went down last night and counted 82 parking spots for boats and trailers. There are 2 spots for disabled parking (boat and trailer) and a further 26 places which are boat and trailer size but are designated as general parking. They are all filled with cars, mostly double parked - Islanders with 2 cars I assume.
Whatever else used to be boat and trailer parking has been fenced off for secure car parking for the islanders.
I have just printed off a heap of the comment sheets from the Redland Shire Council, so if you are down this way, drop in and have your say. Fish Head is located on Stradbroke st, just off Broadwater Tce (the main drag) in Redland bay, facing the park and the pub.

Cheers

Duncan