IMPORTANT !! - Have your say on Qld Finfish

[bugman]

Hello all,

This is the first time in nearly 10 years you have the chance to make submissions into the management practices for the Queensland Finfish fishery. This fishery makes up most of the bread and butter species we catch all up and down the coastline. It applies to both the recreational and commercial fishery.

The DPI&F has prepared an assessment report for the Department of Environment and Heritage.

Members of the puplic have the ability to make submissions on the report but the closing date is Nov 11.

It's fair to say this has been kept out of the public eye to a degree and some members of the committee I'm on have been unhappy at the way this whole report has been handled.

It's a fair size document but if you are serious about the Queensland fishery we all use then got to the website, download it, read it and get a submission in.

I don't think anyone can make a promise it will change things but it's important to get the message from recreational and commercial anglers alike across to those that set the rules.

Even if you don't want to make a submission - the document is a good read for those that want to find out about the fishery.

Brett

Here's the PDF itself

http://www.deh.gov.au/coasts/fisheries/qld/east-coast-finfish/pubs/east-coast-finfish-submission.pdf

Here's the main DEH website of concern:

http://www.deh.gov.au/coasts/fisheries/current.html

Here's the explanation on the submission

http://www.deh.gov.au/coasts/fisheries/qld/east-coast-finfish/submission.html

[mackmauler]

Had a look Brett, sounded like a whole lot of nothing, buggered if I know :-?

[Gazza]

Hi Bugman,
Mate, your a decision-maker.....?
P61..tailor recommendation 30---->40cms.

My food-4-thought.... seems they "may" be smaller ,at an older age i.e. 2yrs.

Two-year-old fish appear to have become smaller over the history of the fishery.
This is assumed to be due to increased fishing pressure combined with non-selectivity
of small one-year-old fish, whereby the one-year-old fish that survive
fishing are small and grow into small two-year-old fish the following year. An
alternative hypothesis is that the stock has undergone a genetic change towards
smaller fish. The true explanation is unknown.
As such (to me) C&R of sub-40cms. is a drastic...over-reaction :-/
32/34/35 is 'incrementally' acceptable(to me) to "ensure" fish-spawning occurred the previous season. :-/

I ask ...get the "science right" 1st.......drastic measures l-a-t-e-r or relaxed ;) e.g. mortality rates of sub-40cms :-/


The analysis finds no evidence that fishing pressure has yet affected recruitment.

JMO ,as per usual ;) ...and thankyou for the heads-up 8-)

[DaveSue_Fishos_Two]

Thanks for the info on this Brett, I will be having a look and a read tonight.

Cheers
Dave

[bugman]

Gazza,

Tailor is a species under the spotlight. Scientists are actually putting forward the thoery that the heavy fishing pressure has actually made the species breed earlier (at a smaller size) in order for it to survive.

It's like a tree - you cut of it's limbs and it sprouts hard because it thinks it's going to die.

Something seriously has to be done about tailor in queensland. If we have one poor recruitment year - ie one bad spawning season - there will literally be no tailor left - IT'S THAT BAD.

Over 60% of tailor caught every year are 1 year old or less. You don't have to be a scientist to work out it's in real danger.

[baldyhead]

What committee is it that you are on Brett and what is its function and outcomes may I ask...cheers baldy

[Sandman]

Havent read it Bret but from what i know and understand and an emperical observation growing up as a son of a genetasist it makes sense for a specieces to do this , however i did not realise that Tailor was so heavly effected ! a species that comes to mind is mullet and why they to have not altered in size!
I shall read the report and certainly consider any imput if any as well get some opinions on it .
michael

[DICER]

It's better to think of it as a bell curve (or a poisson distribution if your also into statistics). Slice off the heaviest producing breeders in one end of the curve and they'll no longer contribute enough towards the total gene pool diversity. The smaller ones have more success and as such the population becomes shifted towards the smaller individuals. These individuals go onto to breed.

If this were the case tailor I think it may be better to have an upper take limit rather than a lower limit (ie. take only individuals from 28 cm to 45 cm). This would allow the larger ones to replenish - if fishing pressure hasn't already fixed us with the smaller tailor.

I haven't read the report yet to make a proper response to the quotes above. If they have tracked a number of fish to determine age and size relationships - the one year/two year phenomena might be serious warning that there is a great selection pressure.

PS. I'm not sure what it means by recruitment - is population size remaining the same?

[bugman]

Baldy,

DPI&F Finfish Management Advisory Committee.

Dicer - recruitment is the term fisheries uses for spawning and or new fish into stock each year.

Brett

[Gazza]

Over 60% of tailor caught every year are 1 year old or less. You don't have to be a scientist to work out it's in real danger.

Thanks Bugman...if the 'science' is there...i support all fish having at least a spawn the previous season ;)

Also, look at the maths....with a size increase (40 is too high imo)

60% more will definitely spawn, as well as the present 20%.....
i.e. 4 times the biomass ,4 times the "fish" ;),or then like a tree that's grown new branches :D ,a critical? mass will be reached.
(Q. how big 'nowadays' is a 2yr.old?)

i.e. suggest a "sunset clause" to 'relax' the minsize to 32/34/35 :-/
.....IF such a finfish management tool exists..... :-X :-?

[bushbeachboy]

At the risk of getting burned, I would like to see a couple of changes to sizes/bag limits. Here are my thoughts:

1. Bream: min size 28cm, daily bag limit (not 'in possession' limit) 10 per angler

2. Whiting: min size ok at 23cm, daily bag limit 20 per angler

3. Doggy Mack: min size ok at 50cm, daily bag limit of 10 per angler. Why have a 30 limit on doggies? Who is going to eat 30 doggies?

At the same time, the rec sector should not accept tighter limits without similar restrictions being placed on the commercial sector. From what I read in those reports the commercial sector appear to be angels, caring for all the little fishies etc. If I have read the reports correctly, over the past 10 or so years, the commercial harvest has increased in tonnage, despite a reduction in the number of licences available, while the rec sector has been severely restricted. This imbalance needs to be addressed.

OK, now er rip boys. I'd like to hear your opinions and I'm happy to be corrected if I've gotten it wrong.
Cheers
Bushbeachboy

[bugman]

Good comments Bushbeachboy,

You'll not glamed flamed at all.

Just one thing. All the the current bag limits are in possession. That's possession at any time. That is unlikely to change for a number of reason likes compliance ease and enforcement.

Brett

[Gazza]

Bushbeachboy, great points mate, just keep in mind bream successfully recruit at a mucher lower minsize than 28cms......

Tailor are still? netted in Qld , but no longer in NSW.... :-?
Bugman is on-the-ball ,and a good rep for fishing.

Maybe out-of-date?? ,but still relevant is this ;)

[straddie]

Heya Gazza

"Tailor are still? netted in Qld , but no longer in NSW"
Are you suggesting we bring in a RFL so the net fishermen can be bought out like they were in NSW? ;D

"Australia’s east coast Tailor stock supports a substantial recreational fishery, with its annual catch currently estimated to be 3–4 times the size of the commercial catch of the same stock (Dichmont et al. 1999). "
http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/far/17795.html

Rec = 75-80% Pro = 20-25%


Heya Dicer

There are actually two different problems with tailor, the number of fish and the growth rate. While it may possibly contribute to the numbers, I think that slot limit would actually accentuate the growth rate problem because you are reducing the minimum further and exposing the fast growing (but still immmature) fish to an even greater chance of being caught before they have a chance to breed.

Raising the size limit would give the faster growing fish the chance to breed once or twice then over time natural selection 'should' then start to allow these fish to dominate.

[Gutsy]

I believe min size for bream should be increased to 25cm much like NSW.

I think most anglers are responsible these days and like the rules for flathead release most large fish such as bream, jacks etc for future generations.

Cheers.

Marcel.

[fishsmith]

I believe we should reduce bag limits and impose more max size limits than increasing minimum sizes.
Increasing mimimum sizes does nothing to protect reproductivley mature fish with good solid genetic profiles.
Maximum size limits are needed to protect and increase the genetic pool and biomass of fish species

[megafish71]

I don't want to burst anybodies bubble here, but anyone considering making a submission to fisheries had better have done thier homework. To be taken seriously by any government department you will have to base your submissions on actual scientific evidence and refer to these documents to put your point forward. If you don't your submission will just be put to one side and nothing in it will be considered. Unfortunately this is the way government departments run. So if your considering putting forward a submission try and find some facts to support your views.

Ron

[webby]

Brett you coming to Townsville on the 9-10oct, we have a Big Crabmac meeting up there for those two day. Dont no wether Finfish was invited ;)
regards

[DICER]

I would have to agree with Ron. Anything that looks like a half baked proposal will come out untouched.

Furthermore to the earlier points about selection. It is the large fish that have survived selection the pressures throughout their life history that are going to contribute significantly to the quantitative traits for body mass. The larger fish have to be protected if there is selection happening, as in tailor.

You could make an assumption that the smaller, but older, tailor are the result of being able to survive selection pressures of not being caught - but this needs to be tested.

[outsiderskip]

hi brett

i would like snapper put in two catagories
5fish up to 2kg 5 over 2kg
outside fisherman release half of their catch in deep
water attracting sharks very few survive


cheers pete

[bugman]

Brian,

We've had our one and only Finfish meeting for the "year of consolidation". No more are planned as far as I know.

I keep trying to ring you but you're always engaged. Getting bloody broadband will you.

Ron's right here but I don't think people should be put off by this.

Just be articulate, make sense and even if you have personal evidence to back it up just state ic cleary and document the evidence you have gained to reach your conculsion.

Brett

[DICER]

Perhaps you also have questions as to where would you like to see more research, considering what they have covered and in what detail?

The deadline to have your submission in, is the 11th November.

(I'm still going through the proposal at 122pgs)

[Gazza]

Brett you coming to Townsville on the 9-10oct, we have a Big Crabmac meeting up there for those two day. Dont no wether Finfish was invited ;)
regards

9~10 Oct?? or nov/dec/jan Webby i.e. your post is 15/10?

Mate, be good to chew a couple of Jennies ,16cms ,Jan ~April ;) :-X

[Gazza]

Heya Gazza

"Tailor are still? netted in Qld , but no longer in NSW"
Are you suggesting we bring in a RFL so the net fishermen can be bought out like they were in NSW? ;D

"Australia’s east coast Tailor stock supports a substantial recreational fishery, with its annual catch currently estimated to be 3–4 times the size of the commercial catch of the same stock (Dichmont et al. 1999). "
http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/far/17795.html

Rec = 75-80% Pro = 20-25%
Don't wind me up Straddie!! ;D ;D :D

If your suggesting , by RFL monies purchasing this "stock" , our baglimits go up..... :o

AND....,as we also "purchased the selling rights of 25%".. we can SELL THEM!!!...woohoo
bring-it-on 8-) ;D

[straddie]

Gazza, I saw your chin sticking out and just couldn't resist ;D

[Gazza]

Gazza, I saw your chin sticking out and just couldn't resist ;D
I gave meself a couple of uppercuts..just in case :D [smiley=smug.gif]

[dasher]

I don't want to burst anybodies bubble here, but anyone considering making a submission to fisheries had better have done thier homework. To be taken seriously by any government department you will have to base your submissions on actual scientific evidence and refer to these documents to put your point forward. If you don't your submission will just be put to one side and nothing in it will be considered. Unfortunately this is the way government departments run. So if your considering putting forward a submission try and find some facts to support your views.

Ron

Ron, not so mate, start your submission "because of lack of research and proven scientific evidence on behalf of the gov., I have submitted the following based on physical evidence and knowledge based on my and other recreational fishermen..............

[Daintreeboy]

Some good points lads but how about this.
With the 27 days of closures of the best Coral Reef Finfishing we can possibly have, including weather conditions, the fisheries IMO have done nothing to take into account the impact that will have on non Coral reef fin fish.
Take for example my favourite fish, the Fingermark. At ten per person it is already a silly number, 5 is more than enough but moving away from the evidence which apparently 25 years fishing plus doesn't cut it, don't you reckon the extra pressure on the non 'fin fish', some which have been less regulated will be nothing short of brutal?
Personally while I have a few ideas and opinions about the Coral reef Fin fish regs, I'm just as concerned about some pretty sucseptible species that aren't as closely looked at............but what would I know, no evidence eh?
Cheers, Mark.

[kc]

Mark & Ron are both flirting with the big issue here.......research & facts.

Thankfully we can access a fair bit of information about (some) coral reef finfish and form opinions based on facts....this does not mean by any means that DPI have got the 3 * 10 day closures right. Evidence exists to the contrary.

Before we consider or recomend what we "feel" is the right level of bag/size limts for inshore finfish.....and this is widely varying. What are the facts. Take Marks babies...fingermark. I have seen some evidence on the age of spanish flag but not on fingermark. Are they slow growing or fast growing. What is their level of spawning recruitment and what issues effect spawning recruitment. At what age/size do they spawn? What is the approx total biomass and at what % level is this biomass harveted...ie IS IT SUSTAINABLE???

If the biomass was (pulling a figure from mid air) 100 tonnes and the "harvest" was 5 tonnes ie 5% and the science says this species can be harvested at 20%.....no problem....no changes needed. If the biomass was 10 tonnes and the harvest 5 tonnes then BIG PROBLEM and reduce "take" down to 2 tonne...reduce bag limit from 10 to 4 and reduce commercial take accordingly.

If we just guess at recommendations because it "seems about right" we do ourselves, the fishery and our own credibility a great disservice.

What is the population status of whiting/bream/ludrick? Is current fishing pressure unsustainable? Are bag limits and changes required to protect a species suffering unsustainable pressure or are they just making sure no individual catches more than society thinks is his/her "fair share"?

If we set a bag limit of say 20 whiting....will it "put off" the guy who likes to take his family to Frazer for a week once a year and bring home 6 months supply of fillets as oppossed to someone retired who goes fishing every other day and can catch 20 every time he goes.

Before anyone starts making recommendation to the finfish review ask first , what is the purpose of the regulation? If it is to protect a stock which needs protection because the fishing pressure is beyond the level at which the remaining breeding biomass can recruit each year then the bag limits and restrictions are not only warrented but welcome (a la barra closed season and bag/size limits ands flathead upper limit). If however they are just the governments way of telling people that they can no longer participate in the fishery the way they enjoy....then what are they up to?
Likewise are there plans for complimentary reductions in commercial netting or reduced (or even any) catch quotas planned?

This is a big issue and one which is just playing into the hands of fisheries managers as they "reallocate" the "resource" from recreational to commercial.

TFPQ has just finished its submission and presentation to the GBRMPA review board.

If members would like us to work on a finfish submission please start posting any details or suggestions on our web page www.fishingparty.com.au and we will get to work.
While as an organisation we had experience with GBR issues and access to all available research we are very short on experience on inshore finfish so need some help if we are to make a meaningful and professional submission.


Regards

KC

[dasher]

Now we can see genuine concerns posted to the TFPQ website and hopefully instead of disappearing on a forum it may be used in a combined effort of concerned fishos. You don't have to be a member (although that would be good) to express your opinion. Have your say now or take up golf or bowls. ;)

[turkey_beach_boy]

thats the world we live in ;D

[fishr]

yep i agree

[fishr]

wat r scrubbies

[fishr]

does any1 know

[fishr]

bream r da best fish

[fishr]

wats ur fav fish

[fishr]

y do carp attak nethin

[fishr]

y am i talkin 2 ppl i dont kno

[fishr]

i continue 2 do it

[fishr]

y

[bugman]

hhhhhmmmm - Looks like someone may need to be investigated here

[Black_Rat]

Yellow card him for spam # ;D ;D ;D

[turkey_beach_boy]

thats one way of getin your posts up ;D ;D

[scrub1975]

Those netting bastards should be shot! Leave the tailor alone

[Hapuka]

While we are on the subject of netting what about the longliners coming to the close bait grounds and net up to 3000 slimies or yakkas and absolutely destroy the bait schools and when they do this they "accidently" net our mackeral and sell them for pet food#. This is a classic example of the double dip , they steal all our bait wrecking our fishing in close then they go out wide and smash all the tuna and by catch the billies.

They constantly take from natural resources and don't replace a thing...at least the sand miners have to replenish the Sand Dunes once they have torn apart the landscape..if the longliners want free bait (as they used to have to buy it) they should give back in some way whether it's fish stocks in a dam or put back into a hatchery or put some funds into fish management.

What other buisness do you get your supplies for free ?

Rob # #

[Daintreeboy]

Who would they buy it from, someone else that goes out and gets the same amount?

[al_neibling]

what ever your talking about Iwould like to get my posts up TOOOO what is with the 10 rule?and what happen to live chat???? I cannot find it, it used to be here about 3 months ago????

[Work_Bench]

The long liners used to use squid as bait which can be bought in bulk anywhere , this has surely got to be
better than them stealing all the bait from our bait grounds. #