why not "P" plates???

[thumps]

after reading all the lastest "GOSS"...and the talk about ppl drowing, and loonies(in my opinion) riding pwc to Fiji

can anyone give me a good reason:

WHY when you recieve a license to operate watercraft...there isnt a "P" plate period the same as for motor vehicles???


it seems you have to serve an apprentiship to drive a motor vehicle...but sit a test...do a quick spin in protected waters...and you are free to operate high powered..and dangerous water vessels without restriction straight away.

[thumps]

oh...and before you ask......


"P" platers couldnt operate outside of smooth waters till their apprentiship is up and display a large P on their vessel


just an idea....

[joeT]

Sounds like a good idea, and makes a lot of sense.

But personally, I've always been against any further regulation of anything, we have enough government restriction/intervention already. We don't really want more reasons for them to pull us over and give us tickets. Everytime we introduce a new law/licence, it just further imposes upon our freedoms. People need to take responsibility for their own actions, apply some common sense, as we can't protect everyone from themselves. Remember in a lot of places you still don't need a licence to operate a boat.

I heard once someone suggest that people should have licences to ride bicycles, so that the kids will know the road rules etc. Sounds like a good idea, but how far should we go?

Perhaps more education, readily available seminars for new boaties, subsidised on the water training, more funding to VMR, and greater public awareness is more the solution than imposing limits and restrictions.

[PinHead]

Provisional licenses for cars place no restrictions whatsoever on what car you can drive..where you can drive it or anything else...just gives you less points...then when they accumulate 4 points they can get 1 point for 12 months so they do not lose their license anyway..same as for drink driving....first offence you usually can get a work license...drive between 6am and 6 pm..complete joke really. The penalties are not a deterrent for motorists and would not have an effect on boaties either. Even the motorbike provisional licenses are stupid. Jump on an Aprilia 250cc bike which is based on their GP bike and see how quick it travels...it is a missile.

The thought may be good but the practicalities are not there.

Have a look at the road deaths this holiday season..absolutely horrific..40 dead already...no amount of penalties and restrictions will protect those that do not want to learn and use that information for their own benefit.

[imported_admin]

The problem is no matter what laws you bring in or no matter how big you make the fines you can not protect people from themselves.

[theoldlegend]

Seemed like a good idea when I first read it, especially the bit about smooth waters, but as others have said, it could mean more regulation and other stuff for the authorities to police.

I don't own a boat and therefore don't have a licence, but if I got one, it would be a long, long time before I would attempt any sort of a bar crossing. Guess it comes down to experience on the water.

As we've seen last week, there's already been a tragedy on the bay plus a near tragedy as well as a guy having to be rescued from an island in the southern part of the bay.

It's probably like driving a car- it's the person behind the wheel.

TOL

[Lucky_Phill]

Sounds like a great idea, at first, but, in reality, the responses so far are right.

The road toll so far is horrific, considering that ( I believe ) 99% of these could have been avoided.

So what do we do about the "p" plate situation ? I don't know. There is one aspect of all this that I have encouraged in my kids and others, for that matter, Driver Education.

It does appear like in a kids cartoon I saw many ( too many ) years ago, and some here will remember it. It was a Disney Cartoon and Goofy was the star. The story revolved around the ' nice as pie" Goofy, until he got behind the wheel of a car. He grew horns and became a " madman " ( or should that be mad dog ? ). He became a different person. That, people , is exactly what happens to many of our younger folk ( and I'll throw in a couple of the older generation here ).

Give them a weapon and they will endeavour to test that weapon to the extreme, with the results, often fatal.

As Steve elluded to, you cannot pretect people from themselves. Maybe we can try, though.

Good post Thumps !

Cheers Phill

[webby]

P plates , L plates whats next, we come up with all these brainwave idea's, but no body mentions how your going to enforce this, the road yes, but on the water you have one and buckleys.
So where are all the extra water police going to come from, we just wave the magic wand and they appear, i think not.
If they made getting a bloody licence a lot harder we could possiblie weed out some of the lunies that get behind the wheel of a boat or j-ski.
regards Fm Tassie

[Nugget]

Along the same lines, ABT Angler of the Year Gavin Dunn raised the issue of roadworthies for boats on 4BC's Talking Fishing Sat morning.
He said he sees plenty of boat on the water that should not be allowed - unsafe.
Should boats have a "waterworthy" check before registration?
Perhaps an annual check?

I have my own opinions, but would be interested to read yours.

Dave ><>

[Derek_Bullock]

Drivers in NSW have P Plate restrictions such as reduced speeds but it still hasnt reduced the road carnage.

As has been said, people need to be responsible for themselves as well as their passengers.


Derek

[Gazza]

silly idea thumps ;D

Nugget, can see some merit with regards to a survey minimum standard to go outside FOR the boat & as is already the case , a higher level of safety equipment.

not meant to stop the tinnie ,on a real good day....maybe limit "how far" outside though :-?

p.s. just the 'once' for the boat ;) ,don't want to start any blood-sucking-money-making schemes ;D :D :D :D

[Derek_Bullock]

Along the same lines, ABT Angler of the Year Gavin Dunn raised the issue of roadworthies for boats on 4BC's Talking Fishing Sat morning.
He said he sees plenty of boat on the water that should not be allowed - unsafe.
Should boats have a "waterworthy" check before registration?
Perhaps an annual check?

I have my own opinions, but would be interested to read yours.

Dave ><>

Due to the portability of safety gear this wouldnt work. All it would do is check that the hull and motor and trailer were in a good condition at the time. Smart or stupid people could turn up with their mates safety gear, get everything checked out and then give it back and go out without any.

Cheers


Derek

[westie]

Lets just wait and see what happens this year regarding the NEW Regulations that come into affect on Jan1.

You can have all the rules you like, but in most cases if common was used and respect for other users ROAD/WATER Etc.

Electronics have not been considered as speed control. is it possible to have two lanyards switches fitted to a Ski to restrict speed in smooth water (40Kmh), then in open water swap it to the other switch, meaning you have to remove it from 1 to the other that way there is no OH must have bumped it. Then it comes under the heading " INTENT" you intended to go above the speed permitted for that area.

These things are going to continue to operate on our waters, we need to control the main issues and the main one is SPEED, noise is being addressed via 4 stroke motors.

If we can bring then back to speeds of simular to 90% of boat users they, 1) may learn to respect each other. 2) may end up with two types of riders Hoons, forced to look for open water and the ones willing to abide and operate at a respectable manner among other users in restricted waters.

Oh it would be good if things were this simple, it may not fit all the problem but it could be a start, along with the new Transport Regs, then WHO is going to Police them, Police,Councils,Inspectors we only have a small No of water Police to control our water ways and in my option should be the Police as we don't need any more PRETEND Police out there.

Well that is my 1 cents worth.

[bidkev]

Dave, They have an annual roadworthy (MOT) for vehicles in the UK. Yes, in some ways it's a good thing, but in reality it's just another revenue raising exercise for the Gov't and more business for the garages granted the licence to do the tests.

They'll fail you at the drop of a hat just to get the business to put the "failure" right. All the criteria for the tests are sailed through and then, when they've found nothing, they pull out a screwdriver and start poking at the underbelly. Admitted, if the screwdriver sinks into the chassis then that's good cause for a failure but 99% of the failures are when they give the good old sills a real banging and drive up the repair bill higher that it otherwise would have been. Imagine the buggers trying to sink a screwdriver into the hull or transom of a glass boat?

It could be argued that this is good reason *to* have a roadworthy.....to make sure that owners are made aware of how much of a risk their vehicle is, but in reality, those drivers that put others at risk just drive without a roadworthy anyway.

No, I'm all for safety but via education not legislation. There's enough "dead weight" in Gov't departments as it is without adding yet another department. The infringement on personal "space" and resources is growing all the time and yet one more day out of my busy year to drag my boat or car to a testing station would infuriate me further.

An illustration.........The recent legislation regarding child safety has led to the (compulsory) introduction of courses designed to make for more skilled and knowledgeable foster carers and to filter out those with other "agendas" that could be detrimental for the children. A carer now has to attend 3 courses a year to keep their licence. A brilliant idea until put into practice. The recruitment rate has dropped and long term carers are leaving becuse they feel that as volunteers their time should be devoted to caring for the children not sitting in classrooms justifying gov't policy. The increased spending allocated has resulted in spending on more "dead weight" (the tutors) instead of it being spent directly on the kids.

All irrelevant to fishing but I'm simply trying to illustrate how more "good deeds via bureacracy and legislation" could eventuall lead to total collapse. The everyday man/woman is legislated against far too much IMHO. Legislation is there to protect (and rightly so) but quite often that very same legislation inevitably leads to "mule fever" ie folk become so sick and tired at how they are "imposed upon" that they rebel and simply refuse to participate.

A lot of legislation turns otherwise normal law abiding folk into criminals because they simply can't either find the time/money/aptitude to conform to that legislation, or because they have a conscientious objection to laws (impositions) that are inflicted upon them under the guise of democracy when nothing resembling that law was ever mooted at election time.

Teach personal responsibilty both to self and to society. Teach the acquisition of self -discipline via self-respect instead of *imposing* discipline. Somehow, achieve that (and it starts in the home), and there would be less need for freedom depriving legislation. Adults need to put more into teaching those values at home to their kids, instead of relying on schools and gov'ts to do their job for them. It will take a few generations but it needs to happen because we are sliding into an Orwellian nightmare where Big Brother will take complete control of our lives.

Excuse the ramblings.

kev

[Derek_Bullock]

Lets just wait and see what happens this year regarding the NEW Regulations that come into affect on Jan1.


Westie, today is Jan 1, what new regulations.


Derek

[peterbo3]

People die all the time doing dangerous & not so dangerous things. It is the way that it is. Fall off a 3 foot step ladder & break your neck. Perfect driving record for 25 years then take your eyes off the road for 2 seconds & head on into a semi. :o :o :o :o
Since man first evolved there have been deaths caused by factors other than sickness or old age. Don't sweat it. If it is your turn, either by your own input or that of someone else, then that is how it is.
As pointed out above, you CAN minimise risk by acting prudently but it can never be eliminated. Sometimes you are the bug & sometimes you are the windscreen. So sit back & rip open another tinny cos shit happens.
Having said that, tight lines & full eskies in 2006. ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Derek_Bullock]

If it is your turn, either by your own input or that of someone else, then that is how it is.


I do not now and never will accept that the actions of some moron doing the wrong thing and putting me and my loved ones at risk is acceptable and/or fate.


Derek

[Dignity]

Derek, I think Westie is referring to the PWC licence regs where you have to do a course before applying for a licence - is effective as of today. Up till yesterday if you had a boat licence, you paid $36, did a 30 question paper test (which is basically the entire booklet they give you) and voila you have your PWC licence. I think that it ceratinly is a good idea for anyone applying for a licence to do the course but that still doesn't help the 10% out there that are an absolute nuisance on the waters now.

Sam

[Derek_Bullock]

Thanks Sam.


Derek

[Nugget]

In this discussion, boats have being compared to cars.
While people operated, boats and cars are not a good comparison.
Because of the way our road system is set up – cars pass each other by metres at speed, pedestrians walk beside roads – if a motor vehicle has a malfunction – it has the potential to injure on coming traffic and bystanders.
Critical components like brakes, steering, and tyre tread ect. all play a major part in how safe a vehicles is.
Boats don’t have brakes.
There are no worn tyres.
There are no pedestrians at sea.
Malfunction of parts on a boat or motor, in the majority of situations, do not lead to collision or fatalities.
The majority of fatalities at sea are the result of sea conditions, bad seamanship and inappropriate vessels – not the ‘roadworthiness’ of the boat.
Unlike on a road, the people in danger, (besides rescuers) are the occupants of the boat, not innocent bystanders
It would seem to me that in order to reduce accidents at sea, we need to have:
• Speed regulations in areas that have a lot of traffic and swimmers nearby – which we have.
• Equipment requirements when venturing into exposed area – which we have.
• A licensing system that ensures you know the regulations – which we have.

I don’t think the answer is more regulations – I think the answer is improved education system before licensing and more feet on the ground enforcing the current regulations.
Also a bigger stick for perpetual abusers – loose your boat license for a period for offences.

What would we achieve by a roadworthy on boats?
Is it going to reduce incidences at sea?
It can not prevent motor failure – even new motors break down (and run out of fuel).
It could prevent unseaworthy boats from being launched – but it will not prevent small boats being used in conditions they are not suited for.

Are you prepared to undergo inspections and the inevitable fee to prevent unseaworthy boats being launched?

Some people want to do the right thing but genuinely don’t know if their vessel is ‘seaworthy’.
A solution would be voluntary roadworthy inspections by an expert that educates the inexperienced, points out potential problems and helps the owner understand the capabilities of his vessel.
It could be run by rescue organisations as a fund raiser.

Dave ><>

[Derek_Bullock]

I don’t think the answer is more regulations – I think the answer is improved education system before licensing and more feet on the ground enforcing the current regulations.
Also a bigger stick for perpetual abusers – loose your boat license for a period for offences.

Unfortunately to pay for and enforce this it means the Govt has to find the revenue. #How would they do that? ? ? # Increased registration and possible license fees.

Something to consider.


Derek

[roz]

Hi thumps,

Very good topic with some good arguements both ways, but I personally feel 'P' plates on the water is not the way to go.

I could be wrong here but most boating fatalities appear to involve people taking on weather and bar conditions they shouldn't have, in boats not meant for the purpose.

Most of their ages appear to be well over the 'young and fearless' bracket.

There has been a special licence available in NSW for quite a while now, that allows young teenagers to hold a restricted boating licence.

So it seems, there already is something along the lines of a provisional boating licence.

I was wondering if the same deal exists in QLD.

The MSB officers down here do checks on boats, usually in areas around river bars, and issue a sticker to show the vessel has been checked and is carrying all the required safety equipment.

The trouble is, in over twenty years my boat has only been checked once. I have to admit to being a shocker when it comes to carrying up to date flares and some of the other things we now have to have on board our boats.

Maybe part of the answer is to have more people out on the waterways checking us all out, like it or not. More education for those skippers who head out to sea, some sort of competency assessment perhaps?

cheers Roz.

[Derek_Bullock]

Hi Roz

Do you know the age for the restricted licence in NSW. As I understand it you can have a boat license up in Qld at age 16.


Derek

[Nugget]

Yes you are right Derek.
But the current education system to get a boat license is paid for the end user - it cost you to do a course to get your license.
I am not aware that the Gov. contributes anything to the prior education of boat licensing except printed booklets.
I would have thought hat enforcement of regulation would be self supporting... I'll have to ask the Police Traffic Branch that though ;D.

Dave ><>

[Derek_Bullock]

Dave

Not 100% sure but doesnt the Govt subsidise the approved training bodies who do the license courses.


Derek

[Nugget]

Not to my knowledge Derek - they are run as commercial enterprises and by all accounts, very profitable at this present time given the changes to PWC regulations etc.

Did you know that Surf Life Savers that operate IRB's (rescue vessels) are except from having a boat license?
Their training far exceeds the licensing requirements.
It is the training and practicle experience that is the key - not the regulations.

Dave ><>

[roz]

Hi Derek,

The license is called 'Young Adults License', a person as young as 12 years old can hold one.

Some of the limits are:-

Must be accompanied by an Adult holding a full waterways boating license

Can only operate a vessel between the hours of sunrise and sunset.

Can not exceed 20kts (Ithink that is very generous)

Can not tow a water skier.

The license has to be renewed every year on the applicants birthday, when that person reaches the age of 16 the license can be automatically transferred to an adult license.

In NSW, NO LICENSE is required for more than 2 nautical miles off shore, I am pretty sure the same thing applies in QLD (but don't pin me to that).

You also don't need a license if operating a vessel under 10 knots, in enclosed waters.

Cheers Roz

[Lucky_Phill]

Great reply Dave.

My daughter recieved her Boat Licence through a commercial operation, but, the course was part of her Marine Studies at High School. ( She paid for the test ). Apart from her grounding with me on various types and size boats, I think this way was very good, in that there was a fair amount of ' theory ' involved prior to her taking to the water. This theory, IS the education that is needed to assure a responsible driver/ skipper.

I do note that the new boat licencing system requires lots of theory, so maybe we will see a better educated bunch of skippers coming through !

Having also read other comments here, I have just checked my safety gear.............mmm bugga ! Flares....= use by Dec 2005.

OK, I'm off to the local boaty shop, and to drop off my old ones to the local VMR.

Cheers Phill

[roz]

Yes Phill.... I know, I know.... I did mention something about my flares and 1992. Ah!!! my New Years Resolution! New Flares and a thingo-pirb.

roz :-*

[westie]

Lets just wait and see what happens this year regarding the NEW Regulations that come into affect on Jan1.


Westie, today is Jan 1, what new regulations.


Derek


Thank you Derek for bringing to my attention regarding today is Jan 1 and a happy New Year to you.

If you were up with the Jet Ski Licences, you may know that as of Jan 1 you are now required to do a course to obtain a licence the same as you do for a boat Q&A and a Practical test, and you are unable to get a Jet Ski licence without having a Boat Licence.

I do belive you can not take them at the same time, but I could be wrong

You are NO longer able to just go into QLD Transpot and sit the 30 Questions for you Jet Ski Licence

[PinHead]

I just got back from the Pin...spent quite a few hours there today and covered a few miles...boats and jet skis everywhere....everything from Riv 48's down to boats I would not feel safe sitting in a swimming pool in...and how many officers did i see checking on speed limits etc..not a one...so what is the point of new regualtions for Jet Skis or any other form of water vehicle when , on one of the busiest days of the year, not one officer seems to be checking anything...maybe the overtime for them is out of budget restraints...therein lies the bulk of the problem...until there is adequate policing of existing regualtions what is the point of introducing any others?

[roz]

I just got back from the Pin...spent quite a few hours there today and covered a few miles...boats and jet skis everywhere....everything from Riv 48's down to boats I would not feel safe sitting in a swimming pool in...and how many officers did i see checking on speed limits etc..not a one...so what is the point of new regualtions for Jet Skis or any other form of water vehicle when , on one of the busiest days of the year, not one officer seems to be checking anything...maybe the overtime for them is out of budget restraints...therein lies the bulk of the problem...until there is adequate policing of existing regualtions what is the point of introducing any others?

On this very rare occasion I would have to agree with Pinhead.

On both sides of the boarder its the same old story.

Take Tumbulgum, one of my old hunting grounds as an example. It is one of the best water skiing spots on the Tweed River....and I do love my water skiing, but just go and check out the number of distance off offences that and occur in 30 minutes over any summer weekend, the number of times people ski under the bridge, it goes on and on.... and nobody gives a rats because they know they can get away with it.

Roz

[cooky]

Just an interesting thought, I seem to see the majority of people dying in boats lately from drowning (falling in the water) and their age and fitness seems to be an issue. A few cases from memory of younger, fitter people making it to shore and the older driver (or passengers) not. Do we start swimming lessons and have mandatory fitness testing at the boat ramp? as part of the license or testing rules?

I know the above is ridiculous, but really you just can't wrap everyone in cotton wool.

I just don't hear of too many boats running into each other, etc. Sometimes experience can be a bad thing - people learning boating tend to take limited risks until their confidence increases. Experienced people often push the envelope more (rougher conditions, further from shore, etc).

so many different angles you could argue / debate

[Dignity]

Pinhead, was down the pin on friday and the police were very present but (here's always a but) they seem to consentrate on the area from Tipplers south to Coran Cove.

Cooky, thought I saw some stats recently that showed alcohol was present in almost 90% of fatalities on the water in recent years, could be wrong but there is that nagging feeling somewhere. Have some contacts in the DPI that would have access to the stats but they won't be back from hols for a couple of weeks yet.

Sam

[The_Walrus]

Unfortunately, no amount of regulations, training or probation periods will stop the dickheads.

Luc

[cooky]

Cooky, thought I saw some stats recently that showed alcohol was present in almost 90% of fatalities on the water in recent years,

I;ve got no idea what it would be, but just using the example to show a different perspective. Can't imagine alcohol being 90%. Maybe there was only 3 deaths in boating over the stats period and two of them had 'some' alcohol in system.

It's a bit like this 'speed kills' that piss*s me off. Of course it does - bloody hard to get killed if your stationery.

[thumps]

It's a bit like this 'speed kills' that piss*s me off. Of course it does - bloody hard to get killed if your stationery.

speed doesnt kill.....its the sudden stop that does it


SO.....being stationary in that case CAN cause death ;D

[thumps]

Unfortunately, no amount of regulations, training or probation periods will stop the dickheads.

Luc


dam good point

[Lucky_Phill]

Yes Roz, The last time I spent some time on your boat chasing Spanish up 1770, I noticed a strange date on ya flares............... ::) ::)

1992 was a good year for Red Wine as well ! :P :P

Cheers Phill