Major truma first aid.

[Dug]

Quickclot a field clotting agent for first aid of major trauma and bleeding.

Something new that may be of interest especially to anyone doing long trips to remote areas.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18925435.800

some more information here

http://www.bestglide.com/quikclotpage.htm


And the instructions for use it may cause second degree burns bit that is better than bleeding to death.


http://www.bestglide.com/training_procedures.pdf

I would like to have a pack in my first aid kit just incase.

[2rods]

looks interesting.. 2nd degree berns are better than bleeding to death.

But my idea is not to get shot in the first place ;D ;D

Will keep an eye out for it up here, as you say on long trips it might be useful.

2rods

[Dug]

I am allergic to being shot, it brings me out in nasty red spots. [smiley=rifle.gif]

[theoldlegend]

Dug,

You might need some of that yourself if you don't get that precious piece of pottery fixed.

TOL

[WHITTO]

:-? :-?Unfortunately it will not be sold to anyone unless you have been trained in the application of it,and capable of proving you have had the training, I ask the question how difficult is to pour something on an open wound, Cheers Whitto ;) ;)

[onerabbit]

Household pepper is also good in an emergency, cobwebs are famous as an anti -coagulant, .............pepper really works , cant say i've tried the cobwebs though .

Muzz

[scorpion_500]

Household pepper is also good in an emergency, cobwebs are famous as an anti -coagulant, .............pepper really works , cant say i've tried the cobwebs though .

Muzz


Hey Muzz, I've not come across this before... at the risk of asking a dumb question, what do you use the pepper for and in what situations? I've done first-aid certification courses in the past, but never heard of pepper used in first aid before.

Cheers,

- scorpion

[wetaline]

Careful guys, I SAY AGAIN CAREFUL, there's a bit more to some of these things than you might think.

It's a four year degree in medicine, and then you are only a beginner.
(no jokes about a doctor's pracitce please)

Seriously, and I don't mean to offend any one here, I think you are the best bunch of guys around, but judging by the spelling and grammar used herein, some of you guys may not be ready for this stuff yet.

Even if you can lay your hands on it, get accredited first, if you can.

Surely there must be a physician or pharmacist or two on site that can shed some light on this one. Just because you read it on the "net" dosen't mean what you are reading is accurate.

If you are a medical professional, and choose to reply, you might want to register under a ghost name first to avoid any fallout later prior toreplying.

As for pepper, think about it, put a speck in your eye first and see if you think it's such a great idea to be putting it in an open wound. Remember the team in casualty have got to evacuate this stuff from the wound when the patient is presented. Then the doctors have to work with:
a) the original wound
b) the damage done by intervention

If you want to see how good pepper is at soaking up liquid, go pour some on top of a glass of water, that's where it will stay (ask anyone whos'e made a bloody mary and didn't stir it).
The urban myth is based on the fact that pepper (a finely ground, dried herb) will absorb moisture in proportions far exceeding it's initial volume. Because of the oils it contains, this dosen't actually happen readily.
On the other hand try using plain flour, corn flour, arrowroot, agar agar or gelatine and see what happens. These are true vegetable based thickening agents. AND I AM NOT ADVOCATING THEM AS FIRST FIELD ANTICOAGULANTS.

There are many considerations in the field when treating trauma, blood loss is just one. If you are really going to go "Harrisson Ford" I would suggest you do an advanced first aid course, dealing in delivering of injectables, suturing, pain management and the like.

If anyone is truly interested in this area of first aid, message me on this site and I'll see what I can come up with as far as a course is concerned - no promises.

[youngfisho]

wow,

its funny how people come out with new ways of treating the human body. but its really surprising the number of people who dont carry out propper simple first aid measures when someone is sick or injured. having worked in a busy emergency dept as a nurse for the past four years i have witnessed first hand numerous cases of trauma and injury which has been dealt with inappropriatly by either friends or relatives or bystanders. i would frequently encounter trails of blood originating from the car park all the way to the emergency entrance. often this is not through profuse bleeding but the total lack of first aid applied by the individual or group. when some one has a cut or laceration the first measure is to apply direct pressure to the wound. in exceptional circumstances where there is a penetrating injury such as a stick or nail it should be left in place and a bandage or combine placed around the site of trauma. (the stick acts as a plug or tamponade preventing any further bleeding as soon as the stick or nail or object is removed blood loss usually increases.

The most effective way of treating blood loss is to

apply pressure

elevate the limb (if involved)

application of an ice pack proximally to injury (may assist in peripheral vaso constriction to reduce blood flow to area)

however this can have a reversed effect by dropping the core body temperature and cause shivering which increases muscle movement and increases blood flow. use only for short periods at a time ie 10 mins


avoid using a torniquet, unless blood is spirting (arterial blood loss) in which case application of direct pressure will also help in minimising blood loss more than a torniquet.

these are just some simple steps to help reduce bleeding.

I could go on about the treatment of a patient who has been involved in a major trauma but that would involved too much of my time. but what i can say is that the application of that clotting agent in a field situation would do little to stem the flow of blood when a limb is severed or there is internal bleeding. it would also be less advisable putting it in the hands of some one inexperienced as someone else has mentioned.

if travelling to a remote area, make sure someone in the group or everyone has done a first aid course and is accredited in CPR. also carry the appropriate communication devices. if travelling to outback areas a satellite phone may be effective in notifying authorities of your situation or even an epirb.

carry enough first aid supplies to be able to treat everyone in the group.

if anyone has any questions feel free to pm me.

[Dr_Dan]

One thing that I always carry in first aid kit is super glue. Good for bringing wounds together when there are no sutures available. The emergency department uses a wound adhesive (basically the same ingredients as over the counter super glue), but it has a nice purple colour to it (and about a 10 fold increase in price!).

Wetaline:
(it's a 6 year degree mate ;) :'()

[DICER]

superglue is a likely carcinogen. I would not use it at all to seal a wound, even temporarily. There are plenty of other non-toxic practical methods available.

I would agree with Youngfisho and wetaline. Use proper first aid or medical treatment. Urban myths and village opinion are terrible. It can be very misleading and have bad consequences.

Dug though, has brought up a valid new treatment and it is being tested by medical personel. Police in the US are issued with it. There is also another gel being tested that does not cause burns but restricts blood flow very quickly. It is however still being tested.

Nicotine however from tobacco is also a vasoconstrictor. Therefore it can be used to restrict blood supply quickly. It has been used effectively in WWII to stop profuse bleeding. A crushed up cigarette is all that is needed to stem profuse blood flow in some instances (eg. superficial headwounds). Then again nicotine is a carcinogen (less so than superglue) and tobacco firms have the nasty habit of spraying their crops with maleic hydrazide to regulate nicotine production in the final days before harvest. It's a known carcinogen as well.

Better, though, you do not bleed to death. Proper first aid and courses are essential. I encourage anyone to take one. You don't know when an accident happens and you don't know how serious it can be. Prompt first aid can save lives.

A course only takes a few days in one week

[rossco]

it would be good if we could buy quick clot over the counter as my partner and my son both have Von willie brand disorder (bleeders) you can go camping and relax

[rossco]

it would be good if we could buy quick clot over the counter as my partner and my son both have Von willie brand disorder (bleeders) you can go camping and relax

[PinHead]

Careful guys, I SAY AGAIN CAREFUL, there's a bit more to some of these things than you might think.

It's a four year degree in medicine, and then you are only a beginner.
(no jokes about a doctor's pracitce please)

Seriously, and I don't mean to offend any one here, I think you are the best bunch of guys around, but judging by the spelling and grammar used herein, some of you guys may not be ready for this stuff yet.

Even if you can lay your hands on it, get accredited first, if you can.

Surely there must be a physician or pharmacist or two on site that can shed some light on this one. #Just because you read it on the "net" dosen't mean what you are reading is accurate.

If you are a medical professional, and choose to reply, you might want to register under a ghost name first to avoid any fallout later prior toreplying.

As for pepper, think about it, put a speck in your eye first and see if you think it's such a great idea to be putting it in an open wound. #Remember the team in casualty have got to evacuate this stuff from the wound when the patient is presented. #Then the doctors have to work with:
a) the original wound
b) the damage done by intervention

If you want to see how good pepper is at soaking up liquid, go pour some on top of a glass of water, that's where it will stay (ask anyone whos'e made a bloody mary and didn't stir it).
The urban myth is based on the fact that pepper (a finely ground, dried herb) will absorb moisture in proportions far exceeding it's initial volume. #Because of the oils it contains, this dosen't actually happen readily.
On the other hand try using plain flour, corn flour, arrowroot, agar agar or gelatine and see what happens. #These are true vegetable based thickening agents. #AND I AM NOT ADVOCATING THEM AS FIRST FIELD ANTICOAGULANTS.

There are many considerations in the field when treating trauma, blood loss is just one. #If you are really going to go "Harrisson Ford" I would suggest you do an advanced first aid course, dealing in delivering of injectables, suturing, pain management and the like.

If anyone is truly interested in this area of first aid, message me on this site and I'll see what I can come up with as far as a course is concerned - no promises.





No offence meant either but you really have to be careful when people cannot spell correctly (or could it just be a typing error)..LOL

[fishingnottake]

super glue isn'tt actually a carcinogen, but in a lot of cases it's too good at what it does, it will shut the wound but is damn near impossible to reopen it for treatment without causing futher damage, and will only seal the wound where it contacts it so you can quietly bleed to death further down, that being said most things are better than bleeding out.

[ShaneC]

I am lucky enough to work somewhere that being shot is an occupational hazard, and there just happens to be a lot of US soldiers around the place. I will suss them out and see if they really carry it ( I doubt that they do) and if it really works. Give me a couple of days and I will try to find out what the go is with this stuff...... thanks for the post Dug, it might come in handy..........

[onerabbit]

Hi guys,

think I should say that I lived many years in fairly isolated surroundings for a lot of years before moving back out to the coast !
My original comment was on anti coagulants.
Cobwebs being an untried myth, but pepper being a proven ( to me ) effective short term remedy in "minor" cases , I was not trying to suggest you pack an arterial bleed with pepper.
While not having the benefit of many years of study on the subject as some may have, 14 years of living hard , I am a senior first aider , also A.I.N. 3, was only a comment from experience.
I cant believe that some think that super glue is ok , but pepper isnt.
Scorpion, pepper is a good remedy for SMALL injuries, try it next time you cut yourself shaving & it wont stop bleeding , not recommending it for anything requiring hospitalization.
Mind you , I look for a certain garden weed when i get diarohea, is all down to what works for the individual.
Is just my opinion,

Muzz.

[Panda]

arrr-- Some of you home medical experts should consider your terminology.
ANTI-COAGULANTS actually are the things that STOP blood from clotting and increase bleeding.

Various treatments have benefits and some adverse effects. Knowing when and where to apply a specific treatment like this could be the difference between life and death. Like anything else, its a matter of proper training.

[HarryO]

Hey Dug, and all.

Good thread.


I was informed some years ago, by one of our chemical supplies reps, that one of the ingredients in domestic/industrial superglue is cyanide.

I would imagine that the product used in medical procedures would
differ from this...

[onerabbit]

You got me there Panda , it is sunday, the original question was on clotting agents, not ANTI coagulants , slip of my finger.
I'm not trained to the degree that , Im sure many of you are, but , the original question pertained to being stuck in an isolated spot, something I know about.
I was refering to "bush mechanics" of medical aid. When you had little else, not trying to advocate way out practices, simply what I have found works.

Muzz

[youngfisho]

Having used the medical "superglue" on a number of occasions that i care to remember it has always been used sparingly and only in certain cases. it is only suitable for wounds that have a neat and well defined edge. so if you cut yourself with a razor and the wound edges can be brought together with your finger than it is suitable. however if you suffer a laceration from a rusty fishing knife and the wound is contaminated or the wound edge is rough in shape then the glue is not effective. also if the wound edges are too far apart that some traction is required to bring them together then sutures or stitches as some like to call it are more appropriate. Also this glue smells nothing like the industrial superglue you buy over the counter and it cost that much money because it has a direct and specific purpose. Also the glue is mostly used for facial areas in young children because it is easier to apply and doesnt involve as much delicate application as does the suturing of say a 3 year old. As any mother or father would attest that kids are difficult to hold at the best of times, so try holding a kid down for 10 mins to apply sutures. Thats why glue is so effective 10 seconds to apply and the kid can walk out. but with sutues it often involves sedation which can consume a lot of time and resources and often means a long A and E stay for the parents and child.


On another note it is true that anything labelled medical has a 1000% price increase and well thats becase they can. the government are too concerned with satisfying the people that sponsor them (ie drug companies) and would rather spend 10 grand on a computer than buy one at dick smith that does the same job. but because the governments are often locked in contracts with these businesses then nothing can be done about it.


well thats my rant.



andrew

[DICER]

I'm not sure what "medical" superglue is then.

Commercial superglue can consist of (though it varies):
90 to 100% ethyl 2-cyanoacrylate
up to 10% 2-methyl methacrylate
trace amounts of hydroquinone
trace amounts of other organic hydrocarbons and or acids (stabilizers, plasticizers, or thickeners)

A lot of the time the adhesive composition is poorly described. The first two components are classified as severe irritants. Anyway it is the second component and other chemicals that may cause potential for carcinogenicity, but long term data rather than acute data, is lacking.

[DaveSue_Fishos_Two]

People should be very careful before they heed some of the advice or suggestions on this thread.
Of course medications suitable for human use are going to be expensive, because they have been tested and tested and tested and tried and tried and tried. I, for one, am happy to pay for something that I know is going to be safe.
Advice on procedures or applications to be used in the event of severe trauma should only be taken when it is given by someone completely and totally qualified.

Cheers
Dave

[polydriver]

In 20 years of ambulance work I have never had the need for any of these magic powders etc in the treatment of bleeding. Basic pressure, elevation, pad and bandage had done the job. In some cases a torniquet 'may' be needed but again in 20 years I have never used one. Bleeding can be stopped with the above regardless of size of wound from paper cut to deep laceration. If someone is going to 'bleed to death' it will happen quickly as a major artery has been damaged, or due to lack of treatment of a smaller wound over a period of time, or due to internal bleeding of which there is nothing first aiders or ambos can do to treat, this needs surgery.

A wound can be left for up to 12 hours for suturing. If left any longer the hospital can always debride (clean) the wound and then stitch or use packs for the wound to granulate (heal from the bottom up).

The use of super glue is one left for more experienced people in wound management. One of the problems is that if the wound is closed before being cleaned out properly, the germs left behind can grow and cause an infection resulting in more complications than leaving it open.
Second is that if you close the wound and seal the top with glue, there may be a space underneath that can cause an infection.
Either way glue is not for us laymen. As we are all fishermen/women, we are going to be covered in bait and fish guts and usually cut ourselves with a fishing knife. That type of wound needs a good clean prior to closure and the glue will only cause problems.

I think the message here is ... use the KISS principle. Simple first aid measures are always the best for anyone other than Doctors who can do the other 'magic' stuff.

If you havent done one ... enroll and do a first aid course. Nothing warms the cockles of an old ambos heart to see an injured person having been treated properly by a competent first aider. If you want to get some other ideas during the course, ask the instructor during the breaks for some extra hints and tips. They love to share their knowledge.

[seabug]

I have withdrawn this post as an exserviceman has suggested that my post was incorrect.

The comment on Brain/Concussion injuries from roadside bombs was from a recent program on SBS television.

Regards
Seabug

[dazza]

hi all,
not back at work for 5 weeks so i cant find out about what is in "medical" superglue ;D ;D ;D,
superglue's use in medicine was developed by us army surgeons in vetnam (i think), they used it in anastomosis (joining) of the bowel in the feild, so wounded soldiers could be patched up until they got to a proper medical facility. it went from there, to todays usage
cheers
dazza

[dazza]

hi seabug,
there are a few products available.
alginates are a seaweed based product that has very good haemostatic properties.
there are also synthetic products (forget the name) which are very good also, as far as buying, probably not worth it
the types of wounds we fisho's mostly encounter pressure and a dressing is going to do the trick.
cheers
dazza

[Graham_N_Roberts]

I'll back up Polydriver on this. I'm also a Paramedic and strongly urge all to be aware that appropriate first aid .. that is, pressure and elevation, pad,bandage and elevation along with ice, are the only recognised first aid treatments for haemorrhage. The need to apply any torniquet is extremely rare.

That means guys, that you can be held accountable for any other treatment you perform.

Do yourself a big favour, enroll in a recognised First Aid Course, and stick to the skills learned. Set yourself up with a good First Aid Kit and keep it close by.

By good, I don't mean a pharmacy storeroom, but a selection of .... Tweezers, scissors, pack of bandaids, 3 of each 5 cm, 7.5 cm and 10cm bandages and 3 of each 7.5 cm, 10 cm and 1.5 cm pads, and 3 triangular bamdages. A silver anti-shock blanket woud be a good investment, but anything to keep the patient warm will do.

Oh, and don't forget ... dial 000.

Good fishin' to ya.

[el_carpo]

It's always good to see medicine advancing. Have a look at this. It's a link to a list of causes and cures of a doctor from the old days.

http://americanrevolution.org/medicine.html


I've heard that they used to use gun powder to cauterize wounds in the field. They'd pour it in and ignite it. FOOM! OUCH! :o

Another treatment from long, long ago (and not so long ago by some tribes) was to use the heads of driver/army ants to suture up wounds. The ants have huge pincers on their heads and they would be held up to the cut. The ant would clamp down on each side of the cut and squeeze the skin on each side together (closing the wound). Then the "medic" would break off the rest of the body leaving the head in place to hold the wound shut. He'd keep on busting off ant heads until the entire wound was clamped shut. Pretty clever really. Painful as heck, I bet, but still clever. ;D

Three cheers for ambulance crews, nurses, and doctors.-------and the pain-killers they administer! ;D

Great thread!

[goddy84]

On another note it is true that anything labelled medical has a 1000% price increase and well thats becase they can. the government are too concerned with satisfying the people that sponsor them (ie drug companies) and would rather spend 10 grand on a computer than buy one at dick smith that does the same job. but because the governments are often locked in contracts with these businesses then nothing can be done about it.
that is so true .im in a wheelchair ''c5 quad'' and ill tell u this -- they can and will sell stuff for what ever they like as ppl like my self have no choice but to pay .. the chair i sit in is $5000 worth and thats a push chair .now being in the steel fab game prior to my mishap i would say the cost to make the thing would be no more than 1grand that includes wages of 2 men ...

as for all you bush tucker men out there i also have spent many years on large propertys up north/west aus and ill say this proper first aid ''not hear say bodge jobs'' save lives its what we do first that deturmens the end outcome ...
leave the glue/stiches/ect to a doctor ....

my partner is a RN in the ed room trourma and resus and the things they see from bodge jobs or wifes tailes just makes things worse ...

my 5 cents worth anyway

cheers mick

[Dug]

this was never intended to replace good first aid training but I do know of 2 cases of severed femoral arteries that may have survived if this was available.

Anyone planning a field trip should have an up-to date first aid certificate.

Margo was teaching first aid/ field medicine in PNG recently it is areas like this where Quick-Clot would be most useful.

Applying pressure in a moving boat or bouncing 4 wheel drive for long period can become very difficult.

Dialing 000 is great but it's not always an option where the helipad is 3 days walk away.

Cheers doug


Remember ABC Airway Breathing Circulation

Not much point in stopping the bleeding if the person cannot breath

if they cannot breathe the bleeding will stop soon anyway.

[Maxg]

Its inert, hydrophobic sets quickly and is great for closing cuts on fingers from sizzling GsP braids. It can also be removed easily with CA glue remover, which hospitals have. You can also get it off by immersing the glued object in boiling water, although that's rather extreme for hoominbeeins.
Rather neat stuff for anglers because you can also glue knots in mono, dacron, and GsP braids and this will make the knot rather strong.
The quick cure for GsP knots is a double uni knot and a drop of CA glue, it must be a thin glue because the glue needs to wick into the braid.
All as well as glue on cut off legs arms and heads. MaxG