Ciguatera

[FishOn]

Prompted by Garry’s report (and subsequent replies http://www.ausfish.com.au/cgi-ausfish/yabb2/YaBB.cgi?num=1144615417) I have been having a closer look at this. I do not want any of my friends to get this as a result of eating fish that we catch. I’m sure you feel the same.

The outlook does not appear rosy. My plan to minimise the risk of getting Ciguatera by targeting smaller Spanish looks to have been an incorrect position. That the occurrence and distribution of Ciguatera is increasing and that it is severely under-reported is of major concern.

I have also been trying to ascertain what official reporting and trace-back procedures are in place. Hopefully, these investigations will give a result. One of you may be able to clarify or ascertain the situation.

I have listed some points below that I thought relevant to help in understanding and minimising our risk of contacting Ciguatera. I hope these are also helpful to you.

I also hope we can get some accurate understanding (official) of the present extent of the problem.

Seemingly:

One Qld Government agency involved in Ciguatera tried to obtain stats (some time ago) from Qld Health regarding hospital cases and this was refused.

It is a notifable disease under the Health Act. Here is the Health Fact Sheet http://www.health.qld.gov.au/phs/Documents/ehu/19397.pdf

Sydney fish market refuses Spanish over 10kgs and coral trout over 6kg.

A report (2004) specifically about Spanish mackerel in Queensland. http://www.reef.crc.org.au/publications/techreport/pdf/Technical%20Report%2051.pdf. I have not read this yet. Hopefully I can read it tonight.

Here is info about an action against a charter boat operator http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/08/08/1028157989505.html. i do not know of the result of this.

I found the following info in the Lehane report helpful (http://www.affa.gov.au/corporate_docs/publications/pdf/animalplanthealth/chief_vet/ciguatera.pdf)

‘The association of reef disturbances with abundant growth of G. toxicus and the occurrence of CFP has been observed frequently, and the organism that produces toxin appears to be one of the first growing on new or denuded surfaces’. (Lehane, p 4)

Platypus Bay, notorious for Ciguatera does not have any corals (Lehane, p 52). Ciguatera here is the reason Harvey Bay Spanish are banned from eating.

Risk of contracting is ‘increasing in incidence, prevalence and distribution’. (Lehane, p 55).

Considerable under-reporting, non-reporting and misdiagnosis is common (Lehane, p 6, 34)

‘The disease seems to be becoming more common, is not restricted to a
few species of fish’. (Lehane, p 56)

‘Clearly some form of control on catching, traceback and consumption of ciguateric fish is required’. (Lehane, p 60)

Consumption of only a small portion (20-100 g) of any one fish at the first sitting (Lehane, p 63) is recommended. I/We may be better organising our filleting, freezing and eating inline with this recommendation.

No way of knowing how much a person has accumulated. (Lehane, p 43)

Subsequent episodes are more severe than the first occurrence. (Lehane, p 43)

No evidence to support a 2.5kg safety limit for coral trout. (Lehane, p 41)

Some evidence to support symptoms result from more than one toxin. (Lehane, p 13, 41)

Consumption of alcohol can cause recurrence of symptoms and an increase in severity. (Lehane, p 25)

Death occurs when the most toxic parts (vital organs, head, roe, liver) of fish are consumed. (Lehane, p 23).

Appears that ciguatoxins can penetrate the skin and mucous membranes. (Lehane, p 21).

Excretion of ciguatoxin from fish is slow. (Lehane, p 10).

Spanish and other mackerels are involved (Lehane, p 8).

Consumption of raw fish may be associated with greater toxicity (Lehane, p 5).

Kind regards
Trevor

[Willo]

Yeh Trevor
Its scary stuff. Fishing for Spanish macs with Live bait is one of my favorite forms of fishing and over the years have eaten heaps of it and always thnking it won't happen to me.
But Garys case has driven it home (was fishing close to him that day and it could have been Me)
Be interesting to know if the members on this site will still be eatin Spanish Macs.or take the lottery chance of something like 1 in 10000 that they won't get it

Willo

[Burley_Boy]

Is that the real stats Willo. Is it one fish in 10000?

Be interesting to know not the stats of how many persons in a state will get it as opposed to how many people who actually consume fish will get it. Does the stats take into the calculation all the people who don't consume fish and then toss them all together to get the stats, if so the chance could be considerably higher than the stats purport. Hope that makes sense it reads a bit wierd.

My cat will be getting a lot more fresh fish fillets in the future and I'll have some a day later.

[banshee]

Burley Boy your cat will need to eat one sixth of it's body weight and hold it down to give you an accurate gauge.

[fishlady]

Yep pretty scary owning a fish shop and selling the stuff. Have never had nor heard of any drama with the macks around here (Gove) but wont touch a coral trout or any type of cod over 5kg. Stupid thing is that every 2nd person asks for coral trout fillet!

[FishOn]

Just had it confirmed, by a very reliable source, that a couple of seasons ago a well respected fisherman got a second dose of it from a 12kg spaniard caught off the 4 mile reef SE of Elliott Heads (at Bundy).

He had previously had a dose so knew about it. They fed some to a dog and two cats before consuming any themselves. The animals seemed ok after about an hour. The two guys were hanging out for a nice feed so they went ahead and starting eating. Half way through the meal one animal went over, then another, then another. The guys realised they were in strife.

Killed one cat and the dog. Cost a fortune to save the other cat. The cat that survived also survived a tick bite a little earlier. Can't confirm how much the animals or the guys ate at this stage as he is up north and uncontactable at the moment.

Seemingly this incident occurred about the time of the first coral bleaching in the area.

We regularly go to Bundy and eat fish caught from the four mile and other areas - darn!

Kind regards
Trevor

[banshee]

The bloke that told us about the "cat method" was very clear that you had to wait till the next day(12 hours),all the people he interveiwed that used this method lived in the area known as the ciga capital of Aust and they did not eat fresh Spaniards,they all have two freezers, the fish from the 1st freezer is tested on moggy and moved to the next when it passes the test.

[Grand_Marlin]

Trevor,
I hope you find a better solution than the cat theory.

I dont know how well my kids would take it if their cat died.....

Am I right in saying that eating mackeral, especially spanish, seems to be the most common source of ciga?

Cheers

Pete

[SeaHunt]

Sooner the cat than the kids , but I can understand where you are coming from :-/
Neighbours cat maybe? #::)


I only have personal knowledge of people getting it from Spanish Macs.

[bigmack]

For all those people that had trouble with cats in the boat and cats keeping them awake at night and posted threads about how to fix the problem;.................. now you know what the answer is. Ha Ha laughing out loud.

Give Gary a call he probably has a fresh supply that could be well used.

I knew there was a good use for cats!!

Cheers
Phill
ps: for the cat lovers im just takin the p%$$


A

[FishOn]

Lehane’s report says 3.6 cases /10 000 for coastal areas of Queensland, and these figures are thought to be gross under-estimations.

It is thought only 10-20% of cases are reported. Minor incidents are seemingly the most common to be misdiagnosed.

Pete (Grand Marlin) the main toxic species are spanish mackerel, coral trout, reef cod, and barracuda. Each of these is a well recognised carrier. However, more species are involved, up to 400 seemingly. The carriers at the start of the chain are defined as ‘carnivorous fish that prey on herbivorous fish’. From there it is the larger fish eating smaller fish cycle which causes an accumulation in the older fish - not necessarily larger fish.

Although there is a relationship between age and size of fish, the theory is that the older fish are more likely to be carriers. Old male Spanish are usually small and this is a reason for not relying on the size of the fish to determine potential carriers.

I was considering cobia (often very large) as a potential carrier as they prey on smaller fish. They are often found towards the bottom. I then found cobia and snapper mentioned in a report somewhere – I will try to find the reference/s and details.

The main environmental theme/theory is of reef/bottom disturbance that in some way enables it to ‘begin’. Recently (and just before Garry’s incident) we had two good ‘blows’ (in southern Queensland). I was wondering if these blows caused any reef/bottom disturbance in the Tweed area (or elsewhere) that allowed/enabled the toxin to be in fish caught at the Tweed.

It is looking more and more like freshly caught Spanish over 5-6kg are off the menu.

Kind regards
Trevor

[banshee]

The person that addressed us (fishing club) on the subject said that it was more prevalent and the greater risk was in Coral Trout,the catch was that you were a lot more likely to get it from a small Spaniard than a small Trout.

[Burley_Boy]

Seems like its a play with numbers, 400 species involved but thats worldwide and thus it would be pretty darn interesting to know which of our local species are implicated in serious incidents. From what I have seen so far the biggest risk factors in our area seem to be the Coral trout and the Spanish Mackarel.

I'd like to see pressure brought to bear on some institution to publish and push for accurate statistics on all the cases every year in our state. If there is a one in 5million or whatever chance in getting a dose from Snapper then please educate us!

Some may find it cruel to feed the cat first but lets remember that its still regarded as pretty remote chance of getting a dose and all I'd be doing is putting our health before that of our animals, I'd also consider consuming a small amount myself prior to feeding it to the family as an extra after the cat, that should leave the family pretty safe
...
That a cat will consume 1/6 of its bodyweight is unlikely in our cats case but I'd still figure that it would get sick if it was fed Garry's Spaniard. 1/6 of its bodyweight and I'd probably kill the cat from overeating before I poisoned it!

My family is extremely safe as I can't seem to boat any spaniards. ::)

[Spaniard_King]

It's definately a major concern which I recon will rare it's head more often in areas south of Hervey bay.

Spanish Mackerel is definately off my list of eating fish and I will be the guinea pig for larg fish that comes into my boat from now on.

I would not place any weight in cats being a good test case for Cigatoxin.

Trevor, have you any info on people who have had a second dose of Cigatoxin as I am concerned of what the consequenses are for my kids as they have a whole life ahead of them, which I hope seafood to be apart of.

cheers

Garry

[choppa]

i'm still curious to know why the cannery industry doesn't seem to have this problem, or is it just me being dumb,,,i posted a thread in garry's original post with the same query and have just gone for a quick browse over the replies since i asked the question with no report back on this,,,,it is an increasing problem,,,so one would think that the "big boys" must have some safety net to fall back on in the event that an effected fish was processed and distributed to god knows where,,

also do any of the reports list how the fish is prepared prior to consumption??
don't know if this matters, but its just a thought,,,

hope you had a good easter garry, and also hope the family/friends are getting back on track

choppa

[Grand_Marlin]

G'day Garry,

Yes it is a concern for the kids.

Especially keeping in mind that a friend of mine and her daughter ended up in hospital with ciga from eating take away battered fish from the local fish shop in Noosa.

It just goes to show how vulnerable you could be, through no fault of your own.
Especially seeing as a good second dose of ciga apparently has the potential to kill....

Trev, you are doing a great job.
Please pursue this until we get some definite answers.

Cheers

Pete

[fishlady]

Hey Guys you scare me! Do I continue to sell it or not? What of the commercial guys that sell it to me........will they still have a job? Mackeral licences are not a cheap item.......are they about to become so?
Yes we definately need a comprehensive list of the danger fish and potential danger areas? Is it specific to certain areas or is that another myth?

[FishOn]

Garry my double dose contact is away at prsent. I will hear when he returns and see if he is happy to be contacted by you. If that works out I will send you a PM regarding his contact details.

Hi Fishlady. I am concerned about this also especially seeing as it seems to be a growing problem. As a result I am trying to educate myself a lot more and asking questions in official circles as well. I would encourage you (and others) to do the same - we all have political, government, commercial, research and medical contacts that we can approach. Hopefully some of these will assist us in knowing the present extent of the problem and how we go about eliminating/minimising our risk.

Kind regards
Trevor

[bigmack]

Hi Choppa - what canning industry................I have never looked for canned mackerel or seen it?

Who buys canned mackerel and is there a large industry for it - mostly canned fish seems to be tuna.

tx
Phill

[fishlady]

Thanks Trevor,
Will be contacting as many officials as I can to find out as much as i can. If anyone is forthcoming with info I will pass it on.
This is too small a town to be taking risks like poisoning them
....mmm ...........although ....there are a few!!
Not really but tempting!
Cheers
Jane

[choppa]

Hi Choppa - what canning industry................I have never looked for canned mackerel or seen it?

Who buys canned mackerel and is there a large industry for it - mostly canned fish seems to be tuna.

tx
Phill

i agree phill that the more popular is tuna & salmon, but mackeral is avail,, its also used in pet food (so i'm told),,, i'm not saying that the market is over flooded with the stuff,,,it just makes you wonder what sort of precautions/insurance they have in play to minimise any risk,,,

also makes you wonder what happens if you use the frames/gut/head for bait, and the fish/crab that eats this will be also effected,,,,,

everyone is aware of the problem,,,and when you think back, it was also relevant 10-15 yrs ago with also the same % of people being effected much the same,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,choppa

[gone_phishin]

G'day fishlady

We lived in Nhulunbuy for 10 years from '86 to '96 and it was always prevalent around there then. Bremmer Island was always a no go zone as far as any kind of fish being kept and eaten was concerned and there used to be a map put out by the NT Government that showed the known Ciguatera ares in and around the Gove Peninsular in orange. I'll see if I can track it down for you, but there should still be a stack of guys up there that can tell you some pretty horrific stories about their doses of Ciguatera.

Maybe you don't see or hear that many people who have had it as they are usually the ones who go out and catch their own rather than buying it, but it used to be a common talking point out at Nabalco as the guys rang in crook with all the classic symptoms. One of my workmates had a ripper dose of it that lasted well over 6 months :P

As said in another thread on the same subject we never contracted it but then we never ate fish caught by anyone else or anything over 2 kg's, and definately no Macks :(

I'm sure the Pro boats around Gove know exactly where to catch and not to catch fish from as this is their livelihood as well.

Are you in the shop that used to be up at the Captain Cook Shopping Centre? How is it going?

regards
Geoff

[vanurose]

When we lived in Hervey Bay(4 years ago)a fisho caught a Queenfish and was warned by all of us to test it on his cat first. He did test it on his cat one night. The next night he ate Queenfish steaks with his wife and within 2 hours they were both ambulanced to the hospital. They were there for 10 days and were critical and nearly died. The cat was given the rest of the fish by the neighbours and it is still alive. So don't trust the cat theory.
If you look at the world map of ciguatera hot spots then H Bay is the capital of the world.
That is why we ended up in Cairns, who wants to live in a place that is world renowned for a deadly toxin.
After the Queenfish episode people started talking about other cases and it is rampant down there with the near death poisonings.
Most people are in Denial Mode though down there, but we we took notice of the facts and left.
Cheers
Rose

[Slient]

Gee... Queenie on new list?

Rose, tell me what was length or weigh on queenie?

Trevor, good work and well done research over Ciguatera...
Question is does Wahoo carry them because I consider similar to Spanish mac?

Keep post

Silent

[vanurose]

The Queenis was around 8kilo.
The reason I know that was a few days later we caught a Queenie the same size and another fisho told us the story as he approached us and said that that was the same size that sent that couple to hospital. Luckily he was in time to tell us so it was successfully released. I originally thought that the Queenie must have been bigger but apparently size does not matter as most fish are pelagic anyway.
Cheers
Rose

[FishOn]

Queenies, amberjack (big problem overseas, not as big a problem as the other primary carriers here) and kingfish are potential carriers.

Silent, I have not seen wahoo appear as probems in any list (that I can remember). I think they would be much less of a problem as they are an open sea roamer compared to spanish which are an inshore reef roamer. They live in different areas although they are occassinally found to feed in the same spots. Wahoo are more likely to be found where the deep water is not far away. Wahoo come from the ocean (sometimes) to feed on particular reefs. They like deep and clear water (100m +) and like to come in where the depth quickly changes to a shallow reef/bommie. Whereas the spaniards move up and down the inshore reefs.

Kind regards Trevor

[Slient]

Thanks

Silent

[fishlady]

Hey Geoff,
Life's good and yes we're up Captn Cook end of town in contractors.
At present we have the garden in the house, the house in the freezer truck, the freezer truck nearly in and tied to the walkin freezer, the "banga" ( Henry's landy) in front of that and the supplies loaded up in the ute ready to go to the cyclone shelter!! Nasty weather brewing!

Anyway I suppose i should have asked my partner Henry first since he's lived here all his life and happens to have been one of the guys with a horror story of poisoning....from a Mack! Too funny! Not for him I guess!
Ive heard about Bremmer too and that still stands/ is talked about as a no go zone. It's always been a bit of a no go zone for us anyway as there's an aggressive little croc on the western side and every time we've dived on the eastern side the sharks are too plentiful for my liking! I would prob find the map you talk of in library archives somewhere if you cant find it???

You wouldnt recognize Gove now. Cliche but true. 1800 man camp next to IGA (Captn Cook) new houses, streets and still no accommodation to be had for under $500 a week! How is life after Gove?
Gotta go. More stuff to tie down
Cheers Jane