Lure the fish

[Nathalie]

Hello #:)
Can anyone tell me, if I was to keep live bait in a bait keeper over the side of the boat, instead of in a bait tank on the boat, would they send out distress signals and so lure the fish to me. Just a theory. What do you think. # ;)

[Big_unit]

Give them a torch at night and they might send SOS signals and if that doesnt work give them flares.

;D ;D ;D ;D


Seriously they would send distress signals and yes fish will come to you, probably in the form of grey suits with teeth.

;D ;D ;D ;D

Cheers
James

[Nathalie]

:) They can't use torches, but do you think if I gave them instructions that they would be able to use the flares or are you talking about the one that you wear. # # ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :-* # # #

Seriously now.

I don't like the ones in grey suits so maybe I will not try this. Thanks for you advise. # # #
:) ;)

[onerabbit]

Our live bait set-up is 2 25ltr buckets, one with holes for over the side, one with no holes for when we move around.
We see our share of sharks, but I doubt it is because of the livies, no shark has ever had a go at the bucket.

Muzz

[sunny]

If you really want to see this in action, you need to be on a dive boat doing a night dive. Sometimes they shine a bright light into the water to show divers where the boat is.

Bright light attracts little shrimps - little shrimps attact little fish - little fish attract bigger fish - bigger fish attract .... :o You get the idea.

Coming up after a dive when one of these lights has attracted lots of big things is changing underwear time.

I guess predators are just naturally curious. If it works for light and it works for burley, I don't see why it shouldn't work with livies in a bucket.

[seatime]

If you

Coming up after a dive when one of these lights has attracted lots of big things is changing underwear time. #



sunny, I reckon it'd be safer keeping your wetsuit all warm and squishy.
If you let that lot out it'll attract the blind mullet and Churchill bream. ;D

[jim_farrell]

Nathalie, no worries at all, cheapest live bait tank you will find. ;)

[warrior]

i did that in darwin with the bucket ,out one day had it over the side and next thing the boat is pulling against the tide,look back to see a huge shark with his mouth right around it squashing it till the lid shot off .ripped it of and then let it go.dont know what sort of shark but was told big tigers live in the estury.

[dan88]

and theres your answer... :D

[Nathalie]

:)
Definitely will not be doing it. It took me a long time to get up the courage to get in a boat and to go out in the bay. I have been having a ball, even got the nick name ONE MORE CAST. Something like this with just put me Back on land. :o :o :o ;)

[Slider]

Pleased to see that you've been reading my stuff Nathalie.
The theory is ok but it wouldn't do the job that you are hoping. Firstly the walls of the bait keeper would confine the vocalisations and penetration into the surrounding water would be fairly limited. Secondly you wouldn't be creating enough of a drawcard for predator fish with only a few livies in the tank. If you had 5000 livies in there and suitable sound penetration into the water then I would say that it would work.

The way in which this attraction method will be used is to record with a hydrophone a number of baitfish in a suitable acoustic environment and then amplify this recording so that it sounds like a massive school of distressed baitfish. Alternatively, recording in the wild a school of perhaps spotty macks feeding on large schools of bait. This recording would also have feeding vocalisations from the spotties which may add to the drawcard for spotties, but may also send tailor for example in the opposite direction.

Given that this has never been done before, it is impossible to know what methods are going to work best on different species. There are a number of different recordings that can be made of different baitfish and in different circumstances and until the research is conducted it remains just a theory.

Just for interest - in the Solomons Chinese commercial fishermen targetting tuna have had problems with the tuna abandoning the area after a successful shot. In order to reverse this area abandonment the fishermen have taken to netting massive quantities of baitfish and then dumping them into the water as both a berley and live bait emitting signals. End result is that baitfish stocks in the Solomons are now in serious trouble and subsequently predator species as well. The fish attraction technology whilst being particularly dangerous to global fish stocks, may have an application here that would be preferable to the current method.

Note : I have been warning all fisheries in Australia that this technology is being developed and so far the only responses that I have received have been from recreational anglers wanting to utilise it for their own purposes. The Canadians are just starting to research this and will before long have the ability to attract a wide range of species. If our fisheries were prepared to invest some time and energy into this when they were first made aware of it, then patents could have been attained and controls over its useage put in place. I would have done it myself but lack the scientific expertise and the $1.5 million required for world wide patents. It's still not too late either but the interest level from fisheries is still zero. The amazing part for me is that we have marine bioacoustic experts in Australia that have already demonstrated that the theory works in an unrelated experiment near Lizard Island. Incredibly, those scientists still aren't aware of what they achieved other than discovering how reef fish larvae choose a reef on which to inhabit.
I'll dig up the research conducted and post it here for you all to read - it also has some relevance to marine parks that are such a hot topic at the moment. - have just had a quick look on the net for this study and by typing 'reef fish larvae lizard island' found plenty of info and is definitely worth a look for those interested.

Lindsay

[Nathalie]

Sorry Lindsay, but what stuff. :) :-?

[Slider]

Nathalie I don't know anyone else in this country writing or talking about fish vocalisations and particularly fish attraction based on vocalisations. I've written a lot about it on this site. Just assumed that was where you derived your theory but would appear not to be the case. If not then I would be very interested where you heard about distress signals.

Cheers

Lindsay

[Nathalie]

:-?
Sorry Lindsay, but you have lost me, I didn't hear it from anywhere, I just assumed it and then started to think logically.
I thought that nearly every one knew about fish in distress sending out distress signals, that’s why for e.g.: when you are fishing in one spot for too long after catching fish after fish the ones in the grey suits start to arrive and you start pulling in 1/2 a fish, or the reason why they start to appear around spear fishermen. #:) :) :)

[seatime]

slider

I've followed your posts and found them intriguing, just had a look at some of the Lizard Is stuff too.

If we start luring commercial species aren't we exacerbating the sustainability issues. The theory looks sound but won't the fish stocks need to be artifically increased to cope with the extra effort.
Obviously trials need to be conducted, though I'd prefer to see a method of boosting stocks first, otherwise it'll be like "shooting fish in a barrel", won't it?.

Good luck with getting it off the ground in Aus, might be better selling it to the yanks, then we can buy the technology back for $m more.
Any more data would be appreciated.
rgds

[Nathalie]

:) Hi Lindsay

I have just been scanning over some of your postings and in this instance I was not referring to what you have been writing about, vocalisation. I was more on the lines of vibrations in the water as a distress signal that predator fish would pick up. But I have often wandered if they did communicate to each other in some way. Like someone ells said it would explain why when you throw one back they tend to go off the bite for a while. I have often jokingly said to my husband that the little bugger has let his mates know that we are here (but maybe I shouldn't joke about it). Thanks for you input.

Nat. :) :)

[Slider]

Sorry Nathalie, we have been on a different wavelength and I'm not sure if you are referring to distress signals being generated by the fish drumming muscles against the swim bladder that can be heard, or eratic swimming patterns that can be detected by other fish and sharks through the lateral line. The latter being well documented for a long time. Irrespective, you have raised a subject that requires discussion.

When I first started writing about fish vocalisations and distress signals last year, it seemed as if hardly anybody in Australia was aware that fish did communicate. Certainly no one person at the time that I spoke to other than Mark Meekan at Northern Territory Fisheries and Steve Starling had any awareness. Since then there has been some research on garfish vocalisations by Ian Tibbets at UQ and NT Fisheries are now studying black jew vocalisations. I'd like to think that it was now common knowledge but that is not what I'm finding out there. You obviously have an awareness though and I am pleased that the subject has been brought up by somebody other than myself for discussion here. Having spent so much time researching this area and knowing how much of a role communication plays in marine ecosystems, I am eager for our fisheries to consider these aspects in their management practices.

Gelsec, yes mate it is very scary that such a tool could be used. I had major ethical dilemmas when I first realised that it might be possible to attract fish in this way. I recall a meeting I had with Gary Fooks last year only half an hour before meeting with patent attorneys to discuss patents on the technology. Gary was quite adament that I shouldn't try to develop the technology for obvious reasons, but I assured Gary that somebody was going to very soon anyway and that it may as well be me as a conservationist rather than commercial fishermen. I had a sleepless night that night bouncing around all sorts of horrendous thoughts about the Phillipines or Indonesia or any number of countries using the technology as Gary quite rightly suggested will happen. I tried very hard at that point to make one of our state fisheries aware of the potential and received no interest at all so started talking with different companies here and overseas. Then at that point early this year I discovered that a research facility in Canada was going to research the concept and I knew then that I wasn't going to be involved in any development of the technology. So my agenda now is to make governments aware that this technology will soon be available and that legislation on its useage is required in order to avert a major catastrophe. Still no interest from any state or federal authority. Also no interest at any stage on distress vocalisations and area abandonment caused by netting other than from the Fisheries Research And Development Corporation in Canberra who eventually responded to my emails by saying that they think I might have something. Mind you I have a heap of emails from scientists from around the world that support the theories and the ABC is in possession of research that proves it but which I haven't been able to locate.

The fish attracting technology can be used I believe in improving efficiencies of the commercial industry. This is providing other similar stock assessment technologies that are currently available are adopted so that quotas allocated for each species are of an appropriate level. The problem however is always going to be how to prevent the irresponsible useage of the technology by governments world wide as Gary is quite rightfully very concerned about.

I hope I'm not taking your post off the path that you intended Nathalie and if I have I do apologise.

While I'm at it - if anybody can recall seeing an ABC program that was aired around 2001 on atlantic salmon and distress vocalisations from netted fish causing area abandonment - I am trying to find it. I thought it was on the 7.30 Report but I couldn't find it in their archives. It may have been Landline but not in their files either, so now not sure what program it was on. Would be useful to send to DPI.

Lindsay

[Nathalie]

That is OK Lindsay I have had my question answered anyway. ;)

[Slider]

Right, now I know what you are talking about Nathalie - you posted the clarification while I was typing. Sorry to change the gist of your post although the topics are interrelated.

Lindsay

[CFisher]

Hi Lindsay

I am a commercial fisherman based in Townsville - not a born and breed commercial fisher - I have a background in fisheries research and management before the politics dulled the view and I jumped ship.

Anyway, very interested in your views and have read all of what you have written here in the last couple of months (at least I think so) regarding fish vocalisation and area abandonment. As you suggested in a different thread I have searched the web for published articles on fish abandonment, however without success. Could you please direct me to some published research that report on these matters?

In my younger years I spent a fair amount of time fishing the beaches of Teewah and Fraser (late 80s and early 90s) as my folks owned a property on the esplanade at Boreen Point. Beautiful part of the world - but even then the crowds were getting to big for me - hate to think what things would be like now!

Anyway, looking forward to finding out a little bit more about your views
Cheers
Andy

[Murks]

The only time I have had my livie bucket taken was at the end of the Lucinda Jetty in FNQ when a HUGE Groper decided that he wanted to eat the whole thing...I had too cut the rope holding it ..I tell ya, when ya sitting quiet fishing away and that happens it scares the hell out of ya :o...will never forget that
Murks
Will try and find the pics of that groper taking our catch as we brought it up...

[Slider]

Hi Andy

Mate there is very little published on the subject other than the elusive salmon research mentioned earlier. A paper titled 'Alarm signals in fishes' makes reference to it but doesn't go into any depth. I also have searched at painstaking lengths for any information on the subject without any success and have spoken to leading experts in the field that have no knowledge of any research other than the above mentioned paper. As you will have found Andy in your own searches, there is a massive amount of material on fish communication, but largely it is merely the recording of individual species and stock assessment research based on vocalisations.
I guess this is part of the reason why I have had so much difficulty in gaining acceptance of the theory.
Andy, you would have your own thoughts and experiences here and I would be very interested to hear those if you have the inclination. I'm not one to dismiss contradictory evidence, I just want to be able to put the puzzle together as accurately as I can. I have no agenda other than to work it out and have no desire to stop any particular commercial fishing. But if there is something going on with distress signals and area abandonment then Fisheries really should be addressing these issues. In all reality, the research to establish what is occurring would cost no more than probably $10000. In my opinion this is such a small price to pay if management practices can be improved to the extent that I believe they can.

Lindsay

[Hornblower]

Gee, and I thought trying to work out a GPS was bit over my head - you guys have totally lost me :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ :-/ ::) ::) ::) ::)

[Slider]

Just to add another slant to the fish communication thing - Birds are very similar to fish in that a species can be identified by its vocalisation. They also use alarm signals to alert other birds of danger. Each May spangled drongos migrate north from the southern states into Queensland and as far as New Guinea and then back south again in spring. Over the years a colony of these birds has decided that my place is a good place to stop due to the ready supply of premium mince avilable to them here. Initially we would flick the mince in the air for them to catch which they seem to enjoy and it's amazing to watch the flight speed - like lightning. In recent times some individual birds have decided that they can get to the mince before their colleagues if they pinch the mince from my hand before I flick it. Others have found that if they hover in front of me like a humming bird, they get the jump on the other birds. 1 bird in particular which seems to be the leader of the colony, is a smart ass. He/she uses a false alarm signal which when emitted causes all of the other birds (magpies, kookaburras, lorikeets, butchies, fig, blue faced honey eaters, black faced cuckoo shrikes, friar birds, wattle birds) to take off in a panicked state before they realise that they have been fooled and then return within a minute. But while they're gone, this drongo sits in front of me on his/her own waiting for the mince with no competition for the food. You can almost see the smug look on its face. Some fish also use false alarm signals for exactly the same reason. There are usually between 10 and 20 drongos here each early morning and late afternoon. I have started to recognise each bird from their behaviour as they all look very similar other than some birds having pollen plasted all around their beaks and one bird having a single white tail feather. This has helped me to interpret to some degree how fish would behave in the wild and is great fun. I have taken hundreds of photos of the drongos and will attach a few here for you all to see. Been waiting for a chance to put photos of these characters on ausfish as I think they're pretty cool.

Lindsay

[Slider]

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[seatime]

Nice pics slider, I try to stay away from drongos.

It does remind me of a humorous incident at Lake St Clair once.

A mate and myself were walking from the kiosk when a currawong swooped and took a whole pie out of my mates hand. He had it halfway to his mouth and the bird didn't touch any part of him only the pie, the last pie in the kiosk mind you. I quickly ate my sausage roll and exited stage left. :)

[seatime]

Sorry to hijack your thread Nathalie.

[quote author=Slider link=1153290658/15#16 date=1153367451]Sorry Nathalie, we have been on a different wavelength and I'm not sure if you are referring to distress signals being generated by the fish drumming muscles against the swim bladder that can be heard, or eratic swimming patterns that can be detected by other fish and sharks through the lateral line. The latter being well documented for a long time. Irrespective, you have raised a subject that requires discussion.

slider, I'm interested in that statement, is this the same sound pulse that fishfinders detect, apart from detecting the density diff between the swim bladder and surrounding water. Works best on higher frequency sounders apparently.
thanks in advance.

[Nathalie]

Hi gelsec

:)I didn't know that there were more than one kind of distress signal sent out by fish, it has been interesting, but I was referring to I think, (I am not quit sure what you would call it) "erratic swimming patterns that can be detected by other fish and sharks through the lateral line." You know how we are supposed to use our lures and SP to imitate an injured fish. I just figured that I would use the real thing. They would be in some sort of keeper and they would panic as they wouldn’t be able to get out and so send out distress signals. I thought that being small bait fish like small herring or hardy heads that the bigger fish like snapper and the like would come looking, I didn't think they would attract the ones in grey suits. But after what I have read in this thread I don't think I will try it. The only time I want to see those big teeth is on TV. :o

Nat ;)

[shaman]

Probably asking for trouble, but what if you sank the whole bucket livies and all tied on with a bit of mono in case of bities. The bucket if hammered will seperate pretty easily and while it's there you could drop a livie down on a hook next to the bucketfull of his wriggling mates and hey presto................................. 8-) 8-) 8-).......................Billy

[Slider]

Gelsec,

The answer to your question is no. The vocalisations of fish can only be detected using a hydrophone set at much lower frequencies than that for dolphins and whales. An echo sounder (I'm no expert here) will detect obstructions to the sound wave emitted by the transducer which shows as fish or other beings on the screen of the sounder. What I am talking about is actual verbal type communication between fish.

Nat, the distress signals that you are referring to, are as stated, abnormal variations in swim patterns of fish. - A fish swimming uninjured doesn't attract the attention of predator fish, but when it is injured it will swim eratically and will be detected by predator fish and sharks/dolphins through the lateral line as an abnormal vibration in the water. That same fish will emit distress vocalisations (drum muscles against the swim bladder as many as 200 times per second) that can be detected by all other fish and dolphins/sharks through their inner ear in most species and through the lateral line in some species. The purpose of the oral distress signal is to assist in the survival of same species fish and is an evolutionary trait of most of the earths' creatures to assist in the survival of all species. Many types of monkeys for example will emit such signals to protect their colleagues as will birds if say a snake is in the area. ('Alarm signals in fishes' addresses this aspect and just type in that heading to get there on the net)

Nat, your theory is excellent in that to be able to replicate the real thing is as good as it gets. But as mentioned the vocalisations are confined as are the vibrations, by the container that they are in. If you were to reduce these boundaries by whatever means, then you would certainly have a situation that would be advantageous to your fishing endeavours. Sharks will definitely be attracted, but so will other predatory species. Livies are the answer - they emit both vibration variations and also distress vocalisations. I guess that is the reason why so many good fish are caught on livies.

Lindsay

[Slider]

Hey Shaman, put them in a small mesh net and drop your livie down beside them and in theory you are on a winner.

[seatime]

slider, I think you missed my query. I'm not referring to vocalisations, rather the sound pulses emitted from the muscles drumming against the swim bladder. I queried whether this sound pulse creates a difference in the density of the water immediately surrounding the fish, and this is detected by sonar, similar to the swim bladder itself. The technology enables fish without swim bladders to also be detected by sonar.
rgds

[Slider]

Gelsec, fish vocalisations are the drumming of muscles against the swim bladder in the majority of species. Sonar can never detect these. Only a hydrophone set at appropriate low frequency levels for the target species can detect fish vocalisations. Not sure what your referring to with regards water density?

Lindsay

[CFisher]

Lindsay

Thanks for the reply.

I will reserve any comment on your theories and ideas regarding area abandonment until I have researched this a little more myself. You have obviously spent a great amount of time and thought on this topic and that is certainly admirable.

However, without any peered reviewed scientific literature (you may be sick of hearing that) your theories and ideas are unlikely to be considered by QDPI&F and in particular the Inshore Fin Fish MAC in making any management recommendations in the upcoming Inshore Fin Fish Management Plan.

I understand your frustrations with sourcing research funds as I have played the game with QFIRAC and FRDC myself. Always the same problem of limited funds to go round, so many questions to be asked.

Anyway, fine shots of the drongos and looks like you have a beautiful back yard. I miss that part of the world but certainly not the crowds.

Cheers
Andy